Native Completed North American 5-a-Side Tournament - Congrats The Rat Pack - Stats Posted!

[Catholic]

Yes, let's put Scott Ray and Redknight on first round heavy horse, makes perfect sense.

This.

I was halfway through making a lengthy post about the gold setting, but there's no point because we're getting the same attitude as we had before. BIT essentially proved (I say essentially, because the all-captain survey isn't out yet) that 1000g opens up possibilities for factions and play you never had before.

I'll state one example - before 1000g, when did you ever play a match on Nord Town that wasn't Rhodoks vs. Nords? Occasionally a team would get creative and take Vaegirs, get stomped, and go back to the classics. I can safely say I've seen every faction win Nord Town in BIT.

1k = competitive

This. I'm yet to see the I-told-you-sos from those who have (falsely) predicted that BIT is going to be a disaster because of the starting gold setting.

This isn't the thread to be discussing BIT.

Of bloody course it is. There is your one example of 1000g in the NA community. And it's worked beautifully. Why the hell would you ignore that?

I want you to take a look at the BIT single elimination bracket and then compare it to the CJTT Finals:

There was one case (out of eight) of two teams winning a map in the entire tournament. In BIT, we've already seen two and we haven't even gotten to the semifinals yet.

It has been shown time and time again that rounds are more intense and matches are more closely played in 1000g. It is not even something deniable at this point.

With that, my last word on the topic in this thread is said.

 

[Wappaw_Pizza42]

I wonder how much of that is because of the massive delay between the round robin and the start of the elimination bracket. We had something like a 3 week break in the tourney with no one playing any matches. Teams get rusty.

BIT has been a tourney where teams rarely show up on schedule and never seem to have more than 6 players when the game would finally begin. This was a problem in all the other tourneys I've been involved in, but it was more pronounced in BIT, from my experience. Scheduling a match and waiting an hour was the standard. Rescheduling was common. This was a tourney that, some would say, had teams so unmotivated to play, that they had problems getting people to show up to matches.

Then there was the matter of the admins being biased: http://forums.taleworlds.com/index.php/topic,256866.msg6382218.html#msg6382218 .
Change a rule to help out a clanmate? The BIT admin seem to think it's fine to not follow their own rules. There was a rule in place on this occasion: player subs must be submitted 48 hours beforehand.

If there was a different tourney to play at the time BIT started, I would have been in it. There was not. I don't know how many other folks feel the same way, but the above is what I took from BIT.

 

[RoBo_CoP]

and that has anything to do with 1k gold?

gtfo

 

[ClockWise]

and that has anything to do with 1k gold?

gtfo

1k would probably be for the best, yeah.

 

[Wyrdwise]

This was brought up by Juve over steam earlier.  He suggested I post my view so here's the pertinent bit:

Spoiler

Juve: 1000g or 1500g for the 5-a-Side tournament? Just getting as many people's opinions as possible.
Ghaern: why is it stuck at one or the other?
Juve: You could throw your vote in at 1250 if you'd like
Juve: or 3000
Juve: haha
Ghaern: I'd go more for 1150-1200
Juve: Hm. Why's that?
Ghaern: the common sentiments I've heard towards 1250 are that you can basically get all you want anyway just a tier down from what you'd take at 1500.
Ghaern: I feel 1000 is perhaps still too restrictive and heavily favours ranged
Ghaern: so 1150-1200 should allow for slightly more gear choices without over-blowing it
Juve: I've heard this argument from a few people, but I have yet to see any evidence that shows that 1000g favours ranged so much. The only difference I've noticed is that you have to be a bit more cautious playing as cav.
Ghaern: I haven't looked at actual gear costs to verify it 100% though
Ghaern: well the base idea is that with 1k you can only afford decent armour OR a decent shield.
Ghaern: setting cav aside here, as they generally start with poor everything so they can take on the horse..
Ghaern: so your foot basically are handicapped by having to choose instead of being able to afford moderate levels of protection from both armour and shield, a more overall quantity.
Ghaern: ranged can basically spawn with default x/bow and ammo and destroy.
Ghaern: while still having plenty left to get armour.
Juve: Did you watch GK vs. TMW this past weekend? Basically happened exactly as you're describing.
Ghaern: yeah I did
Ghaern: and the stream after as well.
Ghaern: the thing is that most teams don’t' recognize just how much potential advantage they can garner by exploiting that level of **** armour that enemy inf would have with 1k gold.
Ghaern: or they recognize it but can't pull it off.
Ghaern: I'd attribute that to the longstanding 1.5k amount
Ghaern: one thing to consider for this tourney though, is that with fewer players, individual ranged units are that much more effective.
Ghaern: so throwing a bone to the inf and cav to a lesser extent, by way of a bit more gold, might help to keep things a bit more even.
Juve: You should post on the thread, tbh. Might make some of the 1000g supporters think about it differently.

I also mentioned that individuals seem to disregard or ignore the possibility of adjusting combat and round bonuses in tandem or in place of starting gold.  I would think that these values are more responsible for the constant "snowballing" arguments than starting gold might be.

 

[maxsheba12]

Yes, let's put Scott Ray and Redknight on first round heavy horse, makes perfect sense.

Wait! You forgot the great lance part!

 

[Mad_Dawg]

Ghaern: I feel 1000 is perhaps still too restrictive and heavily favours ranged
....
Ghaern: I haven't looked at actual gear costs to verify it 100% though
Ghaern: well the base idea is that with 1k you can only afford decent armour OR a decent shield.
Ghaern: setting cav aside here, as they generally start with poor everything so they can take on the horse..
Ghaern: so your foot basically are handicapped by having to choose instead of being able to afford moderate levels of protection from both armour and shield, a more overall quantity.

The big thing here is infantry don't have to choose between armor or a shield.  You can buy a Leather Jerkin and a Heavy Round, or Ragged Outfit and a Board Shield, or a Scimitar & Leather Jerkin & Kite Shield with 1k.  The only "choice" comes down to thrown weapons.

By giving 1k+...the range units don't have to choose anymore.  They can now afford top tier armor, basic bow + arrow upgrades or an xbow can now get Siege w/ steel bolts or Heavy + Steel + Decent shield + armor. 

I've played nothing but 1k builds for months now.  Infantry is not hindered in the least.  Ranged is due to trade offs of upgraded ranged or upgraded armor/melee equip.  If you do the math, and experience 1k builds for any length of time with varied classes, you'll see this.

 

[RoBo_CoP]

Well, while we're at it, I'll bust out ye olde wall O' text.

Spoiler

Pubbing with 1500 is how we ended up with 1500 in scrims in the first place. People became accustomed to 1500 on Central POM and learned to play with it, so they eventually stopped using 1000 for scrims. As these same people started using 1500 for pubbing on POM and in scrims, they started using it on their own servers.

1500 is more fun for pubbing because it doesn't hurt weaker players as much as 1000 does. A weak player on a 1500 server can still buy decent gear every round, and doesn't feel as outclassed against stronger opponents. On 1000, they're stuck with basic gear unless they splurge on a single piece of mid-tier gear. It's less fun because their gear can't carry them as well as on 1500.
inb4 "gear doesn't carry, only skill lol" counters. Mail armor glances more swings than leather. Play the game.

1000 is more balanced for scrims because it levels out faction differences that are exaggerated on 1500. An obvious example are the Swadians, who can get a hunter and great lance in the first round on 1500, but can't even get a courser and a great lance on 1000. They also can't get warhorses in the first round (neither can Rhodoks, and Vaegirs can't get steppe chargers). It serves to weaken factions that are reliant on bump cavalry and lance cavalry in the early game.

1000 gold makes Nords a strong choice, because their archers don't gear up much past 1000 gold anyway, they have good sword cavalry (though not the best), free javelins, and their infantry maintains its strength through all phases of the game. Sarranids become more viable early-game because their archers and infantry aren't outclassed from the beginning, and their cavalry isn't nerfed as much as Swadia's. Once Sarranids get rolling they can become formidable, but on 1500 they don't have the stats to beat initial gear loadouts from other factions in the beginning so it becomes harder to gain momentum and harder still to make a comeback.

I could ramble on and on about how all of the factions are changed by 1000 and how it ends up balancing all of them, but I've done it numerous times already and I don't want to repeat myself, especially since this entire discussion has been had before and we still have "arguments" like this:

If I thought I saw a good reason to switch to 1000 gold I'd agree with you. But I don't.

Heh, Pizza's arguement is consistent atleast.

Spoiler

Nord Town, Rhodoks or Nords. In my clan, we prefer Rhodoks over Nords at 1500 gold because Rhodoks have a war horse available to them (which is only accessible first round on 1500 gold), we can get the most powerful crossbows first round with decent armor to boot, and Rhodok infantry have cleavers & javelins (making them equivalent to Nord infantry that sacrifice mid-tier armor for throwing axes). On 1000 gold we wouldn't have the warhorse, getting the best crossbow would mean skimping on most other gear, and infantry would be hard pressed to get a good cleaver and javelins while maintaining decent armor. Because of the way we prefer to play Nord Town (with 1 bump cav), the war horse is a game changer for us. We sometimes play without it, and on rare occasions we play with two, but usually we have one and usually he can make a big difference for us. Nords that want to run bump cav on Nord Town either steal a horse or they run 2 cav players, because hunters lack the armor of war horses.

Nords don't scale archers and cavalry much past 1000 gold. Their cav gets armor options on 1500 that they don't get on 1000, but their essential gear is available to them on both settings. A Nord archer can practically max out at 1500 in the first round, with good armor, decent sword, barbed arrows, and a helmet, but a 1500 Nord archer isn't much scarier than a 1000 Nord archer. You can still get a helmet, armor, regular arrows, and a full-sized sword on 1000. They really don't scale past 1000 in any significant way (a couple points of damage on a sword, a couple points of damage on arrows). This makes Nord play on 1500 a lot more infantry-focused, which is why all teams prefer to play them on closed maps. On 1000, they don't lose significant archer or cav strength compared to 1500, but they do lose a bit of strength as infantry. This makes early game for Nords on 1000 a bit more archer/cav focused, and because their archer/cav is just as effective in 1000 as in 1500 they have early-game strengths that other factions lack. Rhodoks on 1000 lose ranged power, heavy cav, and potentially lose infantry versatility, while Nords maintain ranged and cav power while only slightly losing infantry potency

Spoiler

Archers do get the odd early kill here and there but that's usually because rangers on either side are taking pot shots at each other and one was sloppy or because someone on the other side wasn't paying attention. When teams do not make mistakes in that regard, those kills tend not to happen much. Rangers do the majority of damage once they actually have targets and its up to the infantry generally to help create those targets.

As a side note, a lot of fustration on either end can come from not utitilizing basic strategies in match, such as equipment swaps, bad movement/placement of players, and class management. I realize this is a 5v5, but for the most part I still lean towards 1kg as the standard for play. So does the rest of the world.

 

[KissMyAxe]

I wonder how much of that is because of the massive delay between the round robin and the start of the elimination bracket. We had something like a 3 week break in the tourney with no one playing any matches. Teams get rusty.

It was two weeks: one week to get a late round-robin match played, another was a break. Yes, Eternal has extended the deadline for Round 1 playoffs for one week, but the fact is that all the matches except for RAFF vs KoA has already been played.

BIT has been a tourney where teams rarely show up on schedule and never seem to have more than 6 players when the game would finally begin.

And how many matches have you been to? Was it only RAFF's matches? I have had a very different view -- that is untill GreenKnight has told me about RAFF's experience. The issue has already been addressed by Eternal and me (btw, I would encourage the organizers of this tournament to adopt some standards of punctuality for teams). I'll express my sympathy to RAFF and you again, but blaming the admins or the tournament for that seems kinda silly. Had you told an admin of your experiences earlier, things would have been different.

Then there was the matter of the admins being biased: http://forums.taleworlds.com/index.php/topic,256866.msg6382218.html#msg6382218 .
Change a rule to help out a clanmate? The BIT admin seem to think it's fine to not follow their own rules. There was a rule in place on this occasion: player subs must be submitted 48 hours beforehand.

While I understand this looks bad, I think it was done for a good reason: to keep the bracket moving. I think the reason to have admins at all is to resolve tricky situations like this: no matter how detailed are the rules, they can't always account for everything or give the best solution for every situation. In fact, one might make a point that should Eternal have been a crook, you wouldn't have known about the compromise being made in the first place.

 

[Lagstro]

1500g - too much freedom/ not difficult enough for this level
1000g - limits some classes and makes others stronger
1250g - looks stupid 
1200g - a real compromise as there are still decisions to make but yields a better balance among the classes.

 

[Juve]

Updated the OP with fancy dancy graphic thanks to John.

Also updated the list of viable maps:

Closed

• San'di'bousch
• Nord Town
• Vendetta
• Port Assault
• Verloren

Open

• Reveran Village
• Ruined Fort
• Ruins
• Frosty Battle
• Field by the River

It's nearly identical to the map list from Nations' 5-a-Side but instead of Village we have Verloren. I think 10 is a good number of maps to run with, but if anyone thinks there are one or two maps that should be on the list, please post so people can discuss. Nothing wrong with going with 11 maps if there's a good reason to include the 11th.



Edit: As for the starting gold, I've asked a total of 50 members of the community so far about their preference.

1000g - 29
1500g - 15
Alternative - 6

Generally, the reason cited for 1000g has been faction balance. Many believe Vaegirs and Nords would dominate at 1500g, especially if the classes are fixed at 2 infantry, 2 archers and 1 cav. Imagine Vaegirs at 1500g with 2-2-1: two archers, both with lamellar armour. One of the archers has a khergit bow and barbed arrows, the other has a strong bow with regular arrows. The infantry would both also have lamellar, scimitars, decent shields and either javs or a spear. The horseman would have access to a steppe charger or a hunter with a heavy lance and decent armour. With 1000g, other factions arguably become more viable and playable on different kinds of maps.

On the other hand, a bit more than half of those who preferred 1500g cited overpowered archery on 1000g as their reason to run with 1500g. They claim that cavalry and infantry has too much taken away from them with 1000g, giving archers a leg up. Having 2 archers on a team of 5 potentially makes archery all the more important. Many who preferred 1500g are expecting teams with the best two archers to simply dominate with 1000g. The other major reason cited for 1500g was "it's what I'm used to."

Some people I asked said a compromise would be best. 1200g is usually what they eventually went with. The argument for this starting gold is that it gives infantry and cav a little more defence in better armour/shields to keep archery from becoming OP.



I'll admit that I myself think 1000g is more balanced. Based one what I've found with asking around the community, I can't justify changing the tournament to 1500g with so much support for 1000g. With 58% of those I asked favouring 1000g, the success we've seen in European tournaments, Nations Cup tournaments and recently in the Battle Innovation Tournament, I'm going to have to keep 1000g as this tournament's starting gold.

I would suggest for in future tournaments we explore options like what Ghaern suggested in his post; lowering round gold bonuses would provide a solution for some of the concerns with 1000g, chief among these concerns being "snowballing."

 

[sotamursu123]

1k is balanced
1,5k is ****, because it makes some factions gain access to heavy armor or heavy horses right from the start while some factions can't.
1,25k is ****, same reason as 1,5k. + looks retarded
1,2k is ****, same reason as 1,5k and 1,25k. + looks retarded

 

[Gelden]

From my experience with BIT, cav get gimped with 1000 gold.  I wouldn't want 1500 because people can get heavy horses right away, but at 1000 I have to settle for horses that can only take a few arrow hits, and usually only one choice of lance - the one I get for free.  Cav have a heck of a time trying to armor up in the short 4 rounds that we are given.

As nord cav, for example, I get free javs, but I'm stuck with my default blue tunic (+7 body armor) if I want a lance.  I haven't experienced these type of restrictions with any other class on 1000.  I saw myself go archer for the first time competitively in quite a while during BIT.

"But hey Gelphag, maybe you need to adjust your play style to the 1000 loadout instead of complaining!" I actually did *******, and I still feel gimped with 1000.  There is a huge contrast in my performance from CJT and BIT, and it's because of the lack of choices with 1000 on cav, and the empowerment of archers not having to worry so much about cav.  I don't feel any classes (except for heavy cav, which I don't play anyway) are OP with 1500, but 1000 gimps cav in my eyes.

I voted for a compromise. 1200 actually allows cav to make choices, and allows me to buy past the blue tunic without shooting myself in the foot. I'd also like to point out that one of the arguments for 1000g is "on 1500, what's the point of the lower tier armor?  It's useless, and never gets used with so much gold to spend".  On the flip side of the coin, we don't see the higher tier armor on 1000 with only 4 rounds (unless somebody goes 10-0 first 2 rounds).

We wouldn't even be having this argument, by the way, if Taleworlds balanced each faction for a certain amount of gold.  Instead, it seems they've thrown random numbers at equipment without even thinking.

The verdict has been made for 1000, but I just wanted to give a different perspective for those advocating 1000.

 

[Shemaforash]

From my experience with BIT, cav get gimped with 1000 gold.  I wouldn't want 1500 because people can get heavy horses right away, but at 1000 I have to settle for horses that can only take a few arrow hits, and usually only one choice of lance - the one I get for free.  Cav have a heck of a time trying to armor up in the short 4 rounds that we are given.

As nord cav, for example, I get free javs, but I'm stuck with my default blue tunic (+7 body armor) if I want a lance.  I haven't experienced these type of restrictions with any other class on 1000.  I saw myself go archer for the first time competitively in quite a while during BIT.

"But hey Gelphag, maybe you need to adjust your play style to the 1000 loadout instead of complaining!" I actually did *******, and I still feel gimped with 1000.  There is a huge contrast in my performance from CJT and BIT, and it's because of the lack of choices with 1000 on cav, and the empowerment of archers not having to worry so much about cav.  I don't feel any classes (except for heavy cav, which I don't play anyway) are OP with 1500, but 1000 gimps cav in my eyes.

I voted for a compromise. 1200 actually allows cav to make choices, and allows me to buy past the blue tunic without shooting myself in the foot. I'd also like to point out that one of the arguments for 1000g is "on 1500, what's the point of the lower tier armor?  It's useless, and never gets used with so much gold to spend".  On the flip side of the coin, we don't see the higher tier armor on 1000 with only 4 rounds (unless somebody goes 10-0 first 2 rounds).

We wouldn't even be having this argument, by the way, if Taleworlds balanced each faction for a certain amount of gold.  Instead, it seems they've thrown random numbers at equipment without even thinking.

The verdict has been made for 1000, but I just wanted to give a different perspective for those advocating 1000.

Completely disagree, 1000 gold cav is perfectly fine.

 

[unicorn]

Completely disagree, 1000 gold cav is perfectly fine.

bro do u even shiny hors

 

[crazyboy11]

Many who preferred 1500g are expecting teams with the best two archers to simply dominate with 1000g.

I am one of the best archers, who wants me on their team? Easy win right? 

 

[Juve]

I'll be putting a "Free Agent List" in the OP soon. Any players who are interested in joining a team should contact me or post in the thread in order to be put on this list. Potential team captains can refer to the list if they need an extra player or two for their team.

 

[Marin Peace Bringer]

I also think that it should be 1000 gold, for the same reason all the others support that.  Its more competitive and balanced across the factions.  Not to mention, during the majority of the beta, 1000 was the standard starting gold, so that's what the equipment was balanced using.

And yes it is true that its harder for cavalry to play with 1000 gold, but as a cavalry player myself, I still think 1000 is for the best from my experience.

Edit:  After looking over the rules again, I am going to have to change my mind.  Since teams are forced to use 2 infantry, 2 archers, and 1 cavalry, 1500 gold wouldn't really matter as much, so I am going to vote for 1500

 

[Courtney_The_Tranny_Orc]

Another vote for 1000G...it's just more challenging. Also, cav is a support class, so it shouldn't be at the front line getting shot anyway. Cav is meant to move in when inf & archers engage and pick off unsuspecting enemies and 1000G will allow just that. A courser and free basic sword is sufficient for this task.

 

[Green Knight]

I like the idea of alternative gold or 1500. 1200/1250/1300 is all good in my books.

I have no argument that hasn't been mentioned. I don't give a rat's ass how it 'looks' (since when was that a concern?), but I think alternative gold wins on all counts, primarily that of keeping the community mob placated and participation high.