SP Medieval New Mod: “Europa - 1300 AD” (Updates, see page 39+40)

[Barry_bon_Loyale]

awesome...

this mod looks very good and i will be downloading it when it's released.... also when i say somethings good i mean its AWSOME!!

Thank you both for the support. 

I've lately been busy working on new textures but for the time being I'm not putting all of them into the game.  I'll be posting some new screenshots soon. 

 

[Servitor]

I really like those coloured 'surcoat over mail', it really looks as if they were cloth-painted? dye-bath? forgot the name. What I mean is, they look real. Keep it up, It's great!

 

[Barry_bon_Loyale]

I really like those coloured 'surcoat over mail', it really looks as if they were cloth-painted? dye-bath? forgot the name. What I mean is, they look real. Keep it up, It's great!

Thank you very much for the support.

Screenshots are on the way.  I'm adding things to the game but also have outside obligations every once in a while (damn you real life), but I am working on them.

Soon I'll consider adding a few polls.  The polls are things that will probably regard decisions I'm ambivalent on, so I'll go with the player consensus. 

 

[Banjeeboy]

This mod looks very promising!
I'll definitely keep this thread under close surveillance in the future

 

[Barry_bon_Loyale]

Well, here are the screenshots of the things I've been working on.  Let me know what you think:

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A line of Castile Caballeros​

 

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Moorish Archers (permission to use the helmets has been requested and is pending​

 

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French Chevaliers​

 

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Teutonic Sergeants​

 

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A group of French Men-at-Arms fight a force of English Pikemen​

 

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And a few points/updates while I'm here:

This mod looks very promising!
I'll definitely keep this thread under close surveillance in the future

Good to hear and thanks for the support.

Right now, as usual, I am trying to keep up with the textures, and there are a lot of them I've done, with a lot more still to go.  Troop trees are mostly done, but now I have to decide exactly what uniforms I want to use and apply textures to them. 

The item number limit may present a problem, so to take care of that, soon I'm going to go through the item kinds text and remove all of the items not being used.  There are quite a few that are there but are not used in the game (like the black armor), and a few that can have their meshes replaced with a new texture.  There will be a lot of items, so I really have to be an accountant with the items.

Also I've been working on some small details that will really add to the mod, but I won't get into them yet.  Also, I will probably add a poll soon asking for some opinions on a matter. 

Cheers. 

 

[Agent Griff]

You know, I kind of find myself asking when I see your pikemen if they should wield shields or not. Wielding a polearm without a shield tends to increase its effectiveness, while also opening the wielder to ranged vulnerabilities. As it is, your pikemen are an ineffectual combination of both maxims. They wield both shields and spears, which prevent them from being as offensively capable as they should be. And once the enemy gets close, the shields count for nothing seeing as the troops can only block and not attack with them. So it's only a matter of time before pikemen are defeated. And you can see this problem with Native's Rhodoks as well.

One solution would be to arm them with long pikes only and no shields. This would leave them open to archers, yes, but that's where your own cavalry comes in in terms of dispersing said archers. And then multiple tactical choices develop, both for you and your enemies but this is a different discussion altogether.

One more thing that somewhat irks me is the choice of swords I've seen thus far. I don't really like those simple, small Native swords with small cross-guards. They just have a look that screams ineffective. Are they just a WIP or are they here to stay?

Another question I've got is, was the bascinet in use near the year 1300? Wouldn't the great helm and sugarloaf had been a much more widely used choice for knights?

 

[Barry_bon_Loyale]

Always good to hear from you, Agent Griff. 

You know, I kind of find myself asking when I see your pikemen if they should wield shields or not. Wielding a polearm without a shield tends to increase its effectiveness, while also opening the wielder to ranged vulnerabilities. As it is, your pikemen are an ineffectual combination of both maxims. They wield both shields and spears, which prevent them from being as offensively capable as they should be. And once the enemy gets close, the shields count for nothing seeing as the troops can only block and not attack with them. So it's only a matter of time before pikemen are defeated. And you can see this problem with Native's Rhodoks as well.

According to (recent) paintings that depict the Battle of Stirling Bridge, it is somewhat suggested that Scots used shields as well as longer polearms.  In game the unit is quite effective and the images displayed a few pages back are the highest tier of Scottish spear-wielding infantry.  For the Scots it is really a balance issue that allows them not to be cut to pieces by superior English archers.

For the English, the pikemen shown are one step below the highest English spearmen (the billmen), and as you can see some wield shields, whereas some do not.  I decided that the billmen (who have not been shown yet) will not wield any shields.  I can see your point and will consider removing the shields for the pikemen as well. 

One more thing that somewhat irks me is the choice of swords I've seen thus far. I don't really like those simple, small Native swords with small cross-guards. They just have a look that screams ineffective. Are they just a WIP or are they here to stay?

I will consider adding more swords and for the most part the choice of weaponry is not set in stone.  I'd prefer to keep the Native swords because I wouldn't be very good at making new ones and it keeps things simpler.  I know ahead of time that some new weapons will be added, and I'll reconsider the swords when I move into that area. 

Another question I've got is, was the bascinet in use near the year 1300? Wouldn't the great helm and sugarloaf had been a much more widely used choice for knights?

Quite widely used as far as sources suggest.  The one seen on the Scottish pikemen and French men-at-arms was originally in Native but removed for some reason (I don't know why).  It was always one of my favorite helmets.  There is a discussion about medieval Scottish armor somewhere in the Historical Section of the forum and in it, the pictures depict quite a few soldiers using that exact model of helmet. 

Images of historical leaders such as William Wallace, John "Red" Comyn, Robert the Bruce, a few others, show them wearing that style of helmet.  So from what I can see it was a pretty common helmet in the year 1300. 

The great helm and sugarloaf helm would be common amongst knights, and that is depicted on the first set on screenshots on page 1.  The French chevaliers are mostly lancers in this mod, and are not the highest tier of cavalry (unlike the French knights).  In the mod, most knights, such as the English or French, will be wearing a variation of the great helm.  There will be some exceptions, such as some Scottish knights.  The sources I've seen suggest than many Scottish knights wore kettle helmets and other variations, though some of the wealthier ones used great helms.

 

[falcogr]

i really like the seargents,
and the archers look prety nice too.

 

[Skot the Sanguine]

Teutonic Knights, I think I just got a chubby!  Can't wait to start Crusading .

 

[Barry_bon_Loyale]

i really like the seargents,
and the archers look prety nice too.

Thanks for the support. 

Teutonic Knights, I think I just got a chubby!  Can't wait to start Crusading .

I'm honored. 

Yes, the Teutonic Knights will feature prominently in the mod, right now I have just the infantry done but soon I'm going to start working on cavalry as well. 

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Assistance Recruiting​

Well, the mod if moving alone well now, and recently I took a look at the troop trees and realized I'm further along that I thought I was (one kingdom has all of their uniforms done and two more are close to being done).  So now I thought it would be a good time to ask for assistance and/or teams members to help out with the mod. 

I need two positions really: scene editor and scripter for the module system.  For both positions your work will largely be cut out for you. 

For the scene editor, I'm looking to redo the cities to more match the historic location and have a change of scenery.  The castles and villages are fine as is, but some may need to be added because there might not be enough numerically for the map.  For the scenes I can give you a very good idea of what I'm looking for and you can just make the buildings.  I'd like to add the scene props myself if no one objects, and can probably handle scene entry points as well as the ai terrain. 

For the person who handles the module system, I'm looking for someone who is familiar with the system and is clever.  I don't think we'll be need to pull off major breakthroughs, but they should be able to incorporate bits and pieces of other module systems as well as work with scenes, quests, etcetera. 

Also, I'm trying to plan it so that some of the more tedious work of putting troops and items into the module system will actually be reduced to sort of bare-bones type of work.  That way the module system can set it up and the more detailed editing can be done with text editors. 

For both positions, really I'm looking for people to set it up and not have to go into major details.  The reason I'd like some help/team members is because it saves a lot of time thus accelerating the process, it will allow me to focus on other areas of the mod, and it can get the community involved.  If you are involved, you will get full credit for all of the work you provide.   


So if you are interested, just drop me a pm and let me know.  Keep in mind I may not have something for you to work on all the time so please bear with me with the down time.  For scene editors, it would be nice if you provide some example or your work (pictures, mods, anything will do).  For scripters, well, I suppose I'll have to take your word for it and play it by ear. 

Thanks and cheers.   

 

[Skot the Sanguine]

I was thinking about the shield/no shield issue for Pikemen and wonder if there was a way to command their use similar to ranged weapon vs melee.  Since the game allows the player to tell his men when to hold fire or to fire at will, is there a way to trick the engine into thinking the pike is a "ranged" weapon?  Or perhaps tightening formation will have them take out the pike but loosening formation will cause them to use swords/shields etc.

Also, throwing shame to the wind, if there are villages on the map, could you put the village of "Stadler" due east of Munich?  It was an ancestor's fief during this actual time period.  Would be nice to have my usual character of Baron Wolfgang von Stadler actually being "of Stadler" as the name suggests    Just figured I would put it out there

 

[Barry_bon_Loyale]

I was thinking about the shield/no shield issue for Pikemen and wonder if there was a way to command their use similar to ranged weapon vs melee.  Since the game allows the player to tell his men when to hold fire or to fire at will, is there a way to trick the engine into thinking the pike is a "ranged" weapon?  Or perhaps tightening formation will have them take out the pike but loosening formation will cause them to use swords/shields etc.

I honestly don't know how that would be accomplished, but I think tricking the engine into think pikes are ranged weapons may produce some awkward results.  I'm not sure, though.

This is somewhat of a conundrum.  I've tested spearmen against regular archers (not even high-level archers), and even with the shields, they were cut to pieces without inflicting barely any casualties.  Without the shield, they could lose 1/4 of their men within seconds of stepping in range, and probably wouldn't even make it to the archers.

On the other hand, their combat abilities are somewhat impeded by their shield and they don't fair well against high-tier swordsmen. 

One thing I will have to test is the effectiveness of English billmen (no shield) against archers and regular infantry. 

Also, throwing shame to the wind, if there are villages on the map, could you put the village of "Stadler" due east of Munich?  It was an ancestor's fief during this actual time period.  Would be nice to have my usual character of Baron Wolfgang von Stadler actually being "of Stadler" as the name suggests    Just figured I would put it out there

Since you asked nicely I don't see why not.  If you have any pictures, diagrams, or interesting tidbits to make the village more unique let me know.  I'm looking to add things to the villages to make them more interesting. 

 

[Skot the Sanguine]

Thank you!

Other than the fact it is due east of Munich just on the German side of the modern Austrian-German border (and NNW of Salzburg), there is not much I know.  There seems to be a forested area on the Austrian border, but that might be modern since it helps as a barrier today.  There is also a small lake to the south.  What it looked like at the time or even if it was more than just a collection of farms it seems to be today is a whole different matter.

All I know of the family itself is that for about three generations (known) they served under Duke Wittelsbach of Bavaria from roughly 1280-1330's.  From what I read of the time, my guess is that when one of the Wittelsbach's tried to get the throne of the HRE (and failed) a lot of his land went to the winner, and presumably the family fief was given to one of their vassals.  Eventually the line went to Bohemia/Austria, the latter being where they are today (in Vienna).

Not too much to help customize the town, unfortunately.  I think the word Stadler actually is linked to the word barn....so maybe having a more mill/crop storage and fields might be good.

The family crest supposedly was http://www.houseofnames.com/fc.asp?sId=&s=Stadler

Also, I found this link in case you want to make a variety of heraldric surcoats and need ideas.

http://www.wappenbuch.de/index.htm



Two side notes I wanted to ask/mention are:

A) Is there a way to solidify alliances or prevent war between two factions?  (namely the HRE and Teutonic Knights, since except for a small scuffle over...Danzig?...they did not fight, especially since the Teutonic Knights were a German dependent order and had much land in it [not to mention recruits].  That fight was also between Teutonic Knights and I think Brandenburg, and not the whole of the HRE.

B) Are you planning on refraining from the cliche and excessive use of horned/winged helmets for the Teutonic Knights?  It seems that because two helmets in all the known drawings happen to have such shapes on them and Eisenstein makes a movie with them, now all of the brothers have those helmets in every friggen game with Teutonic Knights.  [Also, one of those two was on the Bishop of Dorpat during the Lake Peipus Battle, and he wasn't even a Teutonic Knight!]

 

[GodsHand]

Daaaamn looks great can't wait til it comes out =D

 

[Barry_bon_Loyale]

Thank you!
-Snip- -snip- in the name of brevity.

Not too much to help customize the town, unfortunately.  I think the word Stadler actually is linked to the word barn....so maybe having a more mill/crop storage and fields might be good.

The family crest supposedly was http://www.houseofnames.com/fc.asp?sId=&s=Stadler

The village shall be included in the game, so hopefully you will be able to enjoy that. 

Also, I found this link in case you want to make a variety of heraldric surcoats and need ideas.

http://www.wappenbuch.de/index.htm

Actually yes, some of those are very interesting, and I can always use new designs for surcoats.  So thank you. 

A) Is there a way to solidify alliances or prevent war between two factions?  (namely the HRE and Teutonic Knights, since except for a small scuffle over...Danzig?...they did not fight, especially since the Teutonic Knights were a German dependent order and had much land in it [not to mention recruits].  That fight was also between Teutonic Knights and I think Brandenburg, and not the whole of the HRE.

Great question.  I believe there is a way to stop war from being randomly declared, and that will certainly play into the mod.  Since the mod is built around 1300 and all of the interesting conflicts, it wouldn't be right for kingdoms like England and Scotland to be at peace.  On the other hand, it would be bad for England to randomly be at war with Novgorod and have to trek the entire distance of Europe to fight a single battle. 

The kingdoms at war will be decided ahead of time, based on actual conflicts at the time (kingdoms at peace will be at peace).  I'm hoping that eventually random war declaring will kick in and kingdoms will be able to declare war on neighboring kingdoms (and the play will certainly have the ability to instigate war, granted he has the influence). 

B) Are you planning on refraining from the cliche and excessive use of horned/winged helmets for the Teutonic Knights?  It seems that because two helmets in all the known drawings happen to have such shapes on them and Eisenstein makes a movie with them, now all of the brothers have those helmets in every friggen game with Teutonic Knights.  [Also, one of those two was on the Bishop of Dorpat during the Lake Peipus Battle, and he wasn't even a Teutonic Knight!]

Again, another great question.  As I've planned it, only one Teutonic lord will have horns on his helmet, and that will be the Grand Master himself.  None of the Teutonic lords will have horns, and none of the knights/cavalry units will have horns.  So, just one, no more than that.   

It's very funny you mention the Eisenstein movie Alexander Nevsky, as it's one of my favorite movies (I'm a film major).  Of course, it is mainly propaganda and certainly not a credible historical account.  Not to mention Eisenstein has a knack for having his villains kill infants. 

While I was reading about the movie, I found a very fascinating note in the book, Battles of the Medieval World 1000-1500.  It regards to the Battle of Lake Peipus, and it's portrayal in Alexander Nevsky, it said, "Within the Teutonic Order, personal coats-of-arms were forbidden and beards were compulsory." 

I originally gave the Teutonic lords individual coats-of-arms with interesting designs (like eagles and a split human face) but given that information I'll have to go back and given them variations of the black cross on white tunic.  Of course, what I will do is take the original, interesting designs and just give them to the Holy Roman Empire lords. 

Daaaamn looks great can't wait til it comes out =D

Thank you for the support.  I hope you enjoy the mod when it comes out. 

 

[Skot the Sanguine]

With regards to the town of Stadler, I figured it was a shot in the dark.  The fact that you are actually putting it in the game is greatly pleasing to me, anything else would just be a bonus!

As for Teutonic Knights, as you said they were not allowed to have individual coat-of-arms (or bright colors, fur, ornate things, etc) and about the beards may be true, though I can't remember if it was a rule or simply the style....now I will have to dig into my book on them and see if it is mentioned in their rules.  Also glad to hear only the Grandmaster has that helm, good choice.

About their surcoats is mixed.  They indeed were standardized, but exactly what is the question.  The lower ranks (anything below a Knight) wore a black Tau cross http://www.gocek.com/christiansymbols/images/taucrs.gif on a light grey surcoat.  Only the knight brothers themselves were allowed to wear the white surcoat and black cross.  The Grandmaster had a HRE eagle on his cross, as is often seen, but no one else....but how about the cross itself?

Many sources say it was a simple Latin cross with no flairs at the end:  http://www.geocities.com/thetropics/lagoon/1814/nemec.jpg
Other sources suggest a maltese cross http://www.kelticklankirk.com/Knight_in_chainmail_with_Cross_shield.jpg

When I talked to the author of the book I mentioned before, he said that both have good supporting evidence but that the latter cross type probably came into use around the year 1300 or a few decades earlier, while the former cross type was the oldest style, but still was used throughout.  Either would probably be fine during this period, even both.

Personally I always liked the second type, which is what I have on my own surcoat for my suit of armor: 
http://img84.imageshack.us/img84/4756/dscsm0107eq6.jpg

 

[Calathar]

i guess i will be a bandit raiding marienburg then and i'll add polish coat-of-arms by myself  anyways,looking forward for your mod,mr Barry

 

[Barry_bon_Loyale]

The Grandmaster had a HRE eagle on his cross, as is often seen, but no one else....but how about the cross itself?

Many sources say it was a simple Latin cross with no flairs at the end:  http://www.geocities.com/thetropics/lagoon/1814/nemec.jpg
Other sources suggest a maltese cross http://www.kelticklankirk.com/Knight_in_chainmail_with_Cross_shield.jpg

When I talked to the author of the book I mentioned before, he said that both have good supporting evidence but that the latter cross type probably came into use around the year 1300 or a few decades earlier, while the former cross type was the oldest style, but still was used throughout.  Either would probably be fine during this period, even both.

The variety of crosses used by the Teutonic Knights is always interesting, and I often add in different shapes and variations to make it more interesting.  A long time ago I came across a very large select of .gif based medieval heraldry images and they had a nice selection of crosses, including tau. 

Personally I always liked the second type, which is what I have on my own surcoat for my suit of armor: 
http://img84.imageshack.us/img84/4756/dscsm0107eq6.jpg

A fellow collector/enthusiast - very nice suit you have there.  I myself try my best to collect medieval armor, but only have a few medieval helmets.  Sometime when I have more money I'll get into collecting the actual armor. 

i guess i will be a bandit raiding marienburg then and i'll add polish coat-of-arms by myself  anyways,looking forward for your mod,mr Barry

Well, you may not need to make the Polish coat-of-arms yourself, since I am considering adding them as a faction.  It's the file size and item count I'm worried about, but we'll see. 

For the time being I'm still working on textures, gathering items, and doing map work.  I'm also assembling things in-game so I can post some screenshots soon, but I'll have to see how that works out. 

 

[Skot the Sanguine]

I had a chance to check several books and none speak of a rule requiring the brothers to have beards.  One of the books actually quotes the order's rules word for word, so I think whoever wrote in the source you read that beards were a rule is wrong.  However, it did say the brothers were forbidden to have gold or silver ornamentation or wear bright colors.  Regards.

 

[Barry_bon_Loyale]

I had a chance to check several books and none speak of a rule requiring the brothers to have beards.  One of the books actually quotes the order's rules word for word, so I think whoever wrote in the source you read that beards were a rule is wrong.  However, it did say the brothers were forbidden to have gold or silver ornamentation or wear bright colors.  Regards.

Fair enough.  I'll make it a mix of some having beards, some not.  And I'll be sure that they don't have gold or silver ornaments.  Cheers for that. 

For the time I'm really making headway on the textures.  I'm learning a lot as I go a along and have been working on additions to the typical meshes (for kings and other nobility).  Things are going a lot better than I have expected, but I still have a good ways to go.

I'm making good progress on the Scots and the French, and am starting to do more work on the Moors. 

Other features are starting to work as well, but I'll hold off discussing them until they are further developed.