Amman d Stazia
Master Knight
welcome aboard. Hope it will be a long time before any arseholes find this...
the story so far (less graphics and spam)
We still don't have a decent Napoleonic mod. This must change. Therefore I propose:
The Peninsular War
The year is 1811 and Napoleon, extending his continental system throughout mainland Europe in order to strangle British trade has seized Spain and gone on to take control of the whole of the Iberian peninsular, setting up his own brother, Joseph as king of Spain. This is a disaster for the British, who have lost their only foothold on the continent. Now, after several years of campaigns , the British have retreated behind the lines of Torres Vedras in Portugal. The French wait, eager to retake Portugal, and end the annoyance that is: The Peninsular war.
Units available at the moment..
British
The 24th, (fictional, roughly based on the 28th in terms of uniform)
Centre company officer
Centre company private
Light company sergeant
Royal Foot Artillery crewman
The 95th
Officer
Private
French
The 21st
Centre company officer
Fusilier
Grenadier
So yes, I'm hoping I can attract a few other modders to this cause... didn't you say you were in a Napoleonic mood at one point Highlander?
Stuff I'd like to get in
-Animations, I've already done a new musket reload (which many of you may have seen in that PN vid) I've also done some new melee musket animations and I hope to do some other things which'll give it more of a period feel.
-The whole morale and formation codes.. possibly the main thing which makes a Napoleonic mod possible and exciting at the moment.. and the prospect of possible having light, line and heavy infantry operating as seperate units rather than all being lumped together under "archer"
Anyway, my first thought is possibly creating something akin to the custom battle mod to begin with... just to test out some ideas and get models ingame.
STUFF NEEDED
-I'm really no scripter... not at all, not an ounce. I've done all my testing of rigging and suchlike with the custom item editor.. so anyone who can help with the basic stuff would be much appreciated.. Highlander is doing a cracking job with the advanced stuff
-Fellow modelers! I've got uniforms covered and hope to cover some weapons (fingers crossed.. swords at least I know I can do) but it'd be great to get a large variety of weapons from this era nocking about.. also scene props buildings.. and possibly fortresses... eventually. I'll focus on having troops running about first.
- A map.. Hussey has offered me a map of the peninsular, I'm debating wether I should focus the action on a much smaller area (initially at least) any ideas or suggestions here would be good... a small detailed section with specific objectives for both French and British players would be ideal..
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Dude! Those uniforms are superb!
Did you really model the straps as separate or does it just look that way? I can already tell this will be one of my favorite mods!
Also, it's nice to see something that looks like it's going to be a troop upgrade system based on ranks. Always wanted to see that.
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I was and I still am. Unfortunately I underestimated the number of models needed. I'm happy that you started this mod.
If there is any small-medium constribution, I could do, tell me. Since my models won't reach the quality of yours, I can screw that.
I'm just not up for being the main scripter, that's too much for me right now.
Mirathei made a artillery script recently. Have you checked it out? I haven't. If it works well, you could use it, otherwise I would volunteer to make a large-scale artillery thing for you.
Edit: I just made a pretty good, complex and realistic physics system for a baseball mod (), which could easily be used as a base for that.
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As with wild west, I'm interested too - I can help you out with sounds and a few models that can be used with 1866 too if you'd like. Great uniforms though.
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Well, if I can stay away from CoD4 and get back to coding, you can definitely have the formation scripts when I finish. I am thinking about posting the work I have already in a thread in the forge, so serious modders can look at my ideas and make suggestions, or make their own multiple formation scripts since I am going way too slow and it will be winter by the time it is finished at the pace I am going now. I would do this basically just so my ideas would get out their and better coders can use my ideas to make a better system if they so choose (I am still going to work on my version though).
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Far more historically correct would be German troops of the Grand Duchy of Berg fighting on the French side.
From 1809 on two squadrons of the Cevau-légeres fought in Spain, attached to the Imperial Guard in Madrid. They remained with the Guard throughout their stay in Spain.
The 1st and the 2nd Infantry Regiment went to Spain in 1809, too. They served in the Siege of Gerona and returned to Germany in 1811.
In 1810, the 3rd Infantry Regiment was sent to Spain and stayed there till 1813.
Well, I would love to see some troops of the Duchy in this mod ...
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Given that they look to be a fairly simple reskin of the standard French uniform, who knows.. but I do want to get my basic troops sorted out first. Next on my agenda are French officers and from there onto a few basic cavalry types I think. After that I'll need to think about weapons and getting all those models ingame and hopefull releasing some kind of basic beta. After that.. we'll see.
That's the plan anyway.
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Amazing models, there!
The Napoleonic Wars are actually my favorite period of history, and am always excited/let down by attempts to bring the era to the gaming world. There's a lot of good mods that deal with Napoleon but not a lot of good games.
I would like to offer my services to you, but I don't know how much help I can be. I can provide sounds for artillery, troop sounds, and so forth.
I could also offer to make a start-up screen for you (which is something I really enjoy doing). You can view an example of my work here:
http://forums.taleworlds.com/index.php/topic,40938.0.html
Other than that, good luck with the mod. Hope it goes well.
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Good work, although the gorget is a bit deformed. Also the coat looks too long compared with this plate:
Officer's coats were generally shorter than that of the ordinary ranks.
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no pics of the Brits. (Artillery)
French Line Artillery: 4pdr. gun (not the most useful picture, I know):
French Guard Artillery: 12pdr. gun (of the Old Guard, BTW):
Hope that helps. I'll try to find more, if needed.
EDIT:
Le système Gribeauval:
http://www.napoleon-series.org/military/organization/systeman/c_systeman.html
http://pagesperso-orange.fr/minismodels/technique/doc_artillerie/gribeauval01.htm
The System An XI Guns:
http://www.napoleon-series.org/military/organization/systeman/c_systeman3.html
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I think Highlander, that a 6 pounder would be appropriate for the size of battles we're dealing with
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This is just a very early WIP. There will be a lot more detail. I just wanted to know, is it about the type of cannon you mean?
(click to show/hide)
« Last Edit: August 13, 2008, 07:35:33 pm by Highlander »
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So far the model is great!
But IMO the texture of the gun barrel looks too pale.
EDIT (sorry, in German):
Highlander, in der Realität würde die Lafette beim ersten Schuss auseinanderfallen. Die beiden Seitenteile der Lafette müssten an zwei Stellen noch miteinander verbunden werden, siehe Markierungen in der Zeichnung unten:
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Depends what you'd like to do... I was going to do those basic weapons myself, but of course wouldn't mind too much if someone else did them. Militaryheratige.com (or something along those lines) has some great ref pictures. What I was going to do was
India pattern brown bess musket
British infantry rifle (now known as the baker rifle)
Charleville 1777 pattern musket
Of course if you're thinking more of civillian rifles there's a hell of a lot of variation there and not so many ref pics that I'm aware of... lots of ref pics of the various flintlock pistols used by people though.
« Last Edit: August 14, 2008, 11:59:47 pm by Dain Ironfoot
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Dain, are you sure you won't use the helmets Stefano made for PN? Hope you think about it again.
And what do you plan to put in the first release? Rather a early release or a late one?
There has been some progress on the artillery. The battle scripts are about to be done. What's left is putting some soldiers next to the cannons who 'use' them and the free map stuff like restricting the firing according to the supply of ammunition, gun powder and stuff. I'll send you a preview of all the artillery changes soon
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, it actually looks even better in motion. Turned out better than I expected.
Barry_bon_Loyale PMed me some cannon sounds which really add to the atmosphere. Together with blow back animations it looks pretty good and from my testing the gameplay is quite good too (This was the last time those crossbowmen use their hold this position tactic ).
Some more things I'd need to know:
Cannon values: How frequently and how fast do these 6-pdr cannons shoot? Currently I use at most 2 shots a minute and about 50 mps.
Weapon reach is not important, there is no situation where the cannons have to shoot more than 300 metres long, which such a cannon easily passes, right?
Howitzers: Used in the PW? If so, in field battles as well?
Ammunition: Have there been only round shots or case-shots and maybe explosive ammunition for howitzers?
Sorry about my lag of knownledge there
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- The French used howitzers in Spain.
French Line Artillery batteries consisted of 8 cannons: 6 guns and 2 howitzers.
Horse Artillery batteries usually had 6 cannons: 4 guns (6-pdr.) and 2 howitzers.
In the battlefield several batteries could form a grand battery (sometimes of more than 100 guns) to achieve devastating fire power.
- Ammunition: the whole range of deadly BS - round shots, case-shots, canister shots, grenades.
- Fire rate: 2 or 3 shots per minute for a 6-pdr. would be realistic. Well-trained gun crews could achieve a quite surprisingly high rate of fire, some eye witnesses reported up to 8 shots per minute - but maybe that are cock-and-bull stories.
- Range will be no problem.
More info: http://napoleonistyka.atspace.com/artillery_tactics.htm
French artillery: http://napoleonistyka.atspace.com/artillery_Napoleon.html
British artillery: http://napoleonistyka.atspace.com/British_artillery.htm
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Those look brilliant Highlander! Interesting how you added the artillery to the battlefield commands... I'm still vaguely wondering if it's possible to have troops divided into light and line still with the new tactics kit.. I'd love to have Light, Line and heavy as seperate commandable units.. 2 units of cavalry would be lovely too and would allow a lot of tactics..
I'll think about Stephano's helmets, and ask him possibly. The tartleton will mainly be for officers now anyway.. but I'm just having something of a streak of wanting to try modeling things. That'll probably fall off once I hit the slog of gun modeling and texturing (something I've never really done before) the fact that I seem to have lost my memory stick full of reference pictures will probably kill my modeling passion too..
I'd love to release early if possible.. but there's still a lot of work to do, especially in terms of weapons models.
With the cannon ammunition lets keep it simple with either canister or roundshot. If the gameplay is good, we'll stick to historic values. But if the AI marches straight up only to be decimated by our
EDIT: Ha, found my memory stick, back to work
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(omitted some posts which were repeats of previous)
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I'll do the less famous stuff if you'd like - it gives me a bit of freedom in making it easier as I don't have to be as accurate.
Flintlock - (by Buxton)
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are all the uniforms going to be "parade" type, or are you going to do some of them in campaign dress to?
mabye someone in brown pants? or realy dirty white ones to make it look like they have been in the field for a long time?
they uniforms you have made so far is fantastic work by the way
-A valid point from Gunfreak!!!!!
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Artillery is nearly done, by the way. What's left is to fix a small problem with the aiming, the positioning of the foot gunners and some minor things like stealing guns after battle.
Howitzers in the foreground, cannons in the background.
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Looks great!
Concerning the gunners: Will they actually fight during the battle like infantry when they are attacked? Or will they just be some kind of scene props?
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Normal troops that stand near the cannon doing nothing, but they will shoot when there are enemies near them.
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That's perfect and will add some spice to the battles!
Another question: Can the enemy artillery be destroyed/silenced during battle? Or will they continue firing till the end even after all gunners are killed
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Just shoot the gunners and the cannons will be unable to fire. The problem is that the AI is too stupid and usually leaves the cannons unprotected behind. Those cannons have no chance against a small group of cavalry.
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looks like you guys don't need much advice/information, you know your stuff...
I might suggest though, that for the map area, and for unit variety, to look at the 1808/09 Salamanca/Corunna campaign?
That would allow the involvement of Imperial Guard units, as well as the quainter old-style Spanish uniforms & troops, while the Brits had all sorts represented in this campaign.
Whoever suggested the French Chasseur a Pied have rifles was wrong, Napoleon ordered them withdrawn several years earlier (03 or 04, I think)..
As far as cannons are concerned: I've noticed that enemy AI always follow enemy heroes/lords. Do you think that making cannons 'heroes' would lead to enemy AI sticking closer to them?
Also, (treading lightly, oh so lightly) can I tentatively point out that under native conditions, any unit will swiftly become a raggle-taggle of all possible unit types and ranks?
It would be a bit unpleasant to besiege a supposedly French-held fortress, and find that half the garrison was highlanders and riflemen!
Just my tuppeny worth. If you want, I am happy to offer historical notes for this mod. I am pretty clued up on the pen. campaigns, including obviously the Corunna one I suggested just now. Don't ask me to texture or script, your stuff is way better. On top of which my time is limited...
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As far as unit trees are concerned, it's going to be a fairly linear progression. You wont see light companies becoming riflemen, or line infantry from the 28th becoming Highlanders. With the sergeants and other NCOs it's simply going to be a choice between that or simply becoming a veteran version of the original unit. In other words it's mainly an aesthetic thing. We don't want armies of sergeants. There wont be any neutrals, so there'll be no situation where the French could rescue British troops. This certainly wont be a native reskin.
I'd rather stick with my current time period for various reasons in terms of gameplay and my uniforms (I'd have to redo my French uniforms. It's fairly ahistorical for them to have these particular uniforms already, so I may shift the time period a year forward anyway) but advice on where'd be a particularly exciting/empty (more freedom) place to set the mod would be most welcome.
« Last Edit: August 24, 2008, 08:32:24 pm by Dain Ironfoot
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I've thought of something else I need a little on, French Ranks.. sous-officier and caporaux are sergeant and corporal equivilent I'm guessing... is there a NCO rank before that? The French striping system confuses me somewhat. I can see that a sergeant simply has a band by his cuff, while a corporal has a red chevron..
Here is an early thought on the British troop tree. If by separating the light, line and heavy companies we can do something cool with multiple formations, I'll seperate them. As I said above, NCOs are mainly an aesthetic thing. Don't want an army of sergeants.
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This should get you going on that: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ranks_in_the_French_Army.
Good luck on this awesome piece of work!
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Highlander says they can shoot, so some will be armed with muskets... others possibly with rammers and other bits of kit.. I still know little about how artillery works myself and so my plans are all only temporary y'understand. I'll have to work out how to get officers in there too..(if I can, otherwise Arty officer uniform will be player only)
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Allright, uploading the preview.
I'll rather post the explanation of the system here, so that other people can make suggestions as well.
Okay let's start right away:
In your army you have an artillery commander, who administrates the guns and ammunition. By talking to him, you can access the army's magazine and put your cannon items there (you can buy them at the weapon merchant). Besides that you have to give him ammunition (gunpowder and cannonballs). You lose ammunition with every shot, so you have to keep buying new ammo.
What you also need are foot gunners, who shoot the cannons. In the preview you can get some of them by talking to the commander (for testing).
In battle then, you have to order your cannons to shoot via backspace menu.
Be warned that cannons are completely ineffective in MaB's extremely hilly terrains, so you should test in flat ones. There are also some bugs, but I think you should get an idea of how the system works. Don't expect a perfect mod, it's just a preview.
Gonna pm you the link now
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As far as cannons are concerned: I've noticed that enemy AI always follow enemy heroes/lords. Do you think that making cannons 'heroes' would lead to enemy AI sticking closer to them?
Looking at the code, they follow the averange position of all enemies, I think. However, I don't think artillery should be too overrated.
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Astonishing work highlander, I was talking with Dain regarding whether or not mortars and congreve rockets would be feasible? We came to the conclusion that neither or us had the foggiest so it was best to ask you. Mortars would be in your own iterest as well, the coehorn was the probably the most populous single piece of artillery in the world, Dutch designed in the1740's I think, with variations used by almost every nation for the next 130 years.
One question, are the artillery stationary?
You asked regarding Stephano's helmets, I have told Dain he is more than welcome to use any artwork from PN.
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Cannons are brilliant... one question though, is it possible to have your artillery officer stick with the guns rather than be counted as infantry? Also since the guns are static, we can add exta bits of detail later..
« Last Edit: August 25, 2008, 07:18:18 pm by Dain Ironfoot »
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I was talking with Dain regarding whether or not mortars and congreve rockets would be feasible? We came to the conclusion that neither or us had the foggiest so it was best to ask you. Mortars would be in your own iterest as well, the coehorn was the probably the most populous single piece of artillery in the world, Dutch designed in the1740's I think, with variations used by almost every nation for the next 130 years.
Rockets, weren't they only used in sieges? And mortars could be made easily, they'd work similar to howitzers, with a little bit more shoot high.
Quote from: Ealdormann Hussey on August 25, 2008, 12:49:17 pm
One question, are the artillery stationary?
They are. There is not much point in making them moveable. They are spawned at the highest position in 30 metres and even if I could make a script to move them, which would be highly complicated, I don't see any use for it. I mean where else would you put them?
Quote from: Dain Ironfoot on August 25, 2008, 07:13:35 pm
Cannons are brilliant... one question though, is it possible to have your artillery officer stick with the guns rather than be counted as infantry? Also since the guns are static, we can add exta bits of detail later..
Possable, yes. Feel free to suggest any details, that come into your mind.
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Nope, the experimental rocket corp founded by colonel conreve worked in a similar manner to the horse artillery, have a peek here:
Notoriously erratic, even in the 1840's when they put fins on for spin they were fairly innacurate, back during the peninsular war they're only method or stability was the poles.
Quote from: Dain Ironfoot on August 25, 2008, 07:13:35 pm
Cannons are brilliant... one question though, is it possible to have your artillery officer stick with the guns rather than be counted as infantry? Also since the guns are static, we can add exta bits of detail later..
By bits of detail do you mean limbers caissons and horse teams?
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Bits and pieces, yes... somewhen.
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Possable, yes. Feel free to suggest any details, that come into your mind.
Good.. aside from the fact he ran off, cannons work brilliantly. It'll be nice to have him there overseeing the guns (Artillery officer uniform is really cool)
« Last Edit: August 26, 2008, 02:14:08 am by Dain Ironfoot »
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Next I'll fix the artillery officer and try to improve the effects. I want to have dust everywhere around the cannons.
Maybe I'll do grenade ammo for howitzers, too. Canister shots, however, wouldn't turn out well, I'm afraid. I made some shotguns for 1866, but it wasn't that good.
Edit:
And I think we have to find a way to make the terrain less hilly, don't we? I mean would any officer choose a hilly terrain for battle? Exept for guerillas maybe. Besides that, such MaB extreme hill terrains don't even exist, I think.
« Last Edit: August 26, 2008, 06:57:19 am by Highlander »
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Oooh, artillery. I'm salivating in anticipation Highlander! Well done.
Dain,
Are you sticking to the standard sandbox-style of Native or structuring the campaign more with scripts? If so, how will you represent the balance of forces? The English armies will be penned up behind the Lines of Torres and likely to get hammered by French armies using the standard M&B native system. Would you start the campaign pre-or-post Massena's defeat and call for retreat?
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Highlander
Well we should have varying terrains and some terrains in which cannon are more or less effective... will have to think about the map.. still trying to think of ideas there.. also need to have a general look at the terrain in the peninsular..
Markus:
Ideally, yes we'd have some kind of scripted campaign. However as I've said before, I am utterly useless at that area.. coasting on Highlander's good will at the moment.. somewhen I'm going to have to bite the bullet and start fiddling more with the module system which'll be a huge roadblock as my time is so so limited. But I will do it.
Will also be related to the map chosen and the historical situation will probably be decided based on that and gameplay. We'll have to see.. I'm taking things one step at a time. But any ideas anyone has will be great! I'm thinking of possibly shifting the time to 1812 to give a more even footing, but we'll see. Definitely leaning towards post Sabugal..
In other news, been on something of a rigging spree. Almost rigged all the uniforms shown + variations..
Also does..
Marie-Louise -Soldat - Caporal - Sergent - Sergent-Major
or for non sous-officiers: soldat - Vielle culotte - Vrai Bougre - briscard
(where due to the lack of a chosen man/lance corporal equivilent, First sergeant (Sergent-Major) is the equivalent of the British sergeant)
sound right?
« Last Edit: August 26, 2008, 08:40:53 am by Dain Ironfoot »
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Look up Zaro's graphical enhancement thread. He has made a plug-in to make terrain less hilly. Might be of use to you.
Dain: what program do you use for rigging and do you, by any chance, know of any good rigging tutorials (not so much how to learn a rigging program, but to learn how to do the actual rigging of normal armours/clothing)?
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Dain asked me to help him with the French ranks. I'm not a specialist in making fancy troop trees, but I'll do my best.
Marie-Louise - Homme de Troupe (instead of 'soldat') - Caporal - Sergent - Sergent-Major
Possibly followed by this ranks: Adjutant-sous-Officier (Senior NCO) - Porte-Aigle ('Eagle-bearer' - actually there were the 1e, 2e and 3e P.-A. carrying the flag) - Sous-Lieutenant and Lieutenant (Company officers).
(OK, that would be a whole bunch of officers running around the battlefield, but at least the Porte-Aigles would be a picturesque addition to the regular troops.)
IMO the terms vielle culotte - vrai Bougre - briscard could very well used for non sous-officiers.
A Line battalion consisted of 6 companies: 4 Fusilier, 1 Voltingeur (light infantry) and 1 Grenadier company.
Accordingly the Light Infantry battalions: 4 Chasseur, 1 Voltingeur and 1 Carabinier company.
So the troop trees for soldiers of Ligne and Légère units could be more or less the same except for the different denotations.
I'm not quite sure about the term 'Marie-Louise'. I know that it was used for the poorly trained and equipped recruits of the years 1813-15, but I can't tell if it was used before that time.
BTW: Found something concerning the Marie-Louises:
Hope this info is of use for you.
EDIT:
If you'll need more uniform plates, let me know.
« Last Edit: August 26, 2008, 09:28:09 pm by von Schweinewitz »
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Cool. What I really need now is the exact number of chevrons + sleeve bands for those ranks... as far as I can see a Sergent has no chevrons and a yellow band near his cuff while a Caporal has 2 red chevrons? Have you got any refs as to the exact progression of these? What about Sergent-Major? Is this the same for the voltigeur and grenadier companies.. what about chasseurs? I know some of these ranks change depending on if it's an artillery or cavalry regiment.. do they follow the same system of stripes? Slightly confused here y'see
I'm using the term marie-louise for an untrained recruit.. it was either that or conscript... possibly the french'll have both conscripts and recruits which'll then lead into the standard troop tree.
Just the 3 more uniforms to rig currently. Yay!
« Last Edit: August 26, 2008, 10:09:23 pm by Dain Ironfoot »
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Hell, my brain is mess of English, French and German terms today ... that's the risk of uniformology. But it's getting better now.
1812 uniform:
Sergents (Line Infantry): gold bar on red over the cuff.
Sergent-Majors wore two gold bars on red, Corporals two orange bars. All the same for fusilier, grendadier and voltingeur uniforms.
Sergents (Light Infantry): white chevron over the cuff. Corporals wore two of them. Same for chasseurs, grenadiers and voltingeurs. Not sure about the Sergent-Majors, sorry.
So far, so good. As for the red chevrons that were worn on the upper sleeve: That **** gives me the creeps. Some sources refer to them as 'sevice chevrons' - I'm not sure what that means. (Distinction for good efforts, perhaps?) It is stated that they were used as rank insignia of the Light infantry with the pre-1812 uniforms, but I'm rather confused about that because it is not comprehensible for me regarding the uniform plates I know.
EDIT:
Artillery and cavalry had similar rank insignia as described above, but there also differences (between several cavalry regiments, Horse and Line artillery etc. etc. ). Maybe we should meditate this question after the infantry uniforms are finished.
« Last Edit: August 26, 2008, 11:52:09 pm by von Schweinewitz »
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Perhaps when I come to do extra variations for veteran units I can stick service chevrons in. In the mean time that info should suffice, thanks very much!
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Zaro's graphical enhancement mod makes the border terrain less hilly, not the actual land you fight on. But there may be a way of doing this.
I found this map (it's bigso I spoilerized it), which may be of some use.
(click to show/hide)
Best of luck!
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Got a quick question for anyone... should officers have a small cartridge box about their person (similar to the 95th officer)
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I'm talking about a small cartridge box slung round the back ala the 95th officer uniform for pistol use. Seems a bit better than keeping spare ammo in your pocket..
Having to re-rig the redcoats... mucked up somewhere.. 95th look good though.
« Last Edit: August 27, 2008, 05:53:54 am by Dain Ironfoot »
I think you'll find most officers carried pistols amongst their effects.
EDIT: Bugger! I thought I'd completed rigging, but upon testing ingame, they all (except the misaligned Redcoats, arg) had this weird problem with a load of vertices attached to a random point.. will have to do again I think. Ach well.
« Last Edit: August 27, 2008, 08:41:58 am by Dain Ironfoot »
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felt an impact upon my back, later upon removing my leather pouch I found a musket ball had pretrated half the way in..."
Ensign Peters, 11th Devonshire, seems likely he's referring to a cavalry style cartridge pouch.
Quote from: Gunfreak on August 27, 2008, 06:56:53 am
no they didn't, it was a completly useless weapon on the battlefield, if they are with in pistol shot, you might as well take a step forward and stab them with you sword.
the only place a pistol was usefull was on a ship, but again, the didn't carry spare ammo, they just had lots and lots of pistols around their neck. shoot, drop the pistol, take another one
I doubt officers would even carry a pistol and if they did they probebly didn't carry spare ammo, one shot, and thats it. atleast for regular infantry officers,
light company officers if they had a firearm would have a musket not pistol.
Don't talk rot. A pistol is a fabulous weapon to have, especially is relatively close quarters, as at that range its quite easy to hit, and you don't have to penetrate the guard of a bayonet or sword. I can think of at least 3 memoirs written by officers which refer to officers reloading a pistol. Seamen didn't reload purely for the reason that they DID carry more than one pistol, combined with shorter personnel engagements. Long arms was entirely the perogotive of the officer, battalion infantry officers were quite as happy to use long arms as their light infantry counterparts, it fitted with a "sporting" persona, the bayonet was the faux pas, as Lietenant Simmons of the 95th wrote of an Irish officer same battalion.
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sorry for trying to help.
No, you should be sorry for talking directly out of your arse hole.
Quote from: Dain Ironfoot on August 27, 2008, 03:30:33 am
Got a quick question for anyone... should officers have a small cartridge box about their person (similar to the 95th officer)
Yes, why not. It's the old issue again about officers bespoke uniforms, you can more or less do what you like, but remember usually only the staff would wear single breasted coatees in that period, regimental officers mainly had double breasted.
As for the pouch, its a cavary affectation really, but the light infantry quickly picked up on it and judging from quotes as above and a few osprey pictures I've seen the rest of the army followed suit to a greater or lesser extent.
Edited for spelling.
« Last Edit: August 27, 2008, 06:35:07 pm by Ealdormann Hussey »
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Yes Hussey, I'm leaning towards a more localised map.. still trying to decide a good bit though.. going to the Royal Greenjackets museum today for a poke about, woo yay. Then to re-rig everything.. at least I've proved it doesn't take overlong.
« Last Edit: August 27, 2008, 07:58:28 pm by Dain Ironfoot »
the story so far (less graphics and spam)
We still don't have a decent Napoleonic mod. This must change. Therefore I propose:
The Peninsular War
The year is 1811 and Napoleon, extending his continental system throughout mainland Europe in order to strangle British trade has seized Spain and gone on to take control of the whole of the Iberian peninsular, setting up his own brother, Joseph as king of Spain. This is a disaster for the British, who have lost their only foothold on the continent. Now, after several years of campaigns , the British have retreated behind the lines of Torres Vedras in Portugal. The French wait, eager to retake Portugal, and end the annoyance that is: The Peninsular war.
Units available at the moment..
British
The 24th, (fictional, roughly based on the 28th in terms of uniform)
Centre company officer
Centre company private
Light company sergeant
Royal Foot Artillery crewman
The 95th
Officer
Private
French
The 21st
Centre company officer
Fusilier
Grenadier
So yes, I'm hoping I can attract a few other modders to this cause... didn't you say you were in a Napoleonic mood at one point Highlander?
Stuff I'd like to get in
-Animations, I've already done a new musket reload (which many of you may have seen in that PN vid) I've also done some new melee musket animations and I hope to do some other things which'll give it more of a period feel.
-The whole morale and formation codes.. possibly the main thing which makes a Napoleonic mod possible and exciting at the moment.. and the prospect of possible having light, line and heavy infantry operating as seperate units rather than all being lumped together under "archer"
Anyway, my first thought is possibly creating something akin to the custom battle mod to begin with... just to test out some ideas and get models ingame.
STUFF NEEDED
-I'm really no scripter... not at all, not an ounce. I've done all my testing of rigging and suchlike with the custom item editor.. so anyone who can help with the basic stuff would be much appreciated.. Highlander is doing a cracking job with the advanced stuff
-Fellow modelers! I've got uniforms covered and hope to cover some weapons (fingers crossed.. swords at least I know I can do) but it'd be great to get a large variety of weapons from this era nocking about.. also scene props buildings.. and possibly fortresses... eventually. I'll focus on having troops running about first.
- A map.. Hussey has offered me a map of the peninsular, I'm debating wether I should focus the action on a much smaller area (initially at least) any ideas or suggestions here would be good... a small detailed section with specific objectives for both French and British players would be ideal..
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Dude! Those uniforms are superb!
Did you really model the straps as separate or does it just look that way? I can already tell this will be one of my favorite mods!
Also, it's nice to see something that looks like it's going to be a troop upgrade system based on ranks. Always wanted to see that.
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I was and I still am. Unfortunately I underestimated the number of models needed. I'm happy that you started this mod.
If there is any small-medium constribution, I could do, tell me. Since my models won't reach the quality of yours, I can screw that.
I'm just not up for being the main scripter, that's too much for me right now.
Mirathei made a artillery script recently. Have you checked it out? I haven't. If it works well, you could use it, otherwise I would volunteer to make a large-scale artillery thing for you.
Edit: I just made a pretty good, complex and realistic physics system for a baseball mod (), which could easily be used as a base for that.
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As with wild west, I'm interested too - I can help you out with sounds and a few models that can be used with 1866 too if you'd like. Great uniforms though.
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Well, if I can stay away from CoD4 and get back to coding, you can definitely have the formation scripts when I finish. I am thinking about posting the work I have already in a thread in the forge, so serious modders can look at my ideas and make suggestions, or make their own multiple formation scripts since I am going way too slow and it will be winter by the time it is finished at the pace I am going now. I would do this basically just so my ideas would get out their and better coders can use my ideas to make a better system if they so choose (I am still going to work on my version though).
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Far more historically correct would be German troops of the Grand Duchy of Berg fighting on the French side.
From 1809 on two squadrons of the Cevau-légeres fought in Spain, attached to the Imperial Guard in Madrid. They remained with the Guard throughout their stay in Spain.
The 1st and the 2nd Infantry Regiment went to Spain in 1809, too. They served in the Siege of Gerona and returned to Germany in 1811.
In 1810, the 3rd Infantry Regiment was sent to Spain and stayed there till 1813.
Well, I would love to see some troops of the Duchy in this mod ...
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Given that they look to be a fairly simple reskin of the standard French uniform, who knows.. but I do want to get my basic troops sorted out first. Next on my agenda are French officers and from there onto a few basic cavalry types I think. After that I'll need to think about weapons and getting all those models ingame and hopefull releasing some kind of basic beta. After that.. we'll see.
That's the plan anyway.
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Amazing models, there!
The Napoleonic Wars are actually my favorite period of history, and am always excited/let down by attempts to bring the era to the gaming world. There's a lot of good mods that deal with Napoleon but not a lot of good games.
I would like to offer my services to you, but I don't know how much help I can be. I can provide sounds for artillery, troop sounds, and so forth.
I could also offer to make a start-up screen for you (which is something I really enjoy doing). You can view an example of my work here:
http://forums.taleworlds.com/index.php/topic,40938.0.html
Other than that, good luck with the mod. Hope it goes well.
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Good work, although the gorget is a bit deformed. Also the coat looks too long compared with this plate:
Officer's coats were generally shorter than that of the ordinary ranks.
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no pics of the Brits. (Artillery)
French Line Artillery: 4pdr. gun (not the most useful picture, I know):
French Guard Artillery: 12pdr. gun (of the Old Guard, BTW):
Hope that helps. I'll try to find more, if needed.
EDIT:
Le système Gribeauval:
http://www.napoleon-series.org/military/organization/systeman/c_systeman.html
http://pagesperso-orange.fr/minismodels/technique/doc_artillerie/gribeauval01.htm
The System An XI Guns:
http://www.napoleon-series.org/military/organization/systeman/c_systeman3.html
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I think Highlander, that a 6 pounder would be appropriate for the size of battles we're dealing with
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This is just a very early WIP. There will be a lot more detail. I just wanted to know, is it about the type of cannon you mean?
(click to show/hide)
« Last Edit: August 13, 2008, 07:35:33 pm by Highlander »
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So far the model is great!
But IMO the texture of the gun barrel looks too pale.
EDIT (sorry, in German):
Highlander, in der Realität würde die Lafette beim ersten Schuss auseinanderfallen. Die beiden Seitenteile der Lafette müssten an zwei Stellen noch miteinander verbunden werden, siehe Markierungen in der Zeichnung unten:
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Depends what you'd like to do... I was going to do those basic weapons myself, but of course wouldn't mind too much if someone else did them. Militaryheratige.com (or something along those lines) has some great ref pictures. What I was going to do was
India pattern brown bess musket
British infantry rifle (now known as the baker rifle)
Charleville 1777 pattern musket
Of course if you're thinking more of civillian rifles there's a hell of a lot of variation there and not so many ref pics that I'm aware of... lots of ref pics of the various flintlock pistols used by people though.
« Last Edit: August 14, 2008, 11:59:47 pm by Dain Ironfoot
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Dain, are you sure you won't use the helmets Stefano made for PN? Hope you think about it again.
And what do you plan to put in the first release? Rather a early release or a late one?
There has been some progress on the artillery. The battle scripts are about to be done. What's left is putting some soldiers next to the cannons who 'use' them and the free map stuff like restricting the firing according to the supply of ammunition, gun powder and stuff. I'll send you a preview of all the artillery changes soon
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, it actually looks even better in motion. Turned out better than I expected.
Barry_bon_Loyale PMed me some cannon sounds which really add to the atmosphere. Together with blow back animations it looks pretty good and from my testing the gameplay is quite good too (This was the last time those crossbowmen use their hold this position tactic ).
Some more things I'd need to know:
Cannon values: How frequently and how fast do these 6-pdr cannons shoot? Currently I use at most 2 shots a minute and about 50 mps.
Weapon reach is not important, there is no situation where the cannons have to shoot more than 300 metres long, which such a cannon easily passes, right?
Howitzers: Used in the PW? If so, in field battles as well?
Ammunition: Have there been only round shots or case-shots and maybe explosive ammunition for howitzers?
Sorry about my lag of knownledge there
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- The French used howitzers in Spain.
French Line Artillery batteries consisted of 8 cannons: 6 guns and 2 howitzers.
Horse Artillery batteries usually had 6 cannons: 4 guns (6-pdr.) and 2 howitzers.
In the battlefield several batteries could form a grand battery (sometimes of more than 100 guns) to achieve devastating fire power.
- Ammunition: the whole range of deadly BS - round shots, case-shots, canister shots, grenades.
- Fire rate: 2 or 3 shots per minute for a 6-pdr. would be realistic. Well-trained gun crews could achieve a quite surprisingly high rate of fire, some eye witnesses reported up to 8 shots per minute - but maybe that are cock-and-bull stories.
- Range will be no problem.
More info: http://napoleonistyka.atspace.com/artillery_tactics.htm
French artillery: http://napoleonistyka.atspace.com/artillery_Napoleon.html
British artillery: http://napoleonistyka.atspace.com/British_artillery.htm
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Those look brilliant Highlander! Interesting how you added the artillery to the battlefield commands... I'm still vaguely wondering if it's possible to have troops divided into light and line still with the new tactics kit.. I'd love to have Light, Line and heavy as seperate commandable units.. 2 units of cavalry would be lovely too and would allow a lot of tactics..
I'll think about Stephano's helmets, and ask him possibly. The tartleton will mainly be for officers now anyway.. but I'm just having something of a streak of wanting to try modeling things. That'll probably fall off once I hit the slog of gun modeling and texturing (something I've never really done before) the fact that I seem to have lost my memory stick full of reference pictures will probably kill my modeling passion too..
I'd love to release early if possible.. but there's still a lot of work to do, especially in terms of weapons models.
With the cannon ammunition lets keep it simple with either canister or roundshot. If the gameplay is good, we'll stick to historic values. But if the AI marches straight up only to be decimated by our
EDIT: Ha, found my memory stick, back to work
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(omitted some posts which were repeats of previous)
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I'll do the less famous stuff if you'd like - it gives me a bit of freedom in making it easier as I don't have to be as accurate.
Flintlock - (by Buxton)
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are all the uniforms going to be "parade" type, or are you going to do some of them in campaign dress to?
mabye someone in brown pants? or realy dirty white ones to make it look like they have been in the field for a long time?
they uniforms you have made so far is fantastic work by the way
-A valid point from Gunfreak!!!!!
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Artillery is nearly done, by the way. What's left is to fix a small problem with the aiming, the positioning of the foot gunners and some minor things like stealing guns after battle.
Howitzers in the foreground, cannons in the background.
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Looks great!
Concerning the gunners: Will they actually fight during the battle like infantry when they are attacked? Or will they just be some kind of scene props?
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Normal troops that stand near the cannon doing nothing, but they will shoot when there are enemies near them.
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That's perfect and will add some spice to the battles!
Another question: Can the enemy artillery be destroyed/silenced during battle? Or will they continue firing till the end even after all gunners are killed
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Just shoot the gunners and the cannons will be unable to fire. The problem is that the AI is too stupid and usually leaves the cannons unprotected behind. Those cannons have no chance against a small group of cavalry.
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looks like you guys don't need much advice/information, you know your stuff...
I might suggest though, that for the map area, and for unit variety, to look at the 1808/09 Salamanca/Corunna campaign?
That would allow the involvement of Imperial Guard units, as well as the quainter old-style Spanish uniforms & troops, while the Brits had all sorts represented in this campaign.
Whoever suggested the French Chasseur a Pied have rifles was wrong, Napoleon ordered them withdrawn several years earlier (03 or 04, I think)..
As far as cannons are concerned: I've noticed that enemy AI always follow enemy heroes/lords. Do you think that making cannons 'heroes' would lead to enemy AI sticking closer to them?
Also, (treading lightly, oh so lightly) can I tentatively point out that under native conditions, any unit will swiftly become a raggle-taggle of all possible unit types and ranks?
It would be a bit unpleasant to besiege a supposedly French-held fortress, and find that half the garrison was highlanders and riflemen!
Just my tuppeny worth. If you want, I am happy to offer historical notes for this mod. I am pretty clued up on the pen. campaigns, including obviously the Corunna one I suggested just now. Don't ask me to texture or script, your stuff is way better. On top of which my time is limited...
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As far as unit trees are concerned, it's going to be a fairly linear progression. You wont see light companies becoming riflemen, or line infantry from the 28th becoming Highlanders. With the sergeants and other NCOs it's simply going to be a choice between that or simply becoming a veteran version of the original unit. In other words it's mainly an aesthetic thing. We don't want armies of sergeants. There wont be any neutrals, so there'll be no situation where the French could rescue British troops. This certainly wont be a native reskin.
I'd rather stick with my current time period for various reasons in terms of gameplay and my uniforms (I'd have to redo my French uniforms. It's fairly ahistorical for them to have these particular uniforms already, so I may shift the time period a year forward anyway) but advice on where'd be a particularly exciting/empty (more freedom) place to set the mod would be most welcome.
« Last Edit: August 24, 2008, 08:32:24 pm by Dain Ironfoot
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I've thought of something else I need a little on, French Ranks.. sous-officier and caporaux are sergeant and corporal equivilent I'm guessing... is there a NCO rank before that? The French striping system confuses me somewhat. I can see that a sergeant simply has a band by his cuff, while a corporal has a red chevron..
Here is an early thought on the British troop tree. If by separating the light, line and heavy companies we can do something cool with multiple formations, I'll seperate them. As I said above, NCOs are mainly an aesthetic thing. Don't want an army of sergeants.
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This should get you going on that: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ranks_in_the_French_Army.
Good luck on this awesome piece of work!
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Highlander says they can shoot, so some will be armed with muskets... others possibly with rammers and other bits of kit.. I still know little about how artillery works myself and so my plans are all only temporary y'understand. I'll have to work out how to get officers in there too..(if I can, otherwise Arty officer uniform will be player only)
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Allright, uploading the preview.
I'll rather post the explanation of the system here, so that other people can make suggestions as well.
Okay let's start right away:
In your army you have an artillery commander, who administrates the guns and ammunition. By talking to him, you can access the army's magazine and put your cannon items there (you can buy them at the weapon merchant). Besides that you have to give him ammunition (gunpowder and cannonballs). You lose ammunition with every shot, so you have to keep buying new ammo.
What you also need are foot gunners, who shoot the cannons. In the preview you can get some of them by talking to the commander (for testing).
In battle then, you have to order your cannons to shoot via backspace menu.
Be warned that cannons are completely ineffective in MaB's extremely hilly terrains, so you should test in flat ones. There are also some bugs, but I think you should get an idea of how the system works. Don't expect a perfect mod, it's just a preview.
Gonna pm you the link now
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As far as cannons are concerned: I've noticed that enemy AI always follow enemy heroes/lords. Do you think that making cannons 'heroes' would lead to enemy AI sticking closer to them?
Looking at the code, they follow the averange position of all enemies, I think. However, I don't think artillery should be too overrated.
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Astonishing work highlander, I was talking with Dain regarding whether or not mortars and congreve rockets would be feasible? We came to the conclusion that neither or us had the foggiest so it was best to ask you. Mortars would be in your own iterest as well, the coehorn was the probably the most populous single piece of artillery in the world, Dutch designed in the1740's I think, with variations used by almost every nation for the next 130 years.
One question, are the artillery stationary?
You asked regarding Stephano's helmets, I have told Dain he is more than welcome to use any artwork from PN.
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Cannons are brilliant... one question though, is it possible to have your artillery officer stick with the guns rather than be counted as infantry? Also since the guns are static, we can add exta bits of detail later..
« Last Edit: August 25, 2008, 07:18:18 pm by Dain Ironfoot »
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I was talking with Dain regarding whether or not mortars and congreve rockets would be feasible? We came to the conclusion that neither or us had the foggiest so it was best to ask you. Mortars would be in your own iterest as well, the coehorn was the probably the most populous single piece of artillery in the world, Dutch designed in the1740's I think, with variations used by almost every nation for the next 130 years.
Rockets, weren't they only used in sieges? And mortars could be made easily, they'd work similar to howitzers, with a little bit more shoot high.
Quote from: Ealdormann Hussey on August 25, 2008, 12:49:17 pm
One question, are the artillery stationary?
They are. There is not much point in making them moveable. They are spawned at the highest position in 30 metres and even if I could make a script to move them, which would be highly complicated, I don't see any use for it. I mean where else would you put them?
Quote from: Dain Ironfoot on August 25, 2008, 07:13:35 pm
Cannons are brilliant... one question though, is it possible to have your artillery officer stick with the guns rather than be counted as infantry? Also since the guns are static, we can add exta bits of detail later..
Possable, yes. Feel free to suggest any details, that come into your mind.
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Nope, the experimental rocket corp founded by colonel conreve worked in a similar manner to the horse artillery, have a peek here:
Notoriously erratic, even in the 1840's when they put fins on for spin they were fairly innacurate, back during the peninsular war they're only method or stability was the poles.
Quote from: Dain Ironfoot on August 25, 2008, 07:13:35 pm
Cannons are brilliant... one question though, is it possible to have your artillery officer stick with the guns rather than be counted as infantry? Also since the guns are static, we can add exta bits of detail later..
By bits of detail do you mean limbers caissons and horse teams?
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Bits and pieces, yes... somewhen.
Quote
Possable, yes. Feel free to suggest any details, that come into your mind.
Good.. aside from the fact he ran off, cannons work brilliantly. It'll be nice to have him there overseeing the guns (Artillery officer uniform is really cool)
« Last Edit: August 26, 2008, 02:14:08 am by Dain Ironfoot »
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Next I'll fix the artillery officer and try to improve the effects. I want to have dust everywhere around the cannons.
Maybe I'll do grenade ammo for howitzers, too. Canister shots, however, wouldn't turn out well, I'm afraid. I made some shotguns for 1866, but it wasn't that good.
Edit:
And I think we have to find a way to make the terrain less hilly, don't we? I mean would any officer choose a hilly terrain for battle? Exept for guerillas maybe. Besides that, such MaB extreme hill terrains don't even exist, I think.
« Last Edit: August 26, 2008, 06:57:19 am by Highlander »
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Oooh, artillery. I'm salivating in anticipation Highlander! Well done.
Dain,
Are you sticking to the standard sandbox-style of Native or structuring the campaign more with scripts? If so, how will you represent the balance of forces? The English armies will be penned up behind the Lines of Torres and likely to get hammered by French armies using the standard M&B native system. Would you start the campaign pre-or-post Massena's defeat and call for retreat?
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Highlander
Well we should have varying terrains and some terrains in which cannon are more or less effective... will have to think about the map.. still trying to think of ideas there.. also need to have a general look at the terrain in the peninsular..
Markus:
Ideally, yes we'd have some kind of scripted campaign. However as I've said before, I am utterly useless at that area.. coasting on Highlander's good will at the moment.. somewhen I'm going to have to bite the bullet and start fiddling more with the module system which'll be a huge roadblock as my time is so so limited. But I will do it.
Will also be related to the map chosen and the historical situation will probably be decided based on that and gameplay. We'll have to see.. I'm taking things one step at a time. But any ideas anyone has will be great! I'm thinking of possibly shifting the time to 1812 to give a more even footing, but we'll see. Definitely leaning towards post Sabugal..
In other news, been on something of a rigging spree. Almost rigged all the uniforms shown + variations..
Also does..
Marie-Louise -Soldat - Caporal - Sergent - Sergent-Major
or for non sous-officiers: soldat - Vielle culotte - Vrai Bougre - briscard
(where due to the lack of a chosen man/lance corporal equivilent, First sergeant (Sergent-Major) is the equivalent of the British sergeant)
sound right?
« Last Edit: August 26, 2008, 08:40:53 am by Dain Ironfoot »
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Look up Zaro's graphical enhancement thread. He has made a plug-in to make terrain less hilly. Might be of use to you.
Dain: what program do you use for rigging and do you, by any chance, know of any good rigging tutorials (not so much how to learn a rigging program, but to learn how to do the actual rigging of normal armours/clothing)?
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Dain asked me to help him with the French ranks. I'm not a specialist in making fancy troop trees, but I'll do my best.
Marie-Louise - Homme de Troupe (instead of 'soldat') - Caporal - Sergent - Sergent-Major
Possibly followed by this ranks: Adjutant-sous-Officier (Senior NCO) - Porte-Aigle ('Eagle-bearer' - actually there were the 1e, 2e and 3e P.-A. carrying the flag) - Sous-Lieutenant and Lieutenant (Company officers).
(OK, that would be a whole bunch of officers running around the battlefield, but at least the Porte-Aigles would be a picturesque addition to the regular troops.)
IMO the terms vielle culotte - vrai Bougre - briscard could very well used for non sous-officiers.
A Line battalion consisted of 6 companies: 4 Fusilier, 1 Voltingeur (light infantry) and 1 Grenadier company.
Accordingly the Light Infantry battalions: 4 Chasseur, 1 Voltingeur and 1 Carabinier company.
So the troop trees for soldiers of Ligne and Légère units could be more or less the same except for the different denotations.
I'm not quite sure about the term 'Marie-Louise'. I know that it was used for the poorly trained and equipped recruits of the years 1813-15, but I can't tell if it was used before that time.
BTW: Found something concerning the Marie-Louises:
Hope this info is of use for you.
EDIT:
If you'll need more uniform plates, let me know.
« Last Edit: August 26, 2008, 09:28:09 pm by von Schweinewitz »
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Cool. What I really need now is the exact number of chevrons + sleeve bands for those ranks... as far as I can see a Sergent has no chevrons and a yellow band near his cuff while a Caporal has 2 red chevrons? Have you got any refs as to the exact progression of these? What about Sergent-Major? Is this the same for the voltigeur and grenadier companies.. what about chasseurs? I know some of these ranks change depending on if it's an artillery or cavalry regiment.. do they follow the same system of stripes? Slightly confused here y'see
I'm using the term marie-louise for an untrained recruit.. it was either that or conscript... possibly the french'll have both conscripts and recruits which'll then lead into the standard troop tree.
Just the 3 more uniforms to rig currently. Yay!
« Last Edit: August 26, 2008, 10:09:23 pm by Dain Ironfoot »
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Hell, my brain is mess of English, French and German terms today ... that's the risk of uniformology. But it's getting better now.
1812 uniform:
Sergents (Line Infantry): gold bar on red over the cuff.
Sergent-Majors wore two gold bars on red, Corporals two orange bars. All the same for fusilier, grendadier and voltingeur uniforms.
Sergents (Light Infantry): white chevron over the cuff. Corporals wore two of them. Same for chasseurs, grenadiers and voltingeurs. Not sure about the Sergent-Majors, sorry.
So far, so good. As for the red chevrons that were worn on the upper sleeve: That **** gives me the creeps. Some sources refer to them as 'sevice chevrons' - I'm not sure what that means. (Distinction for good efforts, perhaps?) It is stated that they were used as rank insignia of the Light infantry with the pre-1812 uniforms, but I'm rather confused about that because it is not comprehensible for me regarding the uniform plates I know.
EDIT:
Artillery and cavalry had similar rank insignia as described above, but there also differences (between several cavalry regiments, Horse and Line artillery etc. etc. ). Maybe we should meditate this question after the infantry uniforms are finished.
« Last Edit: August 26, 2008, 11:52:09 pm by von Schweinewitz »
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Perhaps when I come to do extra variations for veteran units I can stick service chevrons in. In the mean time that info should suffice, thanks very much!
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Zaro's graphical enhancement mod makes the border terrain less hilly, not the actual land you fight on. But there may be a way of doing this.
I found this map (it's bigso I spoilerized it), which may be of some use.
(click to show/hide)
Best of luck!
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Got a quick question for anyone... should officers have a small cartridge box about their person (similar to the 95th officer)
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I'm talking about a small cartridge box slung round the back ala the 95th officer uniform for pistol use. Seems a bit better than keeping spare ammo in your pocket..
Having to re-rig the redcoats... mucked up somewhere.. 95th look good though.
« Last Edit: August 27, 2008, 05:53:54 am by Dain Ironfoot »
I think you'll find most officers carried pistols amongst their effects.
EDIT: Bugger! I thought I'd completed rigging, but upon testing ingame, they all (except the misaligned Redcoats, arg) had this weird problem with a load of vertices attached to a random point.. will have to do again I think. Ach well.
« Last Edit: August 27, 2008, 08:41:58 am by Dain Ironfoot »
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felt an impact upon my back, later upon removing my leather pouch I found a musket ball had pretrated half the way in..."
Ensign Peters, 11th Devonshire, seems likely he's referring to a cavalry style cartridge pouch.
Quote from: Gunfreak on August 27, 2008, 06:56:53 am
no they didn't, it was a completly useless weapon on the battlefield, if they are with in pistol shot, you might as well take a step forward and stab them with you sword.
the only place a pistol was usefull was on a ship, but again, the didn't carry spare ammo, they just had lots and lots of pistols around their neck. shoot, drop the pistol, take another one
I doubt officers would even carry a pistol and if they did they probebly didn't carry spare ammo, one shot, and thats it. atleast for regular infantry officers,
light company officers if they had a firearm would have a musket not pistol.
Don't talk rot. A pistol is a fabulous weapon to have, especially is relatively close quarters, as at that range its quite easy to hit, and you don't have to penetrate the guard of a bayonet or sword. I can think of at least 3 memoirs written by officers which refer to officers reloading a pistol. Seamen didn't reload purely for the reason that they DID carry more than one pistol, combined with shorter personnel engagements. Long arms was entirely the perogotive of the officer, battalion infantry officers were quite as happy to use long arms as their light infantry counterparts, it fitted with a "sporting" persona, the bayonet was the faux pas, as Lietenant Simmons of the 95th wrote of an Irish officer same battalion.
Quote
sorry for trying to help.
No, you should be sorry for talking directly out of your arse hole.
Quote from: Dain Ironfoot on August 27, 2008, 03:30:33 am
Got a quick question for anyone... should officers have a small cartridge box about their person (similar to the 95th officer)
Yes, why not. It's the old issue again about officers bespoke uniforms, you can more or less do what you like, but remember usually only the staff would wear single breasted coatees in that period, regimental officers mainly had double breasted.
As for the pouch, its a cavary affectation really, but the light infantry quickly picked up on it and judging from quotes as above and a few osprey pictures I've seen the rest of the army followed suit to a greater or lesser extent.
Edited for spelling.
« Last Edit: August 27, 2008, 06:35:07 pm by Ealdormann Hussey »
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Yes Hussey, I'm leaning towards a more localised map.. still trying to decide a good bit though.. going to the Royal Greenjackets museum today for a poke about, woo yay. Then to re-rig everything.. at least I've proved it doesn't take overlong.
« Last Edit: August 27, 2008, 07:58:28 pm by Dain Ironfoot »
