LOTR: Rings of Power (Amazon)

[Ser Jon]

And you seem to think that white people are all one pasty pale shade, travel throughout europe or even just one european country and you will see a large variety of shades of "white" people. A tanned white person is often described as nut brown for example. You may well be right though, I can't know what Tolkien meant for sure unless he's explicitly stated it somewhere, and again I don't really care.

As to Galadriel, that's a case of tell not show. If you watched GOT for example, you don't need to be told that Tywin Lannister is a commanding presence and respected figure, the writing and acting makes it very very clear. Although I don't need to be "spoon fed" character motivation, Galadriels character in ROP is very poorly written as she is never actually shown to be an impressive figure in any way besides some of the combat sequences.

No, I don't think that at all. That would be ridiculous of me. I just think it is absurd of anyone to assume that any mention of dark skinned people, are just darker white people. Especially since we known that in Harad, Far Harad, the people are definitely not white people.

To be very fair, this is beyond the age where you'd see a lot of that out of Galadriel, as it's just beginning arguably the second most important age in all of Tolkien-verse. I don't think the lack of her in S1 having Tywin levels of cunning because the environment around her is not yet settled for it, is proof of her being "moronic" or "poorly written".

 

[eddiemccandless]

I don't think the lack of her in S1 having Tywin levels of cunning because the environment around her is not yet settled for it, is proof of her being "moronic" or "poorly written".

To me the proof that she is poorly written is in the fact that I don't really feel any attachment or interest towards the character. Game of Thrones characters were memorable, I don't really get that from any in this show. The acting is not bad, it's the dialogue and the plot that I find uninteresting. This to me was one of those tv shows to kind of watch along as I am doing other things, and overall left a resounding meh as the one lasting impression.

 

[NPC99]

Galadriel's script was badly written. Elves are of an age that should demonstrate greater maturity than stereotypical human soap opera motivations of a 'B' movie.

 

[Ser Jon]

To me the proof that she is poorly written is in the fact that I don't really feel any attachment or interest towards the character. Game of Thrones characters were memorable, I don't really get that from any in this show. The acting is not bad, it's the dialogue and the plot that I find uninteresting. This to me was one of those tv shows to kind of watch along as I am doing other things, and overall left a resounding meh as the one lasting impression.

I can't speak to that, as I felt attached to her. Though it took a few episodes. I didn't feel attached to GOT characters S1 either, well except Eddard. It's very rare that characters pop like that for 1 season, but that's a critic I can actually understand.

 

[Pentagathoos]

No, I don't think that at all. That would be ridiculous of me. I just think it is absurd of anyone to assume that any mention of dark skinned people, are just darker white people. Especially since we known that in Harad, Far Harad, the people are definitely not white people.

Yes,Tolkien made it very clear that in the places that roughly correspond to Africa/Arabia/Asia people have the skin colours you would expect to see in these real world places. Do you think that the Breelanders and Dunlendings were black as well? IIRC they are all described as having darker complexion and hair, but again this sounds very much like descriptions of Welsh people as far back as Roman sources (and considering the obvious Welsh/Saxon parallels with Rohan and Dunland I always imagined them this way).

 

[Ser Jon]

Yes,Tolkien made it very clear that in the places that roughly correspond to Africa/Arabia/Asia people have the skin colours you would expect to see in these real world places. Do you think that the Breelanders and Dunlendings were black as well? IIRC they are all described as having darker complexion and hair, but again this sounds very much like descriptions of Welsh people as far back as Roman sources (and considering the obvious Welsh/Saxon parallels with Rohan and Dunland I always imagined them this way).

I don't think all the dark skinned characters Tolkien mentioned are just black, no. My point is that Tolkien made many instances in which races or characters were introduced to us as not being white. You're hyper fixating on black alone though. The entire intent he laid out to you as the author, multiple times mind you, is that some of them are simply not white (Harfoots etc etc). So whilst Far Harad were supposed to be black people, that doesn't mean there aren't any other non-white races anywhere else and we see that multiple times in the series. Do you really think a man who was born in Bloemfontein, saw war etc etc invented an entirely white world except in Far Harad and that every mention of darker skinned people beyond there is just darker skinned white people? Is that something you're really trying to say you believe?

And again, if he intended to describe to you tanned white people, he would have used other wording entirely, instead of pointing out to you that they are dark skinned, brown or black etc etc. You're saying he didn't mean black/non-white people despite the fact that he point blank describes them as not white. It cannot be argued, it's in his own creation...

 

[Pentagathoos]

No, I think that the man who clearly had quite a Eurocentric knowledge of history, who built a fantasy world initially as a pseudo mythos for Britain, which turned into a much wider fantasy world inspired by mostly northern European mythology and wider European history was generally imagining the parts of his world which are people by European inspired cultures to have been peopled by people with European phenotypes.
And again you're claiming that anything other than fair skin = non white. Do you also think all of the ringwraiths had dark since they are frequently described as black chaps, black riders, black folks etc?
Edit:
Once more, I really don't care about whether there are black hobbits in the show, and I don't particularly care whether Tolkien meant tanned skin, indigenous south american, middle eastern, african, mixed race etc etc when saying the harfoots had brown skin, I just think he probably meant they were tanned.

 

[Ser Jon]

No, I think that the man who clearly had quite a Eurocentric knowledge of history, who built a fantasy world initially as a pseudo mythos for Britain, which turned into a much wider fantasy world inspired by mostly northern European mythology and wider European history was generally imagining the parts of his world which are people by European inspired cultures to have been peopled by people with European phenotypes.
And again you're claiming that anything other than fair skin = non white. Do you also think all of the ringwraiths had dark since they are frequently described as black chaps, black riders, black folks etc?
Edit:
Once more, I really don't care about whether there are black hobbits in the show, and I don't particularly care whether Tolkien meant tanned skin, indigenous south american, middle eastern, african, mixed race etc etc when saying the harfoots had brown skin, I just think he probably meant they were tanned.

And you think that because he had this knowledge, it must mean any and all descriptions of non-white people is just tan white people? I'm sorry, but that's an incredibly weak argument, when his writing has made it clear to you numerous times that this world is varied. If you're going to argue that Tolkien describing that dark skinned people are just all darker white people despite his own word being applied here, you're going to need a much stronger argument.

And no, that is not what I am saying at all, as that's a gross simplification of what I'm trying to get through to you. I think you need to go back and go over the replies again. I'm saying that he's described multiple times people of various skin color, and that it is asinine that you (or anyone else!) think that all dark skinned people described are just white people because you think you know better than what Tolkien laid out. I'm sure there are darker skinned white people in the story, just as I'm certain that Tolkien described numerous non-white people, because he took the effort to describe it to you as such and for a reason. The issue here is that you're under the impression that Tolkien only meant white people, just tanned, and you have nothing to base that on and argue against clear instances of writing from the man himself. And if I'm going to agree with you, you're going to need more than "I think he meant x".

And you're reaching. In what world does it make sense that I would think the Nazgûl fit into this? Why would I even consider their skin color or anything else like that, when they are spirits/wraiths/magical and are clearly not relevant to the discussion we're having? They're no longer Men and unless they were described to us before their corruption of the Rings via Sauron, it'd be a discussion worth having in relevance to this topic, but as it is now? It's like you asking if I ever wondered or gave the impression here what skin color the goblins are supposed to be. It's ridiculous. We're talking about humans/humanoid races in which are very Men-like, such as the Hobbits, the Elves, the Dwarves, Men and even, in some degree, the Maiar.

 

[NPC99]

I don't care what skin colour the ringwraiths were when they were alive centuries ago. Being drawn from different kingdoms in different parts of the world they were probably of diverse ethnicity. However, they were called Black Riders because they dressed entirely in black. Tolkien wrote his book in a different generation, which didn't have modern sensitivities to race. Accordingly, his descriptions may at times be colourful as opposed to coloured.
In reality, describing any species without any redeeming features (such as orcs) to justify the books heroes slaughtering them without quarter seems unlikely to promote tolerance. War breeds hate and soldiers dehumanise their enemies to justify their actions. Seeing the Vietnamese as gooks probably made it easier for Americans to drop napalm on villages. False perspective is extremely dangerous.

 

[Pentagathoos]

And no, that is not what I am saying at all, as that's a gross simplification of what I'm trying to get through to you.

No, it isn't, its exactly what you are saying. Describing one group of people as darker of skin than another does not mean they are non-white, and yet you are claiming that Tolkien describing one group as being darker of skin means they are explicitly stated as not being white.

I also have not claimed that there are no POC described by Tolkien, some of the men of far Harad are explicitly stated as black in the books, and I have always assumed that the Haradrim are roughly middle eastern, african or south asian (depending on where exactly they are from), and I imagined the peoples of Rhun to be central or eastern asian. Presumably there would various mixed race peoples too.
Again, considering how most of Tolkien's people's are so heavily based on/inspired by real world historical cultures, and how for any that are based on scandinavian/germanic people he explicity states they have blonde hair and pale skin, and then uses some form of archaic Germanic language to represent their language, I don't think it's unreasonable to assume that for example the Dunlendings would look roughly like the people they are inspired by (in this case Welsh/Brythonic, and their darker hair and skin would match up to descriptions from real world history.)

At the end of the day it really doesn't matter. Imagine them however you imagine them, these are books after all.

 

[Ser Jon]

No, it isn't, its exactly what you are saying. Describing one group of people as darker of skin than another does not mean they are non-white, and yet you are claiming that Tolkien describing one group as being darker of skin means they are explicitly stated as not being white.

No, again, that's a gross oversimplification of my point. Tolkien described darker skinned characters, and that's all we know. That they are dark skinned. That he took the effort, multiple times, to let readers know they were not "fair of skin" (white) and that anyone claiming that the only non-white people in all of Middle-Earth are from Far Harad because they think Tolkien meant "darker skinned white people" for every instance of characters/races described as darker, is absolutely and positively ridiculous.

I also have not claimed that there are no POC described by Tolkien, some of the men of far Harad are explicitly stated as black in the books, and I have always assumed that the Haradrim are roughly middle eastern, african or south asian (depending on where exactly they are from), and I imagined the peoples of Rhun to be central or eastern asian. Presumably there would various mixed race peoples too.

I know you never claimed it like that. My comment was towards your statement that Tolkien made people correspond to their real life equivalents, such as your previous statement with Harad etc, and as such the characters described of dark skin more northly (Harfoots) are just tanned white people.

Again, considering how most of Tolkien's people's are so heavily based on/inspired by real world historical cultures, and how for any that are based on scandinavian/germanic people he explicity states they have blonde hair and pale skin, and then uses some form of archaic Germanic language to represent their language, I don't think it's unreasonable to assume that for example the Dunlendings would look roughly like the people they are inspired by (in this case Welsh/Brythonic, and their darker hair and skin would match up to descriptions from real world history.)

It doesn't mean that his world is crafted exactly like ours just because he was inspired by it. It's not to say it's not important before you think that's what I mean, I'm just saying that his inspiration was just that—inspiration. There's no hard evidence whatsoever that white people only lived in specific regions in Middle-Earth and all non-whites in other specific regions, and the Far Harad and Near Harad people being a certain race doesn't mean they cannot be anywhere else.

And okay, if he describes people or someone as white with Germanic features, than obviously who is mentioned is white? We're clearly talking about the races and people he went into effort in describing as ALL dark skinned and whether or not they can be more northly (such as the Harfoots for example).

At the end of the day it really doesn't matter. Imagine them however you imagine them, these are books after all.

Okay.

I don't care what skin colour the ringwraiths were when they were alive centuries ago. Being drawn from different kingdoms in different parts of the world they were probably of diverse ethnicity. However, they were called Black Riders because they dressed entirely in black. Tolkien wrote his book in a different generation, which didn't have modern sensitivities to race. Accordingly, his descriptions may at times be colourful as opposed to coloured.
In reality, describing any species without any redeeming features (such as orcs) to justify the books heroes slaughtering them without quarter seems unlikely to promote tolerance. War breeds hate and soldiers dehumanise their enemies to justify their actions. Seeing the Vietnamese as gooks probably made it easier for Americans to drop napalm on villages. False perspective is extremely dangerous.

I don't either, since they're wraiths. I was just trying to make a point that it made no sense to bring up in the discussion unless we were specifically talking about them when they were Men and if they were described before their corruption.

And I actually agree about the orcs statement. I mean, in his time it was easier to see the world as black and white I guess, but I've never been fond of fantasy worlds creating creatures that are just born "evil". For a lot of reasons. Including that it just feels like a justification of violence/war for a lot of these worlds. Maybe that's why Rings of Power tried to move the orcs away from that position?

 

[NPC99]

Maybe that's why Rings of Power tried to move the orcs away from that position?

Maybe, but ROP hasn't redeemed them much. Nowhere as much as the Warhammer film where orcs/goblins were allowed to be more than cardboard villains. Tolkien lore doesn't give any latitude for "evil" creatures.

 

[Antoine de Saint-Exupéry]

it's the most tepid defence of rop i can think of but their attempt at moving the orcs away from that position is actually (very loosely!) following some of tolkien's later writings, which also expressed his own discomfort with them being perceived as always chaotic evil - their being written that way was a convenience he seems to have not thought through too deeply in his earlier writings but been increasingly unsettled by over the years.
as such,

Tolkien lore doesn't give any latitude for "evil" creatures.

isn't actually true - there's a lot more grey in the extended writings than the simple mostly black and white you get from just lotr (though even there there is more grey than people generally remember). there's plenty of latitude, and there's a road to forgiveness, if you choose it. it's the weird tradcath in him.

 

[NPC99]

there's a lot more grey in the extended writings than the simple mostly black and white you get from just lotr (though even there there is more grey than people generally remember). there's plenty of latitude, and there's a road to forgiveness, if you choose it. it's the weird tradcath in him

Maybe in later writing, but LOTR his major work was clearcut. Gimli and Legolas competing for kills is cartoonish in its dismissal of any right for Orcs to exist in Middle Earth. Similar vibe to slaughtering zombies in modern B movies.

 

[Antoine de Saint-Exupéry]

that is what i said, yes.

 

[Ser Jon]

Maybe, but ROP hasn't redeemed them much. Nowhere as much as the Warhammer film where orcs/goblins were allowed to be more than cardboard villains. Tolkien lore doesn't give any latitude for "evil" creatures.

No, they haven't, I agree. It's probably going to be a much bigger story moving forward though.

 

[Pentagathoos]

No, again, that's a gross oversimplification of my point. Tolkien described darker skinned characters, and that's all we know. That they are dark skinned. That he took the effort, multiple times, to let readers know they were not "fair of skin" (white) and that anyone claiming that the only non-white people in all of Middle-Earth are from Far Harad because they think Tolkien meant "darker skinned white people" for every instance of characters/races described as darker, is absolutely and positively ridiculous.

No, again it is exactly your point. You are once again just saying that x being darker than y must mean x is not white, whereas IRL many groups of people described as white are darker than many other groups of people described as white. I'm not sure why you keep bothering to find different ways to say the exact same thing whilst simultaneously claiming it's not what you're saying.

 

[Ser Jon]

No, again it is exactly your point. You are once again just saying that x being darker than y must mean x is not white, whereas IRL many groups of people described as white are darker than many other groups of people described as white. I'm not sure why you keep bothering to find different ways to say the exact same thing whilst simultaneously claiming it's not what you're saying.

No... it isn't what I "exactly" said. It was brought up that there are no non-whites due to a complaint I made about racist idiots. I brought up the description of the Harfoots etc etc as an example that there are darker skinned people clearly within Middle-Earth. The point, or assumption, wasn't that ALL darker skinner characters mentioned HAVE to be non-white. Just that Tolkien did go through effort to leave descriptions of specifically not fair skinned people and that to claim there are not, that they are just "darker white people", is pure idiocy. It is not my fault you kept assuming that my point was that there are no darker white people, over and over again. This is part of the point you repeatedly fail to grasp. It's not a different way to describe the same thing and the fact that you think that it is, is part of the problem of you understanding the entire point.

We're never going to agree on this, it seems, so: you don't think non-whites exist in Middle-Earth outside of Far Harad. I do not think this way. Agree to disagree.

 

[Pentagathoos]

No... it isn't what I "exactly" said. It was brought up that there are no non-whites due to a complaint I made about racist idiots. I brought up the description of the Harfoots etc etc as an example that there are darker skinned people clearly within Middle-Earth. The point, or assumption, wasn't that ALL darker skinner characters mentioned HAVE to be non-white. Just that Tolkien did go through effort to leave descriptions of specifically not fair skinned people and that to claim there are not, that they are just "darker white people", is pure idiocy.

We're never going to agree on this, it seems, so: you don't think non-whites exist in Middle-Earth outside of Far Harad. I do not think this way. Agree to disagree.

Perhaps you should actually read my posts then.
I never claimed there are no POC outside of Far Harad, I have indeed explicitly stated that I imagine (and believe Tolkien imagined if that wasn't clear) various peoples to be non white, I just don't think that the Harfoots, Breelanders or the Dunlendings are examples of these, despite all of these groups being described as darker than particularly fair skinned peoples. Because as I've pointed out very many times, many groups of white people are darker than many other groups of white people, and tanned white people are often described as being brown, particularly in the eras that Tolkien grew up in and was writing in.
Perhaps this makes me a pure idiot, but it would also seem to make almost every artist (including Tolkien himself apparently) an idiot I guess since pretty much all middle earth art work (again including Tolkien's own drawings) depict hobbits, men of Bree and Dunlendings as being white people (often tanned white people to be sure), and yes this is even true before the PJ films were made (as far as I can tell). The Ralph Bakshi animated films do show the Hobbits as having the kind of skin tone you might see in meso-americans, idk whether this comes from Tolkien's input but it wouldn't exactly melt my brain if that turned out to be the case.

My initial point was that the Harfoots are unlikely to be black/indian/various darker skin colours as depicted in ROP, since even Sam (who iirc is described as having brown hands many times) remarks on the people of far Harad being very dark skinned (apparently the hobbits have legends of "swartings" from far southern lands, which Tolkien writes in the appendices or in one of his letters is probably related to the word swarthy and refers to people with particularly dark skin), and I think it is rather unlikely that if there are black hobbits living in the shire, that Sam would find the dark skinned Haradrim particularly remarkable, or that they would have legends of dark skinned humans living far off in the south if the men of the surrounding areas were also dark skinned.
Now of course the Harfoots could be some other kind of POC but simply much less dark toned than the men of Harad, and again it wouldn't blow my mind if that's what they're meant to be. Personally I imagine them as looking like tanned southern Europeans, and once again I really don't care if they're meant to be darker than that, I just don't think they are.

 

[Ser Jon]

Rings of Power has recast the man playing Adar, with Sam Hazeldine (Peaky Blinders). They usually only do this if the character is being bumped up to a more important, and more frequent, position within the cast. Which probably means the "let the Orcs live" story line is going to be explored more.

They also casted a whole bunch of new people, though nothing about the characters they will be playing. I'm going to suspect two of them are at least going to be playing OCs. lol