Great Khan Information and General Discussion

[Wei.Xiadi]

It is based on the war against the Jin, which as a country, is my general area of expertise.  Besides its only fair if we all get an equal chance to make the expansion packs/continuations a little..different from each other.  Mongol beta is molded around all of our work, but Ben has a influence over it, just as Kongol does.  So it'll maybe even add a somewhat different feel to the game!

As for the faction set up, i was thinking of having the Naiman Alliance, Genghis Kahn's army, the Western Xia, Jin and either southern Song or another nomadic tribe that hasn't joined them yet.  Just because the idea of having to bind mongol into 1 state and then move onto Jin before they get the Xia to help them crush Mongolia would be exciting as Hell.

Team:
Wei.Xiadi - Textures, Models, Historical Advisory, Project Leader
Kongol Khan - Map, Asian Faces
Eumolpus - Screenshots and Face Textures
Peter - Some Models
Gculk - Concept Art
Mertbey - Face Textures
Pali Gap - Coding

 

[ben34698]

As is previously stated, Wei.Xiadi is the project leader for this mod.

And Wei.Xiadi, I know we've already done a great deal of Chinese armors for Mongol, so if you just give me a list of some troops you want me to make, I'll make them, and we can work on Mongol and Great Khan simultaniously.

 

[Hulagu Khan]

if you can find a map (any map really) and circle the areas you plan to use in the mod, i will gladly get started on it (after i finish asian faces for heros).

 

[Wei.Xiadi]

I can't find a map of both maps joined.  But heres a map of Mongolia (no idea what time frame) and a map of Jin, song, dali and western Xia.

I was thinking of, having half of the current map we have now, (the southern section) expanding the desert (gobi desert) and then adding northern china.  probbaly up to Kaifeng or possibly borderlining the southern Song.

The factions would probably be...

Naiman Alliance
Temujin's army
The Western Xia
Jin
Song

The Dali (plus any other forces active in this time period) can be bandits, like wandering forces wanting to terminate INFIDELS..I dunno, but it'd be fun to have all of china there, even if the 5th kingdom is a lot smaller then the others (but probably compensated some other way perhaps),

Any suggestions would be nice.  Also Ben - for the troops I plan on a complete new set.  When people download the expansion pack for Mongol they'll see a lot more of the reason (why) Mongols didn't want to fight the rich Jin empire.

We'll also possibly add in some form of gate or SOMETHING to represent known battle sites when the mongols DID invade the Jin/Chin.

pics are here...

Spoiler

 

[Hulagu Khan]

are we going to have the Great Wall? 

 

[Wei.Xiadi]

We could add it...a simple block of wall duplicated to corner off a section of the map, make it then unpassable terraine by having a mountain sit under it for effects, that way Mongols would HAVE to move through western Xia to invade china (which is historically accurate)...if we can make it so the chinese can get to Mongolia but mongols cant reach china unless through the xia region - that'd TOTALLY ROCK.

but i think thats impossible, unless we convert the great wall into a ****ed up castle, make it so whoever is inside cannot attack or move garrison and give them so many troops only a moronic nomad would attack..then that could work too.

 

[Hulagu Khan]

I think it'll be easy... just add a rock terrain right under the Great Wall, size it down so it fits perfectly and so you cant see it, and it will be impassible terrian. (if im correct about rock being impassible of course.... my experience says yes but ive never tested rock on flat ground before).

 

[Wei.Xiadi]

Then yeah, when you get a chance to add the rock formation outline, do so and we'll cover it up with the walls. (I'm building the walls, then I can say i actually did a MODEL on the map, but..it MAY take awhile ^^)

We'll want to get various weapons, including the Ji, Guan Dao, Dao, Shi, San, Fu, Fu Zi, Qiang and depending on the circumstance,s some sort of explosive bombs (we know they had forms of bombs at around this time period, not 100% sure on the details of it though).

They may also have gotten different weapons at this time period, since i specialise more in the end of the 3k and the start of the Jin empire which is like...hundreds of years before this.  (but things like lamellar was still used, in fact I have no idea what they improved on, they had huge citadel sized cities in 189 AD...but oh well) I'll research more later.

 

[ben34698]

I have no idea how to make it so that one faction can pass through an area and another can't, except maybe if there was like a guard party that was immobile and was large enough that any army that wasn't HUGE would run away from it or something.  But then the player could get in just fine, and there would be tons of issues.  But great I dea with the Wall.

 

[Subuatai]

A suggestion: Implement age of machinery siege warfare. China at this time was still incredibly technologically advanced compared to any other nation in the world. This era should also represent the innovations of the Mongol forces in terms of siege warfare.

As for the Naiman Alliance? Actually the Naimans under Kushluk fled to seek shelter with the Kara-Khitai Khanate to the west and therefore the enemies of Chingghis Khaan was not the "Naiman Alliance" - but the Kara Khitai Khanate.

EDIT: Stop editing my posts Ben!

 

[ben34698]

Okay, Subuatai, remember, this is Wei.Xiadi's mod, and he may do what he wishes with the history, as his the historical advisor.  We thank you for your input, however.

 

[Subuatai]

Anytime

Either then the Naiman Alliance, everything else looks sweet 

 

[Wei.Xiadi]

A suggestion: Implement age of machinery siege warfare. China at this time was still incredibly technologically advanced compared to any other nation in the world. This era should also represent the innovations of the Mongol forces in terms of siege warfare.

As for the Naiman Alliance? Actually the Naimans under Kushluk fled to seek shelter with the Kara-Khitai Khanate to the west and therefore the enemies of Chingghis Khaan was not the "Naiman Alliance" - but the Kara Khitai Khanate.

EDIT: Stop editing my posts Ben!

Note to Ben: I like the support, but I highly doubt anyone can 'push' me into doing anything I don't want to, why? - because i'm just THAT GREAT. 

As for you Subu - I always heard it was the naimans who tried to get the alliance, I heard the tribes helping the Naimans were Jajirat, Oirat, Naimans, ect ect.  I'm probably wrong, but Genghis had already stolen the idea of Chin armour by this point and had used it to crush the naimans who still wore studded leather.  I'm no historian in mongolian warfare/or history so I pick these things up from books, novels, historical notes, ect ect

But sure, if you can name me some cool things that we can add, possibly ANOTHER tribe that waged so that we can have 5 tribes WITHOUT the need of the Southern Song, since that'd just be silly, 3 chinese kingdoms = pointless.  Song did nothing of any historical use at this current time frame.  Heck song watched Mongolia take over northern Jin xD for years befoe having a war themselves, (which they totally lost and wasn't re-taken back into chinese culture until the rise of the Yuan empire.)  But yeah, any ideas or historical notes on improving the historical side of this mod is appreciated, granted - don't give me 2 pages full of it that i find painful to read lol

But keep up the suggestions, I'd like more then 5 tribes if i'm able, maybe have 8, but keep the majority of the kingdoms small to reflect why thet needed to band together to take on genghis or the Jin empire.

 

[Subuatai]

The Naimans under Kushluk was defeated by Chingghis Khaan and fled to seek shelter with the Kara-Khitai Khanate. Only some Oirats and remnants of Jamukha's troops joined Kushluk's trek westward. For me, I am Uriankhai/Torghuud, of the Oirat people, my ancestry goes from Kalmyk -> Dzungar -> Oirat -> Mongol -> Uriankhai/Torghuud/Merkit. So I know my history well in this regard. Also note - us Oirats were a different confederation prior and after Chingghis Khaan. Now in the case of the Oirats prior to Chingghis Khaan:

Oirats were subjicated by Jochi in 1207, we were not allies of the Naimans. Some may have fled with Kushluk, but I need to verify this - however, it is entirely possible. So it wasn't an alliance, the Naimans had diplomatic ties with the Kara-Khitai yes, but they actually usurped the throne in 1211. His Khanate, was the Kara-Khitai Khanate, not anything called "Naiman Alliance". To be historically accurate, the Kara-Khitai was the united enemy against Chingghis Khaan's Mongols. The Kara-Khitai then became subjicated like other tribes, and fought under the name "Mongol", same with Turks as well right until the death of Batu Khan.

The actual nations you have suggested however - I can't see anything non-historical about it either the name "Naiman Alliance", as a pure historical freak - I'm going to find it extremely difficult to make up a new faction when those nations you've already mentioned are already correct  But yes, I agree, that the Song dynasty didn't have much influence in this era. You may of course, implement the Khwarezmian Empire. Which was the next target of the Mongols after they assassinated Chingghis Khaan's ambassadors.

 

[Wei.Xiadi]

Brilliant. Although I did want to keep this mod based on Mongol and China, the wars thet had were epic, especially how they conquered the cities in the beginning of the war, by using the 3 tents.  That was epic. 

So, is it possible to..divide these (groups) of tribes into lesser tribal forces.  Maybe have it set a year or so before we want it to just to add the extra tribes I desire.  I want 8 and we certaintly don't have 8 tribes in use.  So any help there would be great.

 

[Subuatai]

Well for the actual factions and confederations: The above five are suitable, change Naiman Alliance to Kara-Khitai Khanate and you got yourself a historical mod. This period is the rise of Chingghis Khaan, and he is seen as a hero by both Turks and Mongols, not just Mongols, because he united Mongolic and Turkic tribes under a new banner and showed the world serious power that exists in unity. "One arrow is like one tribe, easily broken. But many arrows, many tribes, can never be broken"

So unfortunately, most of the nomadic tribes have been united under new confederacies at this era. So distinct tribal groups and systems were thrown out in favor of the meritocratic government. However, for the tribes, you can implement the tribes into troop trees of course - these can be rebel troops. These tribes are: Oirats, rebels of Merkits, remnants of Jadaran, rebels of Taichud. Either then those, it's impossible to get ne-one else without implementing fantasy. The Uyghur Turks joined voluntarily and are to complemented for presenting the traditional Mongol written language - the Uyghur script. Even earlier it was pretty much Chingghis Khaan VS Jamukha. The Altaic people were uniting in this era.

 

[Hulagu Khan]

Would we be having the Mongol invasion of Japan within this mod? Im not sure of the time differences though. But that would be interesting. Samurai's vs Mongols. It failed historically because of storms 

 

[Wei.Xiadi]

Would we be having the Mongol invasion of Japan within this mod? Im not sure of the time differences though. But that would be interesting. Samurai's vs Mongols. It failed historically because of storms 

Nope, it won't be in this mod and the Mongol invasion of Japan which got utterly ruined because of the sea..didn't happen until years after this time period.  o think it happened after the 2nd Chinese expedition.

 

[ben34698]

Maybe that should be our fourth Mongol project. xD

 

[Hulagu Khan]

i think we're swamped enough as it is.. for now.