Europe1200 Liaison Thread

[corwin_of_amber]

As the subject line suggests, I was wondering whether you had any plans to revive that mod? ToC:Sicily was really a work of pure genius, and it had so many spectacular features that alas, aren't present in any of the warband mods now...

If you do not intend to revive it, have you at least considered helping an existing mod to implement some of its features? For example, there is a warband mod called Europe1200 which has a very dedicated ensemble of researchers and modders who have been working on it for years and it is still actively being worked on and updated. If you pitch in, maybe your vision for ToC:Sicily can be realized through this existing mod...

Just my two cents.

Cheers!

 

[nijis]

Thanks for the kind words!

I don't have any plans to revive it -- it turned out to be biting off more than I can chew. I still am fascinated by the campaigning aspects of pre-modern warfare and I hope to implement some of them as EoF evolves.

I'd be more than happy helping any existing modders implement any of the features that interest them. Europe 1200 looks like a great project and I'm glad to see that it's still being regularly updated.

 

[corwin_of_amber]

I'd be more than happy helping any existing modders implement any of the features that interest them. Europe 1200 looks like a great project and I'm glad to see that it's still being regularly updated.

That is really good to hear!  I will deliver the great news to the core Europe1200 team. Also whenever you get an idea or feature that you think can be implemented, please feel free to make a post in the mod's forum, any input will always be very much appreciated.

 

[corwin_of_amber]

Hello Nijis

I spoke with the moderators of the Europe 1200 mod (Korinov [coder/mod leader] and Cèsar de Quart) and they are very much interested in implementing the character trait system of ToC:Sicily in Europe1200 if you can help with implementing it.

I know the trait system was not fully fleshed out in ToC:Sicily, but is it possible to implement the existing system and then add to it slowly with time?

Here I have compiled a detailed list of the traits and ideas on how they would be affected by the player’s actions (only the player will have variable traits, everyone else’s traits will be static so as not to create lag). These are just ideas, not all of them will be implementable of course.

Character creation system:

Spoiler

Cunning – neutral – Unwise
Bold – neutral – Indecisive
Merciful – neutral – Cruel
Generous – neutral – Thrifty
Pious – neutral – Impious
Just – neutral – Unjust
Honest – neutral – Deceitful
Chivalrous – neutral – Petty
Loyal – neutral – Disloyal
Well-mannered Noble – neutral – Unrefined Plebian
Orthodox/Mainstream views – neutral – Eccentric views
Lucky – neutral - Unlucky

At the start of the game the player is given 13 points. The points would be spent as such:
A positive trait costs 2 points.
A neutral/Average trait costs 1 point.
A negative trait costs 0 points.

This would add a very engaging role-playing element to the game. Of course these traits would not be fixed in stone but vary according to the players actions. Here’s how gameplay actions can affect these traits:

Cunning – neutral – Unwise:
Managing your fiefs effectively (+)
Starting a successful business (+)
Losing a battle (--)
Winning battles with few causalities while inflicting heavy losses on the enemy (+)
Insulting or getting into fights with other vassals (-)
Winning or losing a risky gamble (supporting a claimant, rebelling…) (+ -)
Selling items with large profits (+)
Sneaking undercover into an enemy city (+)
Meeting a spy in an enemy city (+) (also increases bold)
Persuading two factions to make peace (+) (also + to merciful)
Persuading two factions to go to war (+) (also - to merciful)
Helping a Guildmaster achieving monopoly by taking out another merchant for example through coercion or use of force (+) (also – to unjust)
Doing the capture the spy mission or assassination plot (+) or failing it (-)
Capturing enemy scouts/messengers (+) (not sure whether this is implementable or not, but it would be cool.)
Convincing lords to become your vassal (+)
Convincing lieges to recognize your right to rule (+)
Solving a crime (new mission type) (+) (influence from The Name of the Rose)
Prescribing leeches for a sick man (+)

Bold – neutral – Indecisive
Attacking numerically superior opponents on the campaign map (+) (also - to cunning if you lose the battle)
Charging into the fray on the battlefield (+)
Running away from battles or letting your troops fight by themselves (-)
Leaving behind people while you escape (--)
Launching a sortie against an army laying a siege to your castle while you are inside it (+) (there should be the option to do that)
Delivering supplies to a castle/city under siege covertly (+) (also + to chivalry + cunning)
Rescuing a lord (+) (also + to cunning + Chivalrous)
Winning a tournament (+)

Merciful – neutral – Cruel
Punishment inflicted upon your men if they commit a crime should fit the crime (steal cattle from a nearby village, murdered a fellow soldier, stole from a fellow soldier, maimed a horse, stole from the supply cart… ) (+-) (Medieval legal codes can be used here)
Treatment of peasants (+-)
Treatment of captured lords (+-)
Treatment of prisoners (+-)
Treatment of heretics (if heretics are implemented in the game) (+-) (also +- to piety)
Providing supplies for a village in need (+) or telling them you are on your own (-)
Forgiving someone who cannot pay his debt to you (+)
Insisting that a village pay you your due in full even if they are poor or have been recently raided (-)
Forcing captured fiefs to convert by force (-) (yes there should be an option to convert villages en masse after being captured. This was especially popular during the Spanish reconquista.)
Administering barbaric punishments (-)
Beheading a minstrel during a random event because you were insulted by his jest (-) (also – to just)

Generous – neutral – Thrifty
Throwing lavish banquets at your castle that spare no expense (+)
Throwing banquets with a poor variety of food or drinks (-)
Sponsoring a tournament in your name (+)
Buying drinks for everyone in the tavern (+) (- to pious)
Providing troops with a variety of food items (+)
Buying quality gifts for your wife (+)
Founding charitable projects (+)
Loaning money to soldiers/lords/fiefs/peasants in need without interest (+) (Also + to piety)
Not doing any of those things for an extended period of time (-)
Offering a monetary reward for the soldier with the most kills (+)
Paying money for the families of those who died in battle (+) (option that comes up randomly after some battles.)
Lending a companion with a high engineering skill to a city/village to help them build/repair a dam/aqueduct/town defenses… (+)
Lending a companion to another vassal (+) (also increases cunning)
Inviting a lord you come across in the wilderness over a great meal (+) or just bread and water (-) (your relationship with the lord also changes accordingly)
Endowing a monastery (Christians) or ribat/masjid (muslims) in a village (+)

Pious – neutral – Impious
Asking the court priest/imam for blessing/advice (+)
Making pilgrimage to religious sites or cities (+)
Doing missions for the town priest/imam
Reading a holy book or Lives of the Saints (+)
Reading a heretical book (-)
Lending a companion with a high engineering skill for a city/village to build a church/mosque (+)
Funding the building of a Cathedral/Mosque in a city (+) (also + to generosity)
Looting churches/mosques (-)
The way you treat holy relics that you might discover on your travels (+-)
Dealing with a companions religious doubts (+-) (depends on the advice you offer in the dialogue options)
Making charitable donations for a priest/imam (+) or refusing to give any money when asked (-)
Blaspheming in dialogue options (-)
Attacking a wanted man while hiding in a religious sanctuary (---) (people where very superstitious about violating the sanctity of religious sanctuaries of saints and would make all sorts of promises – which often went unfulfilled – to coax people they want out of their safe haven)
Preaching to the unbelievers and converting villages (+)
Taking action while waiting to scribe a religious book (+) (calligraphy was a common pastime among muslim lords of that era)
Courting a married woman (-) (Historically, writing a love poem to a married noblewoman was regarded the same as casting a spell on her and was liable with the death penalty)
Buying penance from a priest (+) (Historically quite widespread at that time.)
Condemning an old woman as a witch in a random event (+) (also - to honest and – to merciful)

Just – neutral – Unjust
Punishing troops for their crimes appropriately (+) (Medieval laws were very meticulous in listing crimes and their potential punishments)
Being lax when troops commit crimes (-)
Freeing prisoners rather than selling them (-) (yes it is negative because your troops will not like it that you are squandering part of their loot) (+ to merciful + to chivalrous)
Forcing soldiers to give all their loot to you (-)
Treating your vassals well (+)
Distributing loot appropriately (+)
Arbitrating conflicts fairly even against your own self interest if necessary (+)
Dealing with a deserter (+-) (would also have an effect or merciful/cruel)
Hunting down a criminal (+)
Resolving companions issues (+-)
Not resting in a tavern for a long while (-) (also - to merciful)
Punishing someone among your troops who was counterfeited official signatures. (+) (Historical punishment of the crime at that time period was death.)
Not paying troop wages (-) (also – to generous)

Honest – neutral – Deceitful
Being truthful when a lord asks you what you think about one of his vassals (+)
Conspiring against another vassal (-)
Forcing the guildmaster to pay more after rescuing a hostage, or else… (-)
Making promises and then failing to honor them. (for example you might promise a lord some money or even a fief if he supports you in a war/battle but then dishonor the agreement.)
Slandering a vassal or a lady (-)
Conspiring preemptively against one of your vassals (-) (you might be justified in doing so but you will still be perceived by others as deceitful.)
Giving correct directions for travelers or pilgrims who got lost (+)
Returning a lost treasure bag to its rightful owner (+) (for example you may randomly come across a dead courier with a pouch of money for a certain lord. If you return the money to lord you gain some relation to him and a point in honesty. Keeping the money to yourself however ‘finders keepers’ would decrease your honesty rating) (this is also based on a historical event by a 12th century nobleman)
Tricking a lord/merchant to buy an alchemical formula that turns iron to gold (-) (also + to cunning) (Again common for the era.)
Tricking a lord/merchant to buy an elixir of eternal life concocted using the Philosopher’s Stone (-) (also + to cunning) (also common for the era. See: Secret Book of Artephius.)
Selling a ‘love potion’ formula for a lord who wants to woo a noblewoman playing hard to get(-)(also + to cunning)

Chivalrous – neutral – Petty
Sacking villages (-) (also – to merciful)
Releasing a lord who fought well (+)
Lending a companion with high rating in medicine to cure another vassal or even a vassal you are at war with (++) (there are historical cases like this by the way).
Helping villagers who are being attacked by bandits (+)
Helping a caravan against bandits (+)
Preventing a town from being raided (+)
Helping a village infested with bandits and then not taking a reward for saving them (+)
Courting a lady with poems and flowers/gifts (+)
Not allowing your troops to rape captured women (+) (it would increase ‘unjust’ though because the troops will think you are denying them their rightful due.)
Executing captured troops (can be implemented as an option after a victorious battle) (-) (- to merciful)
Refusing to assassinate a merchant for the sake of another lord (+)
Rescuing a girl from captors (+)
Dueling with a lord because he is slandering a lady (+)
Attacking or robbing peasants (-)
Attacking troublesome bandits and refusing reward (+) (- to ‘just’ because of perception of troops)
Attacking/robbing pilgrims (-) (groups of traveling pilgrims should be introduced to warband)
Scaring peasantry into working the land maybe through beating some of them up (+) (yes, oddly enough this was chivalrous according to the Book on the order of Chivalry)
Taking the time to train your villagers to defend themselves (+) (should also decrease chances that your village will be infested with bandits)

Loyal – neutral – Disloyal
Leading a rebellion against a liege you were a vassal to (-)
Attending when you are called upon by the liege or marshal (+)
Dialogue options regarding the topic (+-)

Well-mannered Noble – neutral – Unrefined Plebian
Depends on choice made in dialogue options (+-)
Addressing lieges, lords, and companions with respect (+)
Toasts made in taverns (+-)
Way of addressing or treating your wife (+-)
Working as a freelancer or mercenary for a lord (-)
Making rude jokes during conversations (medieval humor can be quite coarse at times. Not different than today, I suppose…)
Taking part in pit fights (-)
Reading books (+-) (for example reading Tristan and Isolde would be + while reading Martial’s Epigrams would be -)
Buying luxury items (velvet, spice, silks… )(+)
Playing chess (+) / Playing with dice or cards (-) (options while waiting)
Marrying a peasant woman (-) (this option could be implemented) (also – orthodox views)
Hiring a Minstrel to your court (+) (there should be the option to do so)

Orthodox/Mainstream views – neutral – Eccentric views
Depends on choices made in dialogue options with companions (+-)
Rescuing heretics from the church (-)
Rescuing witches from inquisitors (-)
Supporting a Cathars rebellion for Christians or Hashashin for Muslim (-) (also – to pious)
Reading scientific books (-)
Using reading lenses (-) (This one is inspired from The Name of the Rose)
In a random event one of your troops would tell you he is sick and asks for medication. If you prescribe cleaning of wounds, a good diet, and medicinal poultice you would be viewed as eccentric (In fact the soldier might be displeased with your advice. It also decreases cunning). However if you prescribe bloodletting for getting the ‘humours’ in the correct balance and a visit to the priest to weed out the demon infecting you then you are viewed as orthodox (and the soldier is pleased by your wisdom and your cunning also increases – even if the soldier ends up dead later on).
Having a negative view towards ‘ordeal by water’ or ‘ordeal by fire’ in a dialogue option (-)
Having positive/progressive views towards women in dialogue options (-)

Lucky – neutral – Unlucky (this can have a significant influence on troop morale. Troops love serving under lucky commander whom the heavens seem to smile upon.)
Winning frequently (+)
Losing frequently (-)

Influence on the game:
In addition to the role playing element of these personality traits, they would also have an effect on your relationship with other lords. Your liege might like you more if you share some traits. You are also more likely to be admired by other fiefs if you are loyal. Also vassals are more likely to join you if you are honest…

These traits can also affect how others treat you: peasants, caravans, religious people, guards, troops, merchants, guildmasters… For example, if you have a low cunning rating, some merchants may try to dupe you. Troops will be happier under a just and lucky leader. Companions’ happiness will also be influenced by your traits and may refuse to join/leave your party if you gain traits they find extremely unfavorable. Cunning leaders escape prison faster. Hesitant leaders may try talk their way out of battle if numbers are not in their favor. Disloyal lords are more like to join you but are also more likely to turn on you later on. Chivalrous lords might release you if you are captured… and so on for all traits.

 

[nijis]

The ideas are all very good. One word of warning, though -- one reason why I did not persist in having a fully developed multi-trait character system is that the amount of coding can be quite large, and, in particular, you need to figure out a way in which the options can be easily set up and tested.

A lot of those options already exist in the game, and a lot of others are easily set up through dialogs. For random events, I would recommend having a single trigger that occurs every so often that pops up a character -- like the soldier who steals a sheep, but with many other options determined by circumstances.

You want to make sure that these encounters pop up in a way

For testing/designing purposes, rather than actually set up the whole thing, just have that trigger deliver a list of random encounters that can occur in the circumstances in which you find yourself (ie, so that you get bothered by jesters when resting in a castle, not running for your life from an enemy).

For example, you might have the following set of circumstance determinants:
* In a castle or city
* In your own land
* In friendly territory
* Close to an enemy party
* High/low morale

and these would determine which random event dialogs might occur.

To start off, the trigger might simply generate a list. Here's an example that might occur when you're marching through allied territory...
* Soldier steals sheep (POSSIBLE)
* Soldier insults farmer's wife at tavern (NOT POSSIBLE)
* Woman accused of witchcraft (NOT POSSIBLE)
* Insulting jester (NOT POSSIBLE)

as opposed to territory you govern
* Soldier steals sheep (POSSIBLE)
* Soldier insults farmer's wife at tavern (NOT POSSIBLE)
* Woman accused of witchcraft (POSSIBLE)
* Insulting jester (NOT POSSIBLE)

as opposed to resting at a city (if you don't want to force the player to rest, you might have the trigger fire as you leave a city)
* Soldier steals sheep (NOT POSSIBLE)
* Soldier insults farmer's wife at tavern (POSSIBLE)
* Woman accused of witchcraft (POSSIBLE)
* Insulting jester (POSSIBLE)

Anyway, those would be some thoughts on how to implement the traits.

 

[corwin_of_amber]

The ideas are all very good. One word of warning, though -- one reason why I did not persist in having a fully developed multi-trait character system is that the amount of coding can be quite large, and, in particular, you need to figure out a way in which the options can be easily set up and tested.

A lot of those options already exist in the game, and a lot of others are easily set up through dialogs. For random events, I would recommend having a single trigger that occurs every so often that pops up a character -- like the soldier who steals a sheep, but with many other options determined by circumstances.

You want to make sure that these encounters pop up in a way

For testing/designing purposes, rather than actually set up the whole thing, just have that trigger deliver a list of random encounters that can occur in the circumstances in which you find yourself (ie, so that you get bothered by jesters when resting in a castle, not running for your life from an enemy).

For example, you might have the following set of circumstance determinants:
* In a castle or city
* In your own land
* In friendly territory
* Close to an enemy party
* High/low morale

and these would determine which random event dialogs might occur.

To start off, the trigger might simply generate a list. Here's an example that might occur when you're marching through allied territory...
* Soldier steals sheep (POSSIBLE)
* Soldier insults farmer's wife at tavern (NOT POSSIBLE)
* Woman accused of witchcraft (NOT POSSIBLE)
* Insulting jester (NOT POSSIBLE)

as opposed to territory you govern
* Soldier steals sheep (POSSIBLE)
* Soldier insults farmer's wife at tavern (NOT POSSIBLE)
* Woman accused of witchcraft (POSSIBLE)
* Insulting jester (NOT POSSIBLE)

as opposed to resting at a city (if you don't want to force the player to rest, you might have the trigger fire as you leave a city)
* Soldier steals sheep (NOT POSSIBLE)
* Soldier insults farmer's wife at tavern (POSSIBLE)
* Woman accused of witchcraft (POSSIBLE)
* Insulting jester (POSSIBLE)

Anyway, those would be some thoughts on how to implement the traits.

Thank you for all these ideas and notes, I will relay them to EU1200 team.

Concerning the coding of the character trait system, Korinov (EU1200's only coder at the moment) is already overwhelmed with implementing factions, features, and bug fixes despite his interest in your character trait system. However he said if you're willing to contribute the code for it, he would certainly implement it.

I hope you'll be up for this because EU1200 team are really excited about having an additional expert coder on the team. You can always post any ideas, suggestions, or code in the EU1200 Forum.

And by the way, if you decide to help out with implementing the trait system, it doesn't have to be all the ideas I mentioned. At first it can be just the options that are already coded for ToC:Sicily. Then with time it can be expanded possibly with some input from Korinov.

All the best.

 

[Ariel]

Oh, yeah, I remember the trait system quite well, from when I attempted to port BfS to the .900 version. It's actually one of the few thing I succeeded in implanted, that and the companion guy. Then I tried to port the fief system, and I realized it was linked to the economy system or something, and that's when it all went wrong... That and the fact that many used code command had changed.

But the trait system wasn't that complicated, it's something that's possible to port without any programming skills, you just need the notepad, the sourcecode from BfS, and a looot of patience when you copy past. I wish you luck!

 

[nijis]

Unfortunately I can't do any coding of my own right now -- I've already got a pretty full schedule. Korinov is actually quite wise to finish the features he's doing before moving to anything else, as that's a mistake I've often made. Don't hesitate however to ask me if you have any problems thinking how to implement a feature, be it part of BfS or something of your own. By now, I've experimented in a pretty wide range of topics.

Ariel -- sorry that porting proved so difficult. There were a lot of different systems, many integrated, not all working well. I too ultimately found it very hard to port between versions.

EoF is designed with some of these mistakes in my mind.