Gustav - Teuton Knight
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Shamble said:Was quite nice and fun, thanks for the event
Someone that is not crying! nice! I'm glad you liked it, we expect you for next sunday!
Brandenburg-Prussia Army Event
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Sergeant at Arms
Someone that is not crying! nice! I'm glad you liked it, we expect you for next sunday!
Gustav - Teuton Knight
Sergeant at Arms
Haresus said:
I think rules were clear enough, but I should have especefied the bow thing, didn't expected a horde of savage slavs with bows making a hit 'n' run all day long. And yeah, more Infantry would have been nice, but player base isn't that big.
Next battle on sunday? I thought you wanted to do the next on friday...
Gustav - Teuton Knight
Sergeant at Arms
This Shows how after I said no more bows you just continued using them hehe... Nice vid ChW!flacktub said:
RW perspective of the battle. It's 17 minutes of raw material without any cuts.
I didn't watch the whole thing myself, so I have no damn idea what did I record. xD
I didn't watch the whole thing myself, so I have no damn idea what did I record. xD
I would like to notice, that the rule about no bows is absolutely ridiculous. The weapon is not overpowered. The tercio tactic is simply very bad against it. If you want a "realistic" battle, you can't ban one of the most frequently used weapon of the time. (In case of cavalry)
What I see here is you trying to do anything possible to make tercio tactics prevail. Lack of engineers is a good example, since one or two grenades would make a short work of your weak, tightly packed formation. Ban on cannons apply here too.
If you want your event to be successful, you can't put such restrictions, because it makes the whole thing awfully dull. Otherwise simple call it line battles and ban cavalry as whole, why not?
What I see here is you trying to do anything possible to make tercio tactics prevail. Lack of engineers is a good example, since one or two grenades would make a short work of your weak, tightly packed formation. Ban on cannons apply here too.
If you want your event to be successful, you can't put such restrictions, because it makes the whole thing awfully dull. Otherwise simple call it line battles and ban cavalry as whole, why not?
I watched the previously linked by flacktub and I'd like to say what I think.
The Polish setup simply was better than the Swedish, HOWEVER - It is their own fault.
Until the very end, I saw almost no pikemen. WHY?
And the musketeers, which were the most numerous, were absolutely useless and vulnerable to cavalry. They just got cut down when charged by cavalry.
More pikemen and less muskets(Tercio for crying out loud!) and it would have been different.
Still, I enjoyed it. Would have been far more epic if it played out on Kirchholm, and the musketeers would not be as vulnerable.
The Polish setup simply was better than the Swedish, HOWEVER - It is their own fault.
Until the very end, I saw almost no pikemen. WHY?
And the musketeers, which were the most numerous, were absolutely useless and vulnerable to cavalry. They just got cut down when charged by cavalry.
More pikemen and less muskets(Tercio for crying out loud!) and it would have been different.
Still, I enjoyed it. Would have been far more epic if it played out on Kirchholm, and the musketeers would not be as vulnerable.
I strongly disagree with you YSD. They had plenty of pikemen which got gunned down. If they had any more, they could not effectively engage Polish shooters who would wear them out and they would be butchered by cavalry anyway.
The thing is, that tercio as formation is highly ineffective against combined forces. In theory they are capable of fending off (light) cavalry and shoot down enemy's infantry. But in reality they can't take down enemy's shooters, because they don't have enough of them on their side, and can't fend off cavalry, because their pikemen get shot. All that combined with a fact, that light cavalry will just rain arrows at them makes things even worse for them, because their own cavalry is not capable of engaging Poles by themselves, and cannot depend on support from their infantry.
In short, as long, as tercio can't hole up somewhere, they have no chances in engaging combined forces of Polish army. What is pretty damn historically accurate, because at that time there was no army that could best Poles in the open field. No matter of tactics or strategy, Poles mostly prevailed because of that. Combined forces and superior cavalry.
The thing is, that tercio as formation is highly ineffective against combined forces. In theory they are capable of fending off (light) cavalry and shoot down enemy's infantry. But in reality they can't take down enemy's shooters, because they don't have enough of them on their side, and can't fend off cavalry, because their pikemen get shot. All that combined with a fact, that light cavalry will just rain arrows at them makes things even worse for them, because their own cavalry is not capable of engaging Poles by themselves, and cannot depend on support from their infantry.
In short, as long, as tercio can't hole up somewhere, they have no chances in engaging combined forces of Polish army. What is pretty damn historically accurate, because at that time there was no army that could best Poles in the open field. No matter of tactics or strategy, Poles mostly prevailed because of that. Combined forces and superior cavalry.
I have a different opinion to that. I played on the swedish side and lead the Pappenheimer Kürassiere. The first rounds have been very difficult due to the mounted archers of the polish. But as they changed their class to hussars and dragoons it became easier for us. Because on the second map the enemy didn´t have any pikemen, so it was very easy for us to avoid the enemy cavalry and to charge the enemy musketeers. After that we had the possibility to fall back behind our pikemen where we have been save. The polish didn´t have any pikemen and in this way it was very easy for us to charge them. If they would have had the use the same tactic like the swedish tercio with a mix of pikemen and musketeers they would have stand stronger against us.
However it´s always like stone-paper-scissors system: Musketeers beat pikemen, pikemen beat cavalry, cavalry beats musketeers. Only the perfect mix of all can make a faction win.
However it´s always like stone-paper-scissors system: Musketeers beat pikemen, pikemen beat cavalry, cavalry beats musketeers. Only the perfect mix of all can make a faction win.
Shamble
Master Knight
There were many pikemen, at least not less than the musketeers, and if I am not mistaken, even more.YourStepDad said:
It's because Polish cav and horses itself are way to strong, we(musketers) couldn't do anything against and got slaughtered. Even if we had more pikemen, doubt that we could win that. Amount and type(mounted archers, then hussars) of enemy cav decided that much more, than any setups
Next map was Kirchholm(starts near 12:00 on video)
Then I suppose I've gotten the wrong impression. I could really see no more than 2 pikemen at the same time before the very end.
But what Kuroi is saying makes a lot of sense, and in my opinion should stay that way. However, I do strongly think horse health needs a nerf.
Musketeers are simply very vulnerable and ineffective without proper protection, when pitted against mobile cavalry.
I still have a miny dream to see a small properly squared tercio with a double row of pikemen on every side, and musketeers inside. Now THAT would make for some difference, even if it would make horse archers even deadlier.
But what Kuroi is saying makes a lot of sense, and in my opinion should stay that way. However, I do strongly think horse health needs a nerf.
Musketeers are simply very vulnerable and ineffective without proper protection, when pitted against mobile cavalry.
I still have a miny dream to see a small properly squared tercio with a double row of pikemen on every side, and musketeers inside. Now THAT would make for some difference, even if it would make horse archers even deadlier.
YourStepDad said:
If you watch my video closely, you can see that when my squad was positioned on that small hill with ruins, there's a bunch of pikemen to the left from musketmen preparing to take on ChW hussars. Acknowledging that, I ordered RW musketeers to shoot them instead of enemy's shooters, to let ChW charge helpless enemy. As you can see, it was super effective. ;p
One more thing worth pointing out is the fact, that tercio is not mobile enough. They stand in one place and exchange fire with enemy, while their pikemen can only stand and wait. Thanks to that, enemy can easily circle around them, find weak points and attack whenever they please.
History lesson: Why did phalanx formation loose to roman legions? Training? Equipment? Numbers? No. It was tactics and versatility. Roman legions were far more mobile than Macedonian phalanx and could operate in various environment, while phalanx needed a flat field. We all know what happened to phalanx formation in the end.
Gustav - Teuton Knight
Sergeant at Arms
KuroiNekouPL said:
1st: I hope you read all the thread, and that you notice that is WESTERN WARFARE focused event... So now bows, in this time in all Western Europe armors were ''arrow-proof'' for most heavy inf and cav, so bow didnt have the strenght to penetrate a good armor (thats why only crossbow was used, but it was in its final years only used by some mercenaries). We trained to face Heavy Cav, as we were expecting hussars. No MOUNTED SKIRMISHERS, yeah you can use your puffers to shoot once-twice before charging as the Küirassiers were doing, you don't have to frontly charge like dumbasses, charge as you want, we dont want you to just make your horses have our pikes in their chests (if would be great tho hehe
), if you saw Küirassiers they were just making a circle arround enemy killing the infantrymen in the weakest parts of the formation.2nd: We don't want engineers, because grenades were not used that much in this era and it would make the gameplay silly. Same with cannons, we could perfectly use cannons and rape all your men (we are probably the best Spanish Art in all NW killing up to more than 30 men per cannon in every battle). But we don't want that. We resticted Pancernys and Light Cav BECAUSE YOU DIDN'T UNDERSTAND WHAT NO BOWS IS, WE TOLD YOU THAT AND YOU JUST CONTINUED USING THEM AND SCREAMING URUGUGAY IS GAY ETC. That started all racist insults, all thanks to a russian silly boy in the cav (I think bodobodo or somehting like that).
3rd: Thanks for coming
PS: If you don't like the event just Don't COME
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