A couple of map-related-suggestions

[Troubles]

Just a couple of suggestions for mappers and server owners.

1- Creating a map with 2 or 3 factions (I prefer 2).
Reason: It's a new type of fun. I'm not saying that the current maps (which, I think, hold 7 or 8 factions) are boring or something, they're quite fun too. But I'm saying that maybe we need a huge map with only 2 LARGE factions:
* Factions that cannot fall easily.
* Factions that need strategy and organization to work
* You really feel that the Lord is someone who rules over a big number of members, and not just a guy ruling 4-8 people.
* With only 2 castles in a map, there would be more space for creativity in (1) building the castle (2) more space for huge water fields, forests, .... (In fact, I can imagine 2 factions having a huge naval battle with more than 5 ships included )
It would be fun huh?

2- Please, when a new map starts, all the stockpiles (including commoner stockpiles) should have a zero count. I don't like it now where people would mine some gold for 30 minutes, go to their castles, gear up, and jump into actions, die, repeat the cycle until the great swords are out of stock. I would love it if people actually build their faction. Because right now, the only important thing is money. However, if my 2nd point gets implemented, money AND resources would be of great importance. Your 70k would do nothing without resources and engineers.

* The first point can wait, can be implemented later, or can be rejected. I don't care much about it. However, I do care about the 2nd one, which I think should be implemented in the next map (generally speaking, I'm not speaking about a specific server).
I hope I find my 2nd suggestion in the next week, when the server resets.

*Edit: Poll added to help server owners/mappers make a decision.

 

[Legolan]

I agree

 

[NOVICIUS]

What I am trying to achieve (with my map) is 2 major castles/settlemants to do Faction building. On top of that I will add smaller- norman like castles for individual play. It can happen that player do not like both major factions from some reason. It is great to have some other place for yourself. This small, maybe partially ruined castles will add a lot to general impresion of the map.

My favorite period of medieval is 10/11 century when most of big castles did not yet exist and there was no plates. Stone, wood and chainmail - this what I would like to see on my map.

 

[Troubles]

What I am trying to achieve (with my map) is 2 major castles/settlemants to do Faction building. On top of that I will add smaller- norman like castles for individual play. It can happen that player do not like both major factions from some reason.

Sure, although I'd prefer a rebellion instead joining other factions.

It is great to have some other place for yourself. This small, maybe partially ruined castles will add a lot to general impresion of the map.

Maybe smaller castles that have horrible defense can fit into my suggestion. They are useless on their own, but an alliance with them means that they will help you in defense on a smaller scale / report enemies / ...etc. Still I'd love to see 2 major castles.

What I am trying to achieve (with my map) is 2 major castles/settlemants to do Faction building.

I'd love to play that. I hope you finish your project soon, it'll be epic.

 

[CalenLoki]

Personally I like to have a lot of faction to choose - you join the one that you really like to cooperate (or want them to protect you), rather then the only available. With 7-8 factions there is nearly always at last one free slot, so you can create something new. But I have nothing against map having only 2-3 real castles, and all other factions being "homeless".


For my map I have plans to add 7 factions, but only 3 of them will heave access to good military units. So we'll have:

(Everyone have access to peasant, serf, militia, hunter, craftsman and healer)
-3 castles, with good military units (footman, archer,
-town with large income and medic + engineer
-port with large income, access to foreign equipment and engineer + crossbowman (nearly everything there will be overpriced)
-2 houses (with no real defence), but kind of hidden from land forces, with brigand + sailor

I hope it will create situation where there are only three large factions, who try to control town and port + two pirate/organized crime factions. And a lot of trade, both resources (located far away from sea), training (see above) and weapons (exotic from port, local from town - unless you hire eng)



Agree with 2. (except "poor" weapons and tools of course)

 

[Aldric]

Remember that mercenary mace can be used to create castle-less factions.

Also, i kinda support all of your project, just tell me.

Where do you put, the mercenary place ?

Where does peasants respawn ?
Is there is any "neutral" town.

I think the neutral town when it's too big, tend to divert player from faction and castle. And your concept of "good" and "bad" castle is a very good idea to change that.

 

[Troubles]

Personally I like to have a lot of faction to choose - you join the one that you really like to cooperate (or want them to protect you), rather then the only available. With 7-8 factions there is nearly always at last one free slot, so you can create something new. But I have nothing against map having only 2-3 real castles, and all other factions being "homeless".

Keep in mind that I'm not trying to force people to play the "2-castles" map. My suggestions would be implemented in probably 1 or 2 maps, among loads of other "8-factioned" maps. I'm asking for a change, that's all.

Agree with 2. (except "poor" weapons and tools of course)

I'd actually prefer if mine/wood axes have a zero count too. But I wouldn't mind if everyone wants a 50 count right from the beginning. It won't have a negative effect on what I'm seeking (gold miners not becoming full-plated-knights within 30 minutes of the game).

I think the neutral town when it's too big, tend to divert player from faction and castle. And your concept of "good" and "bad" castle is a very good idea to change that.

The point of my suggestion would be to have a huge war going on that requires strategy and organization to survive. You can imagine huge naval battles / crusades and jihads / field battles of infantry, archer, cavalry formations / ....etc. It would be a lot better if there were no towns. The castles would be huge enough to fill that role anyway.

 

[CalenLoki]

Remember that mercenary mace can be used to create castle-less factions.

Really? I thought that you need at last capturable flag to turn faction on

Where do you put, the mercenary place ?

In outlaw camps. Castle-less faction is potential treat from point of view of current landowners, so their illegal meeting place should be somehow hidden and unofficial.

Where does peasants respawn ?

In town (2 spawnpoints), in two villages (1 sp each) and in port (1 sp)

Is there is any "neutral" town.

town - yes, neutral - no. It can be closed, but it would hurt trade (and thus owner's treasury)

I think the neutral town when it's too big, tend to divert player from faction and castle. And your concept of "good" and "bad" castle is a very good idea to change that.

Generally anything that is "neutral" (open enough that you don't need to be in faction to enter) encourage remaining neutral. IMO instead of trying to force players into faction, we need to make maps that make "neutral players" works for faction even without joining it. So places easy to tax (gates/choke points at towns, mines and other places where you can earn money), all props linked to faction chest, roads blocked by castles (or just choke points located by the castle walls), ect.

+IMO server rules that allow treating unaligned peasants like **** would encourage them to join factions, but that's not point of that discussion

Personally I like to have a lot of faction to choose - you join the one that you really like to cooperate (or want them to protect you), rather then the only available. With 7-8 factions there is nearly always at last one free slot, so you can create something new. But I have nothing against map having only 2-3 real castles, and all other factions being "homeless".

Keep in mind that I'm not trying to force people to play the "2-castles" map. My suggestions would be implemented in probably 1 or 2 maps, among loads of other "8-factioned" maps. I'm asking for a change, that's all.

I know. But I imagined how would it work, and I trust my imagination I have noting against testing new stuff, but IMO it won't work

Agree with 2. (except "poor" weapons and tools of course)

I'd actually prefer if mine/wood axes have a zero count too. But I wouldn't mind if everyone wants a 50 count right from the beginning. It won't have a negative effect on what I'm seeking (gold miners not becoming full-plated-knights within 30 minutes of the game).

After some thoughts, we have hatchet and small mining pick as starting equipment, so you're right. But I'm not sure about eng hammer - can you make it without already owning eng hammer? But it can be done by making buy prop with 1000% price 

 

[Troubles]

Remember that mercenary mace can be used to create castle-less factions.

Really? I thought that you need at last capturable flag to turn faction on

You do not need the mercenary class to have a faction, since it's only a "class". Plus, even if it's a must, you can just put it somewhere unreachable by the players.
But, if you do that, people who lost their castles might never find a way to retrieve it back.

I'd actually prefer if mine/wood axes have a zero count too. But I wouldn't mind if everyone wants a 50 count right from the beginning. It won't have a negative effect on what I'm seeking (gold miners not becoming full-plated-knights within 30 minutes of the game).

After some thoughts, we have hatchet and small mining pick as starting equipment, so you're right. But I'm not sure about eng hammer - can you make it without already owning eng hammer? But it can be done by making buy prop with 1000% price 

Crafting does not require hammers, only repairing does.

 

[NOVICIUS]

Generally anything that is "neutral" (open enough that you don't need to be in faction to enter) encourage remaining neutral. IMO instead of trying to force players into faction, we need to make maps that make "neutral players" works for faction even without joining it. So places easy to tax (gates/choke points at towns, mines and other places where you can earn money), all props linked to faction chest, roads blocked by castles (or just choke points located by the castle walls), ect.

+IMO server rules that allow treating unaligned peasants like **** would encourage them to join factions, but that's not point of that discussion

Love it

BTW.I max. lower prices of all tools and give it 50 in stock for the start. On other side no weapons at all in the beginning.

I have also lower cost of training for commoners (civilians in my map) and I will rise cost of training for soldiers (faction members).
It has effect on castle chest (if I well understand) as 50% of training cost for faction goes to it. In commoner case it is irrelevant.

I am still not sure if serfs,eng and doc should be members of faction. On one side it gives you knowledge who is with you and who not. On the other commoners should be part of faction "stock". As long they do their job and can be exploited it does not matter were they belong. It makes joining faction more importand than it is now.

 

[Serann]

I am not so sure about point 2.

Sure our golddiggers wouldn't have the best weapons, but they would still get the best armor

And that makes them even more invincible if good weapons are rare, that is to say: weapons that can pierce through black armor.

 

[Troubles]

I am still not sure if serfs,eng and doc should be members of faction. On one side it gives you knowledge who is with you and who not. On the other commoners should be part of faction "stock". As long they do their job and can be exploited it does not matter were they belong. It makes joining faction more importand than it is now.

Serfs  should be in the faction in my opinion. I mean: they are normally independent, but most lords would tax them and force them to work for the nobles' interests, making them technically a part of the faction.
Engineers: Can go either way, I guess.
Doctors can fit into any category, from serfs to noble-ones. They usually are just people who inherited some medical knowledge from their ancestors, and kept using them.

Sure our golddiggers wouldn't have the best weapons, but they would still get the best armor

And that makes them even more invincible if good weapons are rare, that is to say: weapons that can pierce through black armor.

Well, it's a step towards making this mod better, in my opinion. It will be most effective when armor/horses are craftable/breedable
* Everyone can have the best weapons. They just have to work for it, and not just find the weapons.

 

[CalenLoki]

I'd actually prefer if mine/wood axes have a zero count too. But I wouldn't mind if everyone wants a 50 count right from the beginning. It won't have a negative effect on what I'm seeking (gold miners not becoming full-plated-knights within 30 minutes of the game).

After some thoughts, we have hatchet and small mining pick as starting equipment, so you're right. But I'm not sure about eng hammer - can you make it without already owning eng hammer? But it can be done by making buy prop with 1000% price 

Crafting does not require hammers, only repairing does.

crap... not playing mod for a long time ends with faux pas like this...

 

[martyrAD]

so ive read whats been said already and i agree to some point, the problem with most maps is "commoner" town is always the center of attention. if you take away that concept people will have to flock to the castles and outer small villages, so overall it comes down to the map designers goals, i also be leave taverns/inns should generally be located outside the castle walls, as castles where more or less forts, not cities. also have unconquerable forts and towers that have light defenses would add to the strategy of it all

 

[Splintert]

Weapon stocks should start out in a very limited quantity, in my opinion. This is to prevent a completely dead state of the server at the beginning of a round since no one wants to engineer, but prevent the ability to arm a good military.

 

[NOVICIUS]

On other hand it can stimulate players to some sort of cooperation in early stages: serf can give away some iron/wood to eng and ask him to make some weapons for later when serf would become soldier. I do not know how long it would last but it is worth to try it.

 

[Troubles]

Weapon stocks should start out in a very limited quantity, in my opinion. This is to prevent a completely dead state of the server at the beginning of a round since no one wants to engineer, but prevent the ability to arm a good military.

Well, the current way does not "prevent the ability to arm a good military". Plus, people stopped becoming engineers, at least in Eu. From my experience in other servers, this won't cause a "dead state" at the begining. Instead, it will make the whole map a big army of serfs and a few engineers from the beginning, trying to "build" the faction.
One more point: in the current way, chests, ships, and doors are rarely at full hp. Reason: there are no engineers from the first place. When I used to play in servers with 0 count in everythin (like IronLegion), each faction would have busy armories, because 2-3 engineers are working there while a big army of people is mining/woodcutting. The doors/chests/ships were always on full hp since the engineers were available and the lords were willing to pay.
Now, the engineer class is useless. People never try to recruit an engineer except in rare occasions in sieges.

On other hand it can stimulate players to some sort of cooperation in early stages: serf can give away some iron/wood to eng and ask him to make some weapons for later when serf would become soldier.

 

[martyrAD]

i still say the whole commoner town thing needs to disappear, as it doesnt promote leaving town. and makes things rather boring.

 

[Troubles]

i still say the whole commoner town thing needs to disappear, as it doesnt promote leaving town. and makes things rather boring.

My suggestion, if implemented, will focus on a huge war scale RP, not the peaceful commoner town RP. So yes that's true, huge towns should disappear in any map that adopts this idea.

 

[martyrAD]

well they just become the focus point for activity, and id rather have a more rural map, rvers, streams, small castles, with out lying villages, nothing super fancy.