Okay I will try not to use sarcasm anymore,
noted.
Then do not speak on behalf of Armenia or the Armenians.
I am not? I am speaking solely for myself first and foremost, while everything else are assumptions, simple because of its nature.
Yes, it is hateful. Your inability to grasp that doesn't change it. When you live your life thinking Armenians are out to get you or that they are terrible people etc, that is hatefulness. Hatefulness taught to you. And yet you whinge that you think people here are being hateful towards Turks. The hypocritical nonsense you spout without even realizing it is insane.
Whatever you want to call it. Call it hateful then. If I end up hating most Armenians, obviously depending on their mindset of hating good Turks, so be it. Perhaps I am wrong to think that most Armenians are out to get me. Publicly, their image in my eyes ain't great and that is not because I watch Turkish news. And if you people would hate Turks for whatever reason, so be it. I am sure you have your reasons, be it right or wrong.
Now that we established that I am a hateful individual, I would like to share a scenario. As a definied hateful person, the first thing that would happen if I were to understand that someone is Armenian,... you guessed it, continued interaction with the person as if they were not Armenian. Frankly, it does not matter where they are from. I simply hate those who would deserve my hate. And if I am catious because of that, am I to be judged? It is not hypocritical at all. I am to check my sources. You should check your sources. We should know whether our informations are correct or not, even from most trusted sources. I know that there are ****ty humans everywhere. If you think there are more ****ty humans in Turkey,
you might not be wrong. But as a German Turk, I know that Western media is also full of bull****, propaganda that you are not aware of. There is not a single thing Turkey is doing right and in Europe's interest, ever, according to the West. So if someone were to be hateful towards Turks, right or wrong, no matter... I know where it comes from.
But you did say that's what they were all thinking about. You have continued to classify all Armenians under your perception of them, a perception granted to you by your country. You even now refuse to completely quit the notion of "all Armenians".
I will try not using "all" then but "to me it seems most" on this topic. Better?
Of course we are interested in it. The thread is about the Armenian genocide committed by Turkey. The discussion of it does not, in any way, indicate we feel poorly of all Turks. The fact that you think it does is insane. I can acknowledge the horrific deeds of my country without hating all of my countrymen. And it has been stated "why", because the lack of doing so breeds the same environment in which it originally happened. If Turkey admits to it, they admit that it happened and that it was wrong, putting it into the general population's head that it was calculated and that it was wrong. But Turkey doesn't want to do that, because the government understands it was wrong but they do not care because they perceive Armenians (and Bulgarians, and Kurds etc etc) as an "enemy".
I do hope that you do not feel poorly of all Turks. The fact that I believe that you could is not insane.
That you can acknowledge horrific deeds of your country is a great thing, no doubt. I can too. I simply do not agree on this topic, on the Armenian genocide, with you. That should not be then "insane", "ridiculous" or any other shaky adjective.
We could definitely use that some start understanding that killing and massacring "enemies" is wrong, no doubt.
That doesn't mean Turkey should be somewhat politically forced to admit something that might not have happened. Not under the current circumstances. I would even support it being acknowledge if it didn't actually happen just for the sake of sending a message, even if everyone were lying about it. But not like this, under the current geopolitical conditions.
And what the hell does weaponry matter in this discussion? You keep trying to deflect away from the genocide with these asinine imaginations about Armenia and it makes absolutely no sense. Whether or not Russia gave them weapons or sold them weapons (whatever you are trying to get at) doesn't mean the Armenian genocide didn't happen or that Turkey's government is responsible for it.
Weaponry matters a lot. Weaponry allows for more violence. And solving "the Armenian genocide" simply requires to analyze everything history and geopolitics have to offer. I do not keep trying to deflect anything, but you seem to deflect away from it. And using adjectives like "asinine" to everything you do not like me saying is not helping. Armenia is Russia's pawn, besides having other patrons. Those same patrons that are not very Turkey's friends. That just does not help to have a good enviroment to talk
If you can acknowledge that some decisions can be wrong, acknowledge that the genocide happened and that Turkey was responsible for it.
Just a big fat
No. Why don't you rather acknowledge that it might have happened or it might not have happened?
It has nothing to do with Turkey? Yes it does. The Ottoman Empire ordered it. If you mean modern day Turkey, again, yes it does because they refuse to admit that it happened and grant the Armenians the acknowledgement of humanity and existence. Imagine if the U.S committed genocide against Turks and we were presenting this ****e argument to you. Would you accept that because we "have nothing to gain from saying it" we shouldn't? No need to answer. I know you would not, because it would be wrong and it would induce further bigotry against people. You know that, but you are so brainwashed by your nationalist pride you can't see it.
So we are somewhat on present-day Earth? Okay. As far as I can see, "humanity and existence" seems to be everyone's human right besides Turks. I do not see Armenians as subhumanoids. And as far as I am concerned, they do not need my acknowledgement of the Armenian genocide to be humans and have a right to existence. There is no ill-will at all towards Armenia.
But Turks are brainwashed and you are not.
noted
And most countries teach a very basic history for other countries. No one is taught an extensive history on foreign countries, as far as I'm aware. What they should learn as a basis though is when another country does something so monumentally monstrous everyone needs to know about it. For example the Armenian genocide, the Greek genocide, Assyrian genocide, the Holocaust, and all world wars.
Armenian genocide, the Greek genocide, Assyrian genocide blablabla
Come on, are you even trying?
Germany not educating its people on all of the "wonderous things" of Turkey doesn't mean it's propaganda against Turkey. Good lord! ?
I will try not to use sarcasm anymore.
This thread in short:
Bunch of non-Turks that have been brainwashed by their respective countries accuse Turks of being their own definiton of nationalist and also brainwashed after not acknowledging the Armenian genocide. Great discussion. You are right and Turks are wrong, got it. Any other way is simply not possible I guess.
Not now, but back in the 60s when historians were looking into both, the hundreds of high ranking Nazis that the allied powers failed to execute then went around spreading myths about the clean Wehrmacht which persist to this day amongst the public. Your average person has no idea that a lot of what they know about the holocaust is directly from HIAG, which was an organisation of SS officers bent on maintaining their image.
At the same time there were discussions about the Holomodor in the west which concluded that it was a deliberate attempt by the politburo to kill millions of Ukrainians. But like most healthy discussions, this was completely separate from the holocaust or nazi war crimes in eastern europe. Only someone who feels personally attacked by the accusations of the Holomodor (i.e. a Soviet Nationalist or a tankie) would feel the need to connect the two, or draw attention to the other and say "aHA! you aren't talking about X, are you???"
If X has to do with the Holomodor somehow, doesn't matter how small the correlation is... I would like to hear that.
And after all, I do feel personally attacked. If you do not for your country or nation or people or whatever, that is your business.
If one starts talking about a Greek genocide but not about a Turkish genocide, that is simply bad faith.
Our target is not you or your sense of self, but the government of Turkey. If you feel like that has anything to do with "your turkish ancestors" then that is on you.
That is a lie. I do not support the current government. If the next is the one I have voted for, I will. But the politics of Turkey will hardly change, no matter who gets chosen. And in democracies, usually people choose the government.
If it has nothing to do with Turkish ancestors, which might be part of ones sense of self, as could be the government, then I guess we can move on. (To be honest, I feel like you either meant more or I did not understand what you meant at all. If you care to explain, I'd try again)
Have you ever thought that maybe, just maybe, the fact that you do not know a single Armenian leaves you vulnerable to others giving you a mental picture of them that doesn't necessarily match the truth? It is very difficult to hate an entire category of people when you have even one or two friends who belong to that group.
Yes indeed. But I do not know Pashinyan, Macron or Putin personally, what do I do now?
It is actually very easy to hate an entire category of people when the entire category of people seems to strive for something hateful. As I do not know anyone like that personally, I can only assume how many people exist in that category while how many there really are.
People are people. There's not any ethnicity or nationality that makes you inherently good or bad.
Inherently, never. That we can agree on.
en.wikipedia.org
