"Less numbers showing up in the fight, and always on MY side.."

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SCGavin

SCGavin

Baron
Old Guard
Misguided said:
1.  While that may be perfectly true, the whole "Less numbers showing up in the fight, and always on MY side.." bit is a known bug from Native.  Pain in the ass.
Click to expand...

I just rip this quote out of context, as this is the first relevant entry in the search for the "Less numbers showing up in the fight, and always on MY side.." bit (not my search query, though :wink:). Needed it as an introduction.

I had an idea while playing that this problem may be because of the same reason lords can't field more then a certain number of different troops. The player can't have more than 32 (I think) kinds of units in his party and neither can lords.

So I thought that maybe the units in battle can't be more than 32 different kinds of units, either. So if you have only Sarleon units and fight together with only Sarleon lords, you might be able to actually field all fit troops you and your Sarleon allies have. When you have Pendor troops and join a battle with Sarleon, Ravenstern, Empire and D'shar parties against Fierdsvain parties, the number of listed fit units would then be much lower than it really is (if my assumption is right), as the number of different unit kinds would be much higher than 32 (You'd have units from Recruit to Knight and from all factions).

I don't know if that had already been thought about in for example the place where the bug from Native has been discussed that Misguided referred to, but I thought I'd just post it in a new thread, to be sure.

Edit: I just started a new character and had 32 units with maybe 16 different unit kinds. I joined the war-party from the Fierdsvain in a battle against the D'shar. The Fierdsvainers of course had roughly the same kinds of units. In the battle we had something like seven hundred units, so that would support the theory that the numbers shown before the battle depend on the 32-troop-limit.

Edit 2: I just came upon a battle, where one of the fighting lords was not shown. I found that odd and checked the number off different troops. And, wonder oh wonder, the number I counted was 32. It is a battle between one Fierdsvain lord and three hostile lords. Last lord to join the battle was Bionr Legatus, who isn't shown in the image (-> spoiler). I guess several troops are also excluded. Interesting is that he fought in the battle when I joined it, as did some of my units, which makes me wonder, how the system decides who gets to fight and who doesn't.

mb29.jpg

See also: Thread in "The Apothecary"
 
That would make sense. I believe I encountered that problem today. I ran into the devourer army of more than 800 heretic troops in it. I was a bit surprised when the fight started and I only had 8 of my Knights with me. Needless to say, I got squished. Sure, my army was only about 60 but still, I'm sure It would have been fun :smile: Is that a recurring bug? I've been trying to get away from those type of armies since that and I believe it's one way to get the gems. Kinda makes it impossible.
 
Glyrion said:
That would make sense. I believe I encountered that problem today. I ran into the devourer army of more than 800 heretic troops in it. I was a bit surprised when the fight started and I only had 8 of my Knights with me. Needless to say, I got squished. Sure, my army was only about 60 but still, I'm sure It would have been fun :smile: Is that a recurring bug? I've been trying to get away from those type of armies since that and I believe it's one way to get the gems. Kinda makes it impossible.
Click to expand...

I think that's the normal Mount and Blade behaviour and no bug, though it bothers me time and again, too. What I mean is, when you (100 fit troops) come upon for example a battle between Eygrim the Devourer (who has 800 fit troops) and say several Fierdsvain lords (with 700 fit troops). In the battle screen it would not read 800 against 800 fit troops, but e.g. Eygrim = 800 fit troops; you = 120 fit troops. That sucks. Because you do actually have the fit troops to beat him (though beating Eygrim might still require more than 800 troops).

PS: Eygrim the Devourer has no gem for you, so you can let enemy lords defeat him. Only spawned heroes with a "100%" (or any other number between 1 and 100 per cent :wink:) behind their name, can be taken prisoner and offer you money, a gem and the option to return home and never to come back. You can also kill them.
 
I guess the logic is that since the game can't have 900 combatants on the field at once, it just does fractions 800/60=400/30=200/15=etc. until it hits the right battle size then it accounts for tactics skill *not worth much imo, but still overlooked in this kind of thread*.
 
Hmm,its not like that,I assure you,it doesn't reduce the enemy size.
Like you go in with 100 ready men into a fight against 100 ready men,and it shows as if you have 70 ready men to deploy while the opponent still has max.
Annoying,HELL.

~Ãbyss
 
I've obviously never been able to count all the friendlies, but my impression has always been that regardless of the display error, about the right number of them eventually show up to the actual fight.
 
Ãbyss said:
Hmm,its not like that,I assure you,it doesn't reduce the enemy size.
Like you go in with 100 ready men into a fight against 100 ready men,and it shows as if you have 70 ready men to deploy while the opponent still has max.
Annoying,HELL.

~Ãbyss
Click to expand...
Well I use the native battle sizer, not the addon and if I go to fight an equal sized enemy the game says we both start with 40 men each, with reinforcement waves of 26 I think, I've never seen the particular instance of an equal size enemy having significantly more troops.
 
Pode said:
I've obviously never been able to count all the friendlies, but my impression has always been that regardless of the display error, about the right number of them eventually show up to the actual fight.
Click to expand...
I've got to disagree with you on this Pode, based on a scenario I played out last night:

The Feirdsvain about 1500 strong, led by Koniger Valdis were fighting for Mobray Castle, currently held by the D'Shar. When they had whittled the defenders down to about 20, I kited the 3 seers' army, 500 strong, to the castle and began circling it, keeping the seers' army more or less centered on the castle itself. As it happens, Valdis' party broke away from the castle fighting with about 4 defenders remaining and was immediately engaged by the seers. Shortly after, Valdis' party was helped by King Ulric and Baron Charles. Then the castle fell and all the Feirdsvain joined the fight. At this point I decided to join the fight with my 86 strong party, taking a screenshot that revealed the allies had 1631 able troops, not including my own 86, and the seers had 494. Now, by rights we should have outnumbered the seers by ~3.5:1. But when I joined the fight the dialog said the battle was comprised of 449 allied and 494 enemy troops. Upon entering the battlemap, I immediately opened the troop interface to get the numbers in battle; 43 allies and 37 enemies were deployed. I attribute our small superiority to Sir Roland's 6 in tactics.

I think it's clear from this example that this bug effects troop deployment as well as renown. I'll also comment that I've personally never seen this in a native game, but then I tend to stick with only a few specific unit types. This would seem to support SCGavin's OP that this is somehow related to the variety of troops engaged in the battle. Assuming this is the case, I have to wonder if the means by which the troop strength is counted could be altered; e.g. instead of directly counting the first 32 troop types, add the totals of each party regardless of the their composition, then deploy the proper number of troops using the first 32 slots. Another interesting note to my battle scenario is that even though we lost a considerable number of troops in each skirmish, our numbers displayed in each successive skirmish dialog remained fairly consistent; IIRC we fielded 398 troops vs. the enemies 30 in the final skirmish.

Honestly, I think SCGavin has nailed this issue at it's source. Now we just need to see if it's with our grasp (not hard-coded) to make it right.

Nice catch SC! :grin:

FritZ
 
FritZ_FretZ said:
The Feirdsvain about 1500 strong, led by Koniger Valdis were fighting for Mobray Castle, currently held by the D'Shar. When they had whittled the defenders down to about 20, I kited the 3 seers' army, 500 strong, to the castle and began circling it, keeping the seers' army more or less centered on the castle itself. As it happens, Valdis' party broke away from the castle fighting with about 4 defenders remaining and was immediately engaged by the seers. Shortly after, Valdis' party was helped by King Ulric and Baron Charles. Then the castle fell and all the Feirdsvain joined the fight. At this point I decided to join the fight with my 86 strong party, taking a screenshot that revealed the allies had 1631 able troops, not including my own 86, and the seers had 494. Now, by rights we should have outnumbered the seers by ~3.5:1. But when I joined the fight the dialog said the battle was comprised of 449 allied and 494 enemy troops. Upon entering the battlemap, I immediately opened the troop interface to get the numbers in battle; 43 allies and 37 enemies were deployed. I attribute our small superiority to Sir Roland's 6 in tactics.
Click to expand...
Is the number you are referencing (the 1631 and 494 in your screenshot) what was indicated as overall numbers? The battle summary that initially appears includes all wounded in the numbers. Only after you are close enough to see party composition (which troops are included) can you tell how many of the total are actually able to fight.  In the case you reference, that makes since, as the Fierdsvain had all just come out of a seige battle.
 
As he said, were it total numbers or healthy numbers of soldiers?

Furthermore, heavy cavalry counts more than a footpad thus if you field more cav, you get less units, the enemy an advantage.
 
psfalk said:
FritZ_FretZ said:
The Feirdsvain about 1500 strong, led by Koniger Valdis were fighting for Mobray Castle, currently held by the D'Shar. When they had whittled the defenders down to about 20, I kited the 3 seers' army, 500 strong, to the castle and began circling it, keeping the seers' army more or less centered on the castle itself. As it happens, Valdis' party broke away from the castle fighting with about 4 defenders remaining and was immediately engaged by the seers. Shortly after, Valdis' party was helped by King Ulric and Baron Charles. Then the castle fell and all the Feirdsvain joined the fight. At this point I decided to join the fight with my 86 strong party, taking a screenshot that revealed the allies had 1631 able troops, not including my own 86, and the seers had 494. Now, by rights we should have outnumbered the seers by ~3.5:1. But when I joined the fight the dialog said the battle was comprised of 449 allied and 494 enemy troops. Upon entering the battlemap, I immediately opened the troop interface to get the numbers in battle; 43 allies and 37 enemies were deployed. I attribute our small superiority to Sir Roland's 6 in tactics.
Click to expand...
Is the number you are referencing (the 1631 and 494 in your screenshot) what was indicated as overall numbers? The battle summary that initially appears includes all wounded in the numbers. Only after you are close enough to see party composition (which troops are included) can you tell how many of the total are actually able to fight.  In the case you reference, that makes since, as the Fierdsvain had all just come out of a seige battle.
Click to expand...
You know, I knew if I didn't explicitly state that... I used a calculator to add up the fit troops in each party... I'd have someone ask this  :neutral:

FritZ
 
noosers said:
...snip

Furthermore, heavy cavalry counts more than a footpad thus if you field more cav, you get less units, the enemy an advantage.
Click to expand...
That's a new one on me noosers, are you sure that's native behavior and not something to do with an add-on, e.g. battlesizer :?:

In my experience in native, I've found troops are deployed on a numeric basis only, regardless of quality  :???:

100 Swadian Knights vs. 100 Rodok ground fodder equals 40 troops for each side...

FritZ
 
Na, I think I read somewhere that mounted troops count more than booted ones. One would need to test it out, but I prone to believe it, I´m usually running around with heavy cav only parties and I get the feeling I got significant less troops on the battlefield than the enemy according to the numbers.

That may be total bull**** though.
 
noosers said:
Na, I think I read somewhere that mounted troops count more than booted ones. One would need to test it out, but I prone to believe it, I´m usually running around with heavy cav only parties and I get the feeling I got significant less troops on the battlefield than the enemy according to the numbers.

That may be total bull**** though.
Click to expand...

Hmmm... I field mostly cavalry units, so that could be a possible explanation, too.



For those, who did not come upon this problem, yet:

I'll try to make a screenshot, when I come upon such a battle again.

Edit: Screenshot

I found a nice battle, in which I got 400 units less then I should have had.

mandbwrongnumbers.png
 
Hmm I guess I've never really noticed that since usually when I come upon that situation I wait for one side of the other to win, then cherry pick off any parties with elite prisoners, mwhahaha.
 
Dan_Grr said:
Yeah, that is ****ed up. Happened to me plenty of times.
Click to expand...
me too
thought i just have to accept this and get used to it.
don't know whether it's a Native bug or not, but in many native games and many many other mods i ever player, never had this problem before.
on the bright side, the troop count disadvantage does help boost your renown. :wink:

and it seems SCGavin does have  a point here that the 32 troop type cap might be the reason, since in Native and most other mods we don't have so many kinds of troop types.

and i think in such kind of battle, if you manage to survive several rounds of skirmish, and your troops do suffer a considerable amount of loss, more of your soldiers will show up in the battlefield eventually. but i still need some confirmation on this.
 
FritZ_FretZ said:
Pode said:
I've obviously never been able to count all the friendlies, but my impression has always been that regardless of the display error, about the right number of them eventually show up to the actual fight.
Click to expand...
I've got to disagree with you on this Pode, based on a scenario I played out last night:

The Feirdsvain about 1500 strong, led by Koniger Valdis were fighting for Mobray Castle, currently held by the D'Shar. When they had whittled the defenders down to about 20, I kited the 3 seers' army, 500 strong, to the castle and began circling it, keeping the seers' army more or less centered on the castle itself. As it happens, Valdis' party broke away from the castle fighting with about 4 defenders remaining and was immediately engaged by the seers. Shortly after, Valdis' party was helped by King Ulric and Baron Charles. Then the castle fell and all the Feirdsvain joined the fight. At this point I decided to join the fight with my 86 strong party, taking a screenshot that revealed the allies had 1631 able troops, not including my own 86, and the seers had 494. Now, by rights we should have outnumbered the seers by ~3.5:1. But when I joined the fight the dialog said the battle was comprised of 449 allied and 494 enemy troops. Upon entering the battlemap, I immediately opened the troop interface to get the numbers in battle; 43 allies and 37 enemies were deployed. I attribute our small superiority to Sir Roland's 6 in tactics.

I think it's clear from this example that this bug effects troop deployment as well as renown. I'll also comment that I've personally never seen this in a native game, but then I tend to stick with only a few specific unit types. This would seem to support SCGavin's OP that this is somehow related to the variety of troops engaged in the battle. Assuming this is the case, I have to wonder if the means by which the troop strength is counted could be altered; e.g. instead of directly counting the first 32 troop types, add the totals of each party regardless of the their composition, then deploy the proper number of troops using the first 32 slots. Another interesting note to my battle scenario is that even though we lost a considerable number of troops in each skirmish, our numbers displayed in each successive skirmish dialog remained fairly consistent; IIRC we fielded 398 troops vs. the enemies 30 in the final skirmish.

Honestly, I think SCGavin has nailed this issue at it's source. Now we just need to see if it's with our grasp (not hard-coded) to make it right.

Nice catch SC! :grin:

FritZ
Click to expand...

Very interesting.  We touched nothing in the available code dealing with battles at all.  I do not even remember seeing any routines that deal with this, But I was not explicitly looking for it either.  My philosophy to this point has been to avoid the battle mechanics as that likely will change with warband.  So my guess is that this is some sort of native issue.

Warband may or may not address this.. if it does, great.  If it does not, then as FritZ points out, then we will see if it is addressable at all, and if it is, we will delve into it.

Best,

Saxondragon
 
saxondragon said:
Very interesting.  We touched nothing in the available code dealing with battles at all.  I do not even remember seeing any routines that deal with this, But I was not explicitly looking for it either.  My philosophy to this point has been to avoid the battle mechanics as that likely will change with warband.  So my guess is that this is some sort of native issue.
Click to expand...
Absolutely native SD. The reason PoP seems to magnify the issue is purely due to the vastly increased number of unique unit types. As it's not uncommon for lord parties that have engaged in several battles and recruited rescued prisoners to each be at or near their own 32 slot limit, combining these parties could well yield in excess of 60+ unique unit types. Add this to the lords, who themselves each take a slot, now reduce the available troops for battle to the first 32 troop types and the picture of incorrect numbers become clear.

Warband may or may not address this.. if it does, great.  If it does not, then as FritZ points out, then we will see if it is addressable at all, and if it is, we will delve into it.

Best,

Saxondragon
Click to expand...
I think the question at hand is "Will Warband address the 32 slot troop limit?" For an expansion due out in a couple of months, there sure doesn't appear to be much info out on it  :sad:

FritZ

 
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