Gamescom - Combat?? - Full Thoughts.

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Schiester said:
Rallix said:
Schiester said:
Tldr please.
Stop whining about how **** the game is and make suggestions about how to improve it, if it's so bad.
Clearly you have a very deep understanding of the combat to be such a vocal critic.
I have made mentions of improvement in other threads. Please don't be simple minded.
Firstly you are obviously very new.
Schiester said:
For some reason when I play MP in this game armour has no effect. For instance I was playing DM on arena and I equipped chainmail, a flat top steel helmet, and leather gloves. I had a shield and arming sword. I was using swadian.I came across a nearly naked player with a bastard sword and it took 3 hits to kill him. Whereas I've had times where I've been slashed twice with a  bastard sword (while wearing mail) and died. It just seems like armour doesnt matter because it appears I die in the same amount of blows that someone wearing a simple gambesson would. Is this a lag issue or the way the game was intended to be?
The fact that you say things like "It took three hits to kill an unarmoured guy and 2 hits to kill me in mail with the same weapon" and are confused by this suggests you lack much knowledge at all about the math of the game, which also suggests you have little experience. You made this post only a couple weeks ago.
You do not know how the combat even works. Your opinion about it being good or bad is therefore quite uninformed compared to a more experienced player.

But let's move on to your suggestions.
Ten things I would like to see in Bannerlord relating to combat, note this is what I personally want to see.
1. Add weapon blunting. If the weapon impacts shields or armor (plate,chain) it should dull over time and require you to sharpen it. Thus the need for blacksmiths
2. Chance of sword breaking if striking hard materials (walls,chain,plate)
3. Chance to do Bleed damage over time if impacted while wearing minimal clothing (weaker armor, not plate, thick cloth, or chain)
4. Shield bashing
5. Thinner pointed weapons have a higher chance ( longswords, rapiers) than broader points (arming swords, sabres) to pierce armor
6. Allow players to use off-hand daggers to parry more effectively
7. Smaller shields, like bucklers
8. Hunting system, being able to actually use hunting bows and crossbows for their intended purposes  :grin:
9. Bandits have clans that war with one another, you can be apart of a bandit group or lead a bandit army
10. Lances aren't laser like, add actual weight and impact to them, for instance making it actually throw someone off the horse instead of them just bending backwards and slowly falling over
1: You do not need a blacksmith to do something like sharpen a blade, at least, not for the sharpness required of a normal sword. That can be achieved and maintained by any soldier. Keep in mind, the sharper a blade is, the easier it is to damage the edge. Blacksmiths will be more useful in bannerlord because you can have custom weapons now.

2: A normal sword does not break easily. It would require a great deal of force or previous damage to make a sword break, assuming the steel isn't made too hard. A good sword will also resist permanent bends better than a bad sword. Hitting a man in maille or plate will not damage your weapon significantly at all, again assuming you do not have a lemon made of improper iron. Another question you need to ask is what purpose adding such a mechanic has besides adding an annoyance to the player's list of problems.

3: Chance to do? One thing hated almost universally, like tripping in Super Smash Bros, is adding random chances for bad things to happen. There should be definite specific circumstance at which bleeding always happens, or not at all. This should serve a gsameplay purpose other than realism imo. Just imagine you start losing health at a steady rate in warband multiplayer any time you take a blood drawing wound. Do you want that?

4: Every time I've seen shieldbashing implemented it has been either game-breaking or unimportant. The kick mechanic is a circumstantial and skill based method of breaking an attacker's block. It can be countered and prevented. This makes it fair, and also take up the slack any shieldbashing mechanic would add. In cRPG shieldbash knocks your opponent far back, and creates an opening for a team mate, but does not allow you to hit through a block by itself, while being easier to hit with than a kick. This is also balanced. Just saying Shield Bashing should be added without a real need or purpose would be a bad decision.

5: This would have to depend on the armour. Here's a detailed post about this sort of thing I made in the historical discussion board. http://forums.taleworlds.com/index.php/topic,51090.msg7992996.html#msg7992996/topic,51090.msg7992996.html#msg7992996

6: The devil is in the details.

7: This has been done in mods. It does not serve much purpose in native. cRPG probably did this best.

8: I'm not very personally interested in hunting in a game about war. If this is to be done, there are hunting games which do this much better than mods that have been made for warband which should be learned from. Such a thing as this should be ignored in development until more important things are dealt with.

9: This has been much requested in the past, and for good reason. It would be an interesting way to play. Gangs and criminals are really much like little states and soldiers. They compete with the government for taxes and incomes, contesting a monopoly of force, often in very destructive ways.

10: Are you proposing that couching or thrusting an opponent with a lance should knock you off your horse? Again, this would require context. You can't just dismount a horseman every time he touches a footman with a speartip.
 
Rallix said:
10: Are you proposing that couching or thrusting an opponent with a lance should knock you off your horse? Again, this would require context. You can't just dismount a horseman every time he touches a footman with a speartip.

I think he meant that the victim of the lance should be thrown from their horse, not the lancer.
 
DanAngleland said:
Rallix said:
10: Are you proposing that couching or thrusting an opponent with a lance should knock you off your horse? Again, this would require context. You can't just dismount a horseman every time he touches a footman with a speartip.

I think he meant that the victim of the lance should be thrown from their horse, not the lancer.

Yes, but to be more specific, he meant the death animation of a rider.

And I agree with Rallix. A game doesn't need random features that would be a nuisance for a player. On Viking Conquest, I immediately disabled stamina, gear effects, wounds and bleeding because those things were really annoying.
 
Rallix said:
Stop whining about how **** the game is and make suggestions about how to improve it, if it's so bad.
How many times there was suggestions to improve combat over the years, dozens, hundreds ? Did TW acknowledged them ? No, damn it, without any word they just shoved old combat system into new game, so why the hell we should bother. TW must see their mistakes first. Its worst attitude when some devs think -"fanboys will eat it in any state and will ask for more".
 
You have two options as a game developer:

1. Make a better version of the first game you made, to appeal to your current fan base and possibly bring more people into that fan base through marketing and exposure from your current fan base.

2. Make a different version of the first game you made, that does not appeal to your current fan base, but you hope will appeal to more people than the other option would have.

Which do you think is more reasonable?
 
Partizan_Rusi said:
Rallix said:
Stop whining about how **** the game is and make suggestions about how to improve it, if it's so bad.
How many times there was suggestions to improve combat over the years, dozens, hundreds ? Did TW acknowledged them ? No, damn it, without any word they just shoved old combat system into new game, so why the hell we should bother. TW must see their mistakes first. Its worst attitude when some devs think -"fanboys will eat it in any state and will ask for more".
If you want a suggestion to reach their ears and then be implemented, you must do two things.
1: Make the Suggestion, being specific about implementation.
2: Get a high rate of positive feedback about the idea. A truly great idea will have near 100% approval, and should be loudly advertised and repeated.
The more often it is brought up with the devs as a positive change that the players are asking for, the more likely it will be implemented.

This is especially true during the beta, and the largest strides in advancing the combat in the game are likely to be made then.
 
Partizan_Rusi said:
Rallix said:
Stop whining about how **** the game is and make suggestions about how to improve it, if it's so bad.
How many times there was suggestions to improve combat over the years, dozens, hundreds ? Did TW acknowledged them ? No, damn it, without any word they just shoved old combat system into new game, so why the hell we should bother. TW must see their mistakes first. Its worst attitude when some devs think -"fanboys will eat it in any state and will ask for more".

:roll: That isn't their attitude at all. You don't know what combat's like, we only know that it doesn't look radically different! They haven't just shoved the old combat system into the new game because they remade the game from scratch, and the other features that we've seen already confirm that they do take heed of suggestions- the crafting and working catapults for example. I'm sure they have noticed lots of suggestions over the years (they even had a dedicated suggestion site for a while back in 2012 and there were plenty of gameplay suggestions made, with votes for favourites) and they will have considered them. You should wait until they show longer combat videos and explain new mechanics before making claims about it.

Furthermore, despite having only seen a short amount of combat, I have observed some clear changes:

1.) New attack and death animations
2.) NPCs don't face hug (watch the 3rd enemy that the player kills in the singleplayer clip in the 'B roll' video)
3.) They switch weapons before you are too close (again the 3rd enemy; usually in Warband they change from missile to melee so late that you get a free hit)
4.) Bloody wounds appear (on bare flesh at least) in the correct location on a victim's body (that is, where they were struck)

Moreover, in that singleplayer section, combat just looked different to me- particularly the AI.
 
I might start a thread about this, but what stood out to me in the combat gameplay was the feinting/interrupting an attack.

It looked bad. Really bad. He goes from a fluid swing to an awkward, stiff blocking animation. I propose instead that there is a "feint" animation, where the character instead returns to default animation (and after feinting you can block).

Idk how exactly it would work, but I'd prefer it instead of just losing all the momentum of your swing, which is funny because an important part of mount and blade's combat is speed and momentum (atleast when on horseback).
 
Honestly, I find it weird as hell that so many people don't want any change at all.

Look, I for one like Warband's combat a lot. But to say that Warband's combat is so perfect to the degree that Bannerlord shouldn't have any major difference is ******** laughable. Warband is a half-sequel to a single player game. It was made on a shoestring budget with multiplayer not as the top priority. There are many areas where the M&B formula could be improved upon, just off the top of my head.

1. Dismounted melee looks stupid as hell. I think this is pretty self-evident. Cavalry looks mostly alright, archery animations aren't the hardest thing to pull off. But infantry? It's like watching bearded robots with swords on ice. And the more skilled the players involved, the sillier it looks. The animation system should be reworked to look more natural. Also, the spinning and "ice skating" should be reduced.
I don't mean ice skating as a problem in the movement system but in the anims. They should look more like actual combat footwork instead of awkward jogging.

2. The 4 directional system, while it works pretty well, is half the reason for point 1. Honestly, while it's an almost sacred mechanic in this community, I think that it should be replaced with something more fluid. Like, you could have a completely "analog" system with as many different directions as Taleworlds can animate (or blend), and a parry system with equally many directions that relies on actual weapon collisions instead of just picking the right direction. An interesting side effect would be that the bigger the blocking weapon, the easier the parry. So you could block with a dagger, but it would be MUCH harder than with a longsword or so. It could make polearms OP though because they would be able to cover a huge area. I don't even wanna imagine how ridiculous blocking with a pike would be. Maybe let us hit their hands? Or maybe polearms should have their own way of parrying?
Whatever, more directions would be cool. Frankly it probably wouldn't change the gameplay all that much, but it would freshen things up a bit and it would look sexier. However, more directional control would be majorly relevant if...

3. The shields were revamped. But I've already faced enough butthurt for my opinions there already. See earlier posts.

4. The sprinting mechanic in WB probably isn't ideal. Honestly I would welcome a sprint key just because as human beings we can actually control how fast we want to run. Also you shouldn't lose your speed because you changed your weapon or parried or so.
No stamina system cowadooty sprinting though. Just more control over when we sprint.
 
1. Dismounted melee looks stupid as hell. I think this is pretty self-evident. Cavalry looks mostly alright, archery animations aren't the hardest thing to pull off. But infantry? It's like watching bearded robots with swords on ice. And the more skilled the players involved, the sillier it looks. The animation system should be reworked to look more natural. Also, the spinning and "ice skating" should be reduced.
I don't mean ice skating as a problem in the movement system but in the anims. They should look more like actual combat footwork instead of awkward jogging.

You keep saying something should be done. How about say something concrete: what should be done, and how does it work as a game mechanic.

The 4 directional system, while it works pretty well, is half the reason for point 1. Honestly, while it's an almost sacred mechanic in this community, I think that it should be replaced with something more fluid. Like, you could have a completely "analog" system with as many different directions as Taleworlds can animate (or blend), and a parry system with equally many directions that relies on actual weapon collisions instead of just picking the right direction. An interesting side effect would be that the bigger the blocking weapon, the easier the parry. So you could block with a dagger, but it would be MUCH harder than with a longsword or so. It could make polearms OP though because they would be able to cover a huge area. I don't even wanna imagine how ridiculous blocking with a pike would be. Maybe let us hit their hands? Or maybe polearms should have their own way of parrying?
Whatever, more directions would be cool. Frankly it probably wouldn't change the gameplay all that much, but it would freshen things up a bit and it would look sexier. However, more directional control would be majorly relevant if...

I think you began to see the problems with your line of thought towards teh end of your post. Too many possibilities make for an impossible game mechanic. Keeping it at 4 directions is complex enough to be interesting and somewhat realistic while not taking anything away from playability.

4. The sprinting mechanic in WB probably isn't ideal. Honestly I would welcome a sprint key just because as human beings we can actually control how fast we want to run. Also you shouldn't lose your speed because you changed your weapon or parried or so.
No stamina system cowadooty sprinting though. Just more control over when we sprint.

Maybe this is an idea. Could try it in Bannerlord. I don't know honestly.
 
Das Knecht said:
You keep saying something should be done. How about say something concrete: what should be done, and how does it work as a game mechanic.
Look I don't have a games studio or skills needed to prototype and try new tweaks, mechanics and overhauls. I just pointed out what looks stupid and why, and I fully expect TW to solve those issues even if I don't have the means to solve them myself. They're a bloody games studio, not to mention a bigger and better funded one than when they made M&B 1 and WB. Issue 1 is mostly a cosmetic one that is the job of animators.

I think you began to see the problems with your line of thought towards teh end of your post. Too many possibilities make for an impossible game mechanic. Keeping it at 4 directions is complex enough to be interesting and somewhat realistic while not taking anything away from playability.

The "polearm flaw" as I'll call it could be solved though. What if for example the polearm parry anim has the weapon pointed kinda diagonally outwards so that rather than having a greater width with your parry, you have greater length? That way you could for example parry an attack that is directed at a teammate from afar to save his skin. Also if the hands were vulnerable it would then mean that you'd want to parry with a polearm from as far away as possible so that they can't reach the hands.


In the end I'm not really intending to make concrete suggestions because I bet the devs have already made up their mind and designed the system they want - I'm just saying that I hope that there is/was tons of experimentation going on at TW that could result in major changes. A total rehash of the WB system would just be lazy
 
Rallix said:
If you want a suggestion to reach their ears and then be implemented, you must do two things.
1: Make the Suggestion, being specific about implementation.
2: Get a high rate of positive feedback about the idea. A truly great idea will have near 100% approval, and should be loudly advertised and repeated.
The more often it is brought up with the devs as a positive change that the players are asking for, the more likely it will be implemented.
Do you see any suggestion implemented into Combat system directly ? No its same old **** and it has been 3 years. Remember first video where someone was killed with wooden shaft of 2h axe (just above hands), about a year ago http://i.imgur.com/Tc9YoIJ.png ? I'm waiting for gameplay video with axe.
Killing part of the weapon is where the axe-head is only, for axe and not wooden shaft. If you need positive feedback for this to be implemented you must be truly struck in the head.
So thats it, nothing truly tricky was asked from them like "stamina", only obvious and logical things to fix damn hitboxes and hit registration, yet again not a single word, statement or blog about combat where TW are acknowledging bs needs to be fixed.
 
Try to think a bit beyond what's simply realistic, if you make it so that you cannot hit with the long axe at point blank range it's going to be useless as a weapon because as soon as someone engages you you're going to be locked up and unable to attack. I'm relatively sure that however realistic it is, this kind of mechanic will be more annoying than actually contribute anything to gameplay.
 
Im sure if you hit someone around the head with the shaft the weight would probably be like getting hit round the head with a cricket bat. Especially when you consider the balance of axes if towards the end of the weapon, more so than any type of bat.
 
IRL you can hold an axe closer to the head to ensure that you don't hit your target with the shaft. In WB you can't do that, so I think it's actually somewhat valid to have the shaft deal lotsa damage.
Alternatively you could have the shaft do less (or blunt) damage and use the X key to switch between a long range and short range mode, like how you can switch between polearm and 2h with long axes. That would actually be kinda cool in SP, trying to capture enemies by knocking them out with the blunt part of your weapon.
 
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