Pikes / Spears

IlluminaZer0 said:

Warband exaggerates the disadvantage of using a long weapon in close combat and makes optimal usage excessively for thrusting. A spear user could just adapt their grip or thrust from a different angle (upwards for example) to accommodate close combat thrusting.

Spoiler

Had to resize image. Original way too large...

Polearm CQC is generally underrated, especially for grappling and knocking down opponents. Warband lacks this type of combat completely though, so...

Click to expand...

The overarm spear thingy is just a crazy myth that does not die.
It looks so cool that's why...good for medieval artists and stuff. That's why you see it a lot. Does not mean it was how it was generally used.

Plenty of videos around about that.

Theo H said:

The overarm spear thingy is just a crazy myth that does not die.
It looks so cool that's why...good for medieval artists and stuff. That's why you see it a lot. Does not mean it was how it was generally used.

Plenty of videos around about that.

Click to expand...

If it is a myth, it's an extremely ancient myth.


It seems rather reasonable when using a large shield, although interestingly enough the video tries to illustrate the merits even without a shield.

IlluminaZer0 said:

Theo H said:

The overarm spear thingy is just a crazy myth that does not die.
It looks so cool that's why...good for medieval artists and stuff. That's why you see it a lot. Does not mean it was how it was generally used.

Plenty of videos around about that.

Click to expand...

If it is a myth, it's an extremely ancient myth.

Spoiler

Spoiler

Spoiler

It seems rather reasonable when using a large shield, although interestingly enough the video tries to illustrate the merits even without a shield.

Spoiler

Click to expand...

Just look at it...how dramatic and exciting it looks. That's why you see it everywhere...it looks visually fantastic. But that's all the merits it really has.

Hard to tell what the guys in the video are going on about. I don't speak that language.

Theo H said:

Just look at it...how dramatic and exciting it looks. That's why you see it everywhere...it looks visually fantastic. But that's all the merits it really has.

Hard to tell what the guys in the video are going on about. I don't speak that language.

Click to expand...

I've heard debates between underhanded and overhanded spear grips. Never that overhanded is useless though. You can alternate between the two gripping styles with little difficulty.

The guy illustrates what he is talking about.

There is one mod that made pikes useful. No, not useful.... fearsome.

Ever played the Eagle and the Radiant Cross? Try closing in to the pike formation there, especially the one of Laurians, or something like that, with over 300 reach, block breaking pikes. You won't, trust me. No matter what you bring with you. You gotta shoot them.

But then they had their own formation system that made infantry nicely hold ranks in combat.

IlluminaZer0 said:

Spoiler

Click to expand...

The really akward thing about this picture is the thumb on the right hand of the left chap. It´s on the wrong side or has the guy a rubber wrist?

Why shouldn´t an overarm grip be as usfuel as an underarm grip, especially if using a shield and in formation? I reckon it depends on the position and style, just like different schools of fencing prefer different stances.

noosers said:

The really akward thing about this picture is the thumb on the right hand of the left chap. It´s on the wrong side or has the guy a rubber wrist?

Why shouldn´t an overarm grip be as usfuel as an underarm grip, especially if using a shield and in formation? I reckon it depends on the position and style, just like different schools of fencing prefer different stances.

Click to expand...

That grip actually allows you to easily transition between underhand and overhand grip. Utilizing a more conventional/intuitive overhand grip forces releasing the spear to transition between upper/under.

I think the bigger issue is that the Polearm user was able to penetrate the plate armor with that type of thrust.  But who knows, the knight to the right does seem to be moving into him after all.

And I agree: I believe it is largely situational. Spears and (especially) Polearms have far more technical variety than single grip stabilitty stabitty.

Why shouldn´t he have been penetrating that piece of plate? Plate isn´t that thick and the spike is pretty malicious.

After all, the polehammer was developed to do exactly that. Crush, kill and destroy heavily armoured opponents. And both chaps aim on a weak spot in the armour - armpit and gorget.

And if you´ve ever seen a historical polehammer or poleaxe you´ll fear these weapons even more.

I reckon it´s a Talhoffer picture?

Yep it's a Talhoffer picture.
I may be overestimating the toughness of plate armor, as the penetration didn't seem very extreme with this video. Then again, the guy isn't a trained warrior and the target is moving into the left knight... May be a difference in armor quality as well, I really don't know.

Addendum: I am likely just vastly underestimating the significance of them targeting the armpit and gorget.

Ivor said:

There is one mod that made pikes useful. No, not useful.... fearsome.

Ever played the Eagle and the Radiant Cross? Try closing in to the pike formation there, especially the one of Laurians, or something like that, with over 300 reach, block breaking pikes. You won't, trust me. No matter what you bring with you. You gotta shoot them.

But then they had their own formation system that made infantry nicely hold ranks in combat.

Click to expand...

That sounds really neat, although it also sounds like potential overkill. (This is just the melee fiend in me speaking... I still want to smash stuff up! ) As a whole it sounds like it may be F&S done right. Will definitely download just to see what it's all about.

Pikes + This topic reminds me of my initial denial of pikes being held at shoulder level as well.

I´ve read somewhere around on this forum that Talhoffers book should be regarded more rather more than advertising as anything else. Employing a fencemaster would have little benefit if all the details were depicted.

Quite an interesting argument it was - claiming the book was more like your medieval martial arts shopping flyer.

I'm not sure how it went in medieval Europe, but I know for sure that in China there was a huge difference between techniques taught to the soldiers and those used by warriors (from Martial Arts Schools) or nobles.

The spear for example was the most common footman's wpn, but amongst the soldiers you'll never see even a hint of what learned martial artists were able to do.

So my point is...continually looking up depictings and lore is fine, but you should keep in mind that gladiators surely employed a wider variety of techniques than common soldiers, or pikemen for that instance who were expected to stay in a group.

Agreed. Big difference between art and combat. Good luck holding a heavy one handed spear above your shoulder during prolonged combat btw. Hence why the Romans preferred short stabbing spears, as it was the most efficient way compared to the phalanx. I've taken several martial arts and I can attest that many of the things depicted in art, movies, etc. are obviously more for show than practicality. Anyway, warbands AI is terrible and spears probably won't ever be that useful.

noosers said:

I´ve read somewhere around on this forum that Talhoffers book should be regarded more rather more than advertising as anything else. Employing a fencemaster would have little benefit if all the details were depicted.

Click to expand...

I never referred to Talhoffer's as a bible of sorts either, thus why I showed differing references. It would also be a rather poor advertisement if the images depicted destroyed the fencemaster's credibility.

But yeah, I must admit to still doubting the armor penetration ability of such a thrust. Especially with the video+image in mind illustrating plate armor's toughness.

wookdaddy said:

Good luck holding a heavy one handed spear above your shoulder during prolonged combat btw...

Click to expand...

Never stated that they would hold it above their heads for a prolonged (how long is "prolonged anyways?") period of time. In fact, my last replies have been showing how you can easily transition between differing gripping styles.

Medieval weapons are also generally not heavy. Same applies to armor. It is such a common myth that you even have movies with knights needing cranes to mount their horses.

zykox said:

So my point is...continually looking up depictings and lore is fine, but you should keep in mind that gladiators surely employed a wider variety of techniques than common soldiers...

Click to expand...

The entire point is refuting that overhand grip is useless, why should I "keep in mind that gladiators employed a wider variety of techniques" when that's the entire reason for the replies in the first place?

zykox said:

The spear for example was the most common footman's wpn, but amongst the soldiers you'll never see even a hint of what learned martial artists were able to do....

Click to expand...

There are plenty of "hints," I posted a few. Using some form of historic reference and analyzing the properties of the weapons is far better than simply making assertions with no basis.

That the spear is among (or is) the most prominent weapons in human history does not mean that it should be associated with peasants/commoners. Consider that the Chinese refer to the spear as "The King of Weapons" and Odin's prominent weapon is a spear.

This becomes especially true if you do not make a distinction between Polearms and Spears like Warband does.

It's been my experience in Pendor, that spears and pikes are only effective in combat in a line/hold formation with infantry/archers in support - and only against Calvary, and only during the initial charge.

Conquering Pendor requires a mixed military to succeed.

I once tried to take on the Jatu with only pikemen, and was swiftly routed.

To IlluminaZer0:

No no, I didn't mean to discredit the spear as a peasant weapon, just that it was the cheapest wpn to produce and the most effective wpn to distribute for the thousands of Chinese troops, hence I also mentioned Martial Arts schools specializing on the spear.

In the same spirit, many of China's most famous generals, like Guan Yu etc. were wielders of spears/halberds.
.................
I do not know the details or the answer to how spears were used in the antique in the army, but I mentioned the gladiators because they were usually individually more skilled than common soldiers.

Also, formation & army fighting is quite different from duels, so I mentioned this as a possible factor in considering what technique was used.
I don't know the answer, so I tried to contribute to the discussion by adding a factor, that may not have been considered.

That said, I do not think of an overhand grip as useless. Personally I wouldn't use it vs an opponent with a shield, but it is certainly viable against someone without one. Short and quick thrusts can be a lot deadlier and more difficult to parry than one might believe, and since you use the short spear in combination with a shield for defense or pushing back close enemies, it's still a good combination.
Since the throwing motion is pretty similar, you also become much less predictable, though of course not in a duel.

Besides the above, I doubt there really is a big difference in fatigue in an overhand or underhand grip in combat.
They just use different muscles with different motions, so it's a matter of training.
E.g. for outsiders with a weak biceps, just the idea of holding shield for a long time seems a stupid idea...similar to physically weaker women never seeing the point of carrying much/heavy stuff, which is nothing to men usually. A big brawned guy would probably always go for the heaviest plate armor and wouldn't understand the advantages of lighter armor.
---> People are prone to judge from their own point of view.
________________________________________
Pikes are horrible wpns in Warband, but warspears with shields on powerful units (even non-maxed CKO) can be quite effective even vs infantry.

Never tried pikes on CKOs but I might try it out next time. With PS 7-10, a miracle might occur, who knows...

You  need to keep in mind that warband has a special penalty for longer spears if used with a shield.

That penalty was removed for the short spear and the war spear as it´s stupid to penalize a short infantry weapon used with a shield the same as one penalizes a 2,5m long lance used with a shield.

Warbands combat and damage model favours archery and has little love to some weapons - like spears. Unfortunately, as you can do much more with a spear than  stab straight ahead. Alas, each engine has it limitations.

So live with it.
Pikes and the short spears are dreadful enough if engaged by the player. And if you mix them with decent melee infantry you get a vast meat mincing machine which will kill anything, including heavy horse faster than you can imagine.

Lot´sa fun to be had with a healthy mix of pikes, axes, archers and a strong defensive position.

noosers said:

Lot´sa fun to be had with a healthy mix of pikes, axes, archers and a strong defensive position.

Click to expand...

The formation sounds pretty weak vs archers.

Reason 1: You have less archers
Reason 2: Pikes and archers won't have shields

----> There is no perfect formation. It always depends on the enemy and the battlefield.

Cavalry will trample infantry + archers on open field.
Spearmen are good vs cavalry, weak vs archers.
Infantry will win vs spearmen, can defeat archers with losses and defeat cavalry on higher ground.

Mixed troops will lose against a pure army setup depending on the battleground, e.g. mixed vs cavalry on open field; Mixed vs pure archers in mountains.
...........
High tier archers will easily shatter shields of infantry with enough distance, proficiency and PD. Also, infantry can't charge, and archers in PoP are still reasonably well armored and proficient in close combat.

-----> Archery needs nerfing in Warband, Infantry is much less dangerous than it should be, Spearmen cannot be pure anti-cavalry so they need mixing with infantry.
Cavalry is an unhappy unbalanced mixture between OP and bad AI.

When you hold a shield you aren't primarily using your bicep. Also, plate armor was heavy as ****. Doesn't matter how strong you are, made you immobile and a walking man tank.

@wookdaddy:
That´s utter and proper ****.
Plate armour isn´t heavy as sh!te nor does it make you slow or incapable of moving. The kit your fully armoured medieval men at arms wore around hasn´t surpassed 35kg.

Modern infantry carries more gear and is still able to fight at a reasonable speed.

The main problem about wearing much armour isn´t weight, it´s heat. If you look around the www can watch a lot af amazing things performed with full plate, like backflips and jumps on and off a running horse without much trouble.

@ zykox:
That formation is astoundingly solid and good versus archers, the more if you manouver your cavalry around the opponent and have them slaughter the archers.

All you  need to do is accomodate yourself to the thought of accepting a few losses. Or half your army, if things go wahooney or you blunder.

wookdaddy said:

When you hold a shield you aren't primarily using your bicep. Also, plate armor was heavy as ****. Doesn't matter how strong you are, made you immobile and a walking man tank.

Click to expand...

A Knight would likely have a loadout lighter than a modern soldier with the additional benefit of superior weight distribution.

Plate armor was also designed to offer good flexibility, in some cases offering superior flexibility than humans are capable of.
If there is one thing that I find more underrated than a good polearm, it's good armor.

Addendum: OK, not "more" underrated. At least armor is around in fiction to look cool. But when it comes to functional appreciation, it's pretty bad.