Baltic Factions

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Korinov said:
So the estonian lions (first appeared at the late 13th century as far as I'm concerned) are "un-authentic" but the "chase symbol" (supposedly from the mid 13th century) is "authentic". Care to elaborate?  :grin:

Anything we choose is not gonna be 100% "authentic", as there's simply no baltic heraldry from 1200. Honestly I don't see the difference between picking something from 50 years later or 100.
Click to expand...

It is a well known fact history does not always evolve at the same speed. The country can change in 50 years

The lions are Danish, the conquerors of Estonia who were only starting their conquest of Estonia in 1200 - therefore they are actually enemies of Estonia.

The columns belong to a different dynasty - Gedimins. The chase seal on the other hand belongs to Mindaug - the very person we are planning to have in game and most likely a son of the ruler of Lithuania

But as Dr Thomas said there are serious doubts about the authenticity of that seal so I do not insist on using it
 
kdm. what do you suggest we have for flag of the tribes of Estonia, Latgalians, Curonians. IMO the lions are closest we can get as none of those tribes had any heraldics at all. the only other thing possible is improvising, and making their flag symbolising a thing from nature. they were Pagans and believed in the powers of nature.

About un-authentic, already by merging tribes into other tribes is un-authentic. so if we are trying to make it all authentic, why not just make all tribes independent.
if you dont agree, pleas give us your suggestions about the heraldics.
 
king of europe said:
kdm. what do you suggest we have for flag of the tribes of Estonia, Latgalians, Curonians. IMO the lions are closest we can get as none of those tribes had any heraldics at all. the only other thing possible is improvising, and making their flag symbolising a thing from nature. they were Pagans and believed in the powers of nature.

About un-authentic, already by merging tribes into other tribes is un-authentic. so if we are trying to make it all authentic, why not just make all tribes independent.
if you dont agree, pleas give us your suggestions about the heraldics.
Click to expand...

I prefer not to think about heraldics but just the visual aspect. It is very unlikely to see heraldic CoAs on militia anyway.  I ask myself what is the most likely image to appear on their armour. And from that point of view the symbol of their worst enemies at that time is the least likely image I would see. If I asked an 1200 estonian to wear lions he would spit on them!

I was thinking maybe some pagan idols like Tharapita
 
Estonians didnt have heraldics on any of armor they used.Their shields were plain wooden ones. However some horsemen used a colored cloth near the tip of his spear( something like heraldic spear)
the colour was symbolising the soldier´s elder´s colour.

@ Korinov : is there a way to make NBT lords without flags( on the map and everywhere else) . During battle , the elders didnt use anything that would have any heraldics on. they usually had two-handed weapons ( axes or hammers were more common ) and mail armour or heavy leather armour.

same thing could be used with other tribes without heraldics.
 
king of europe said:
they usually had two-handed weapons ( axes or hammers were more common ) and mail armour or heavy leather armour.
Click to expand...
War hammers in 1200 AD? Two handed even? :neutral:
 
kdm said:
Town robbers usually have warhammers in game
Click to expand...
Yeah, but if I know anything about two-handed warhammers, it is:
a) they didn't look the way they are portrayed in any modern game or movie, including Warband
b) they appeared in battlefields a lot later than 1200 AD

All in all, I doubt that any unit in our mod should have them, even if that is the present case.
 
About the heraldy, I think the best option would be to have the nearest-in-time CoA from the future, as long as it's not particularly wrong for the present situation (i.e. influenced by later sources - f.e. this is presumably the CoA of Ioan Asen II, who in 1200 was about 5 years old and thus quite "present"; however, that CoA is obviously influenced by the Latin Empire, which didn't even exist in 1200, let alone influence this area's heraldry enough. Same with the Danish-Estonian lions, I guess - that influence appears at a later time). And if quapitty has some free time, he could perhaps make some "ahistorical" CoAs, based on generic images - the previous mentioned ubruses for the Orthodox (as well as images of saints etc), and for the Pagans - Pagan/folk symbols. That's what many other mods (for M&B, TW etc) usually do for factions that don't have a proper heraldry - the steppe tribes usually have their symbol as some of their tamgas, while the other factions sometimes even use decorative elements. Unfortunately, that's how the game is - all factions (and most lords) are *required* to have *some* kind of symbol.
 
I guess this is my final version

baltictribesc1200.jpg


Perhaps too many settlements for some areas, we should choose which ones to use in game
 
Looking at the map - is there any good reason not to join Curonians with Semigallians and Latgallians? They all were Baltic tribes after all
 
as far as the northern part goes, riga doesnt exist. and that area must be under crusader territory.
Curonians and Latgalians were completely different tribes. so imo merging isnt good . the map has several empty spots. especially disturbing is the prussian souther areas and the space between Toreida and Leole
 
kdm said:
Looking at the map - is there any good reason not to join Curonians with Semigallians and Latgallians? They all were Baltic tribes after all
Click to expand...
Curonians where still at there golden age. There where one of those tribes who where actively raiding (mostly in the baltic sea, which makes them the most active sea fearing tribe) and not just being raided by other tribes. Archeologically they also left a lot of Curonian unique artifacts - Curonian type helmets, Curonian T type sword sub type and all kind of jewelery.

Uniting them with Semigallians and Latggalians makes as much seance as uniting Lithuanians with them, imho.

kdm said:
The columns belong to a different dynasty - Gedimins. The chase seal on the other hand belongs to Mindaug - the very person we are planning to have in game and most likely a son of the ruler of Lithuania

But as Dr Thomas said there are serious doubts about the authenticity of that seal so I do not insist on using it
Click to expand...
Sorry, but the seal is from a latter age, the way the horseman is portraited (the shield form and the crown) looks baroque to me. Not to mention the Jogaila/Jagiello dynasty symbol on it's shield. Check the seal I've posted, that's the seal of Mindaugas.

I've did some research, the first Grand Duke of Lithuania to have a horseman on his seal was Algirdas. There are no real Baltic heraldry left from earlier then XIVth. century.
 
king of europe said:
as far as the northern part goes, riga doesnt exist. and that area must be under crusader territory.
Curonians and Latgalians were completely different tribes. so imo merging isnt good . the map has several empty spots. especially disturbing is the prussian souther areas and the space between Toreida and Leole
Click to expand...

Yes that small piece of land where Riga stands was occupied by the crusaders. Riga was built in 1201 but the place was selected in 1200 so there might have been a village. I think we should have crusaders in that area but they did not have any settlements yet

king of europe said:
especially disturbing is the prussian souther areas and the space between Toreida and Leole
Click to expand...
The southern part of prussia was scarcely populated because it was frequently raided by the prussians. Prussians mostly settled along the shore of the baltic sea. I guess same problem with the area between the estonians and latgalians - frequent raids
 
DrTomas said:
Sorry, but the seal is from a latter age, the way the horseman is portraited (the shield form and the crown) looks baroque to me. Not to mention the Jogaila/Jagiello dynasty symbol on it's shield. Check the seal I've posted, that's the seal of Mindaugas.

I've did some research, the first Grand Duke of Lithuania to have a horseman on his seal was Algirdas. There are no real Baltic heraldry left from earlier then XIVth. century.
Click to expand...

If it was from a latter age they wouldn't use cyrillic letters on the edges. It was published in 1910 and allegedly taken from a private collection. The author claims it is the seal of Mindaugas.

Therefore either it is authentic mid 13 century or more likely a forgery
 
kdm said:
If it was from a latter age they wouldn't use cyrillic letters on the edges. It was published in 1910 and allegedly taken from a private collection. The author claims it is the seal of Mindaugas.

Therefore either it is authentic mid 13 century or more likely a forgery
Click to expand...
I don't see why would it be in cyrillic in XIIIth century either. (especialy when the sources from XIV century mention Mindaugas seal having a lattin inscription). Nor many other out of place factors - like the Jagiellon dynasti COA. But just lets leave it at that.  :wink:

In the end there's no real coat of arms for any of the Baltic tribes in XIIIth. century. So it's either to use latter sources or just use some symbols from folk art as replacement for them. Knowing that most of the nobility coat of arms at latter age was not far from those, I'd say they would be one of the best bets.
 
Do you maybe have any suggestions / references for 'baltic folk art'? Since f.e. whole Bulgarian Tsardom has only one coa I think it would be more than enough to have one symbol per each baltic tribe.
 
yes. quapitty , the only problem is which thing

for estonians i thought. either a holy tree(or animal), or  something from  Oeselians - a  ship(white) on the sea(white waves, blue background)
 
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