Charging and Bashing, the grits of melee

Though it may have more minor annoyances, I really only have two major problems with M&B's combat system. It needs bashing and charging.

By bashing I mean the ability to use *anything* in your hand to deal your opponent a stunning blow. The fact that you can't punch in M&B can be infuriating, especially when fighting shielded enemies as you can't get past them. Perhaps this could be implemented as a kind of third attack option. It wouldn't do too much damage, mainly for stunning so that you can hit them.

Charging. Moving in M&B is rather cumbersome. If you lose your horse or get off you move at the speed of a granny jogging, even with high athletic skills. This isn't entirely a big deal, but seeing people power-walk into combat is pretty stupid. You should be able move at some ungodly speed and have a kind of trample bonus, like a horse. Not much damage, maybe 4-8, and you would have a stamina bar that would have to re-fill all the way before you could do it again. It would also be cool to have a weapon set to this, I.E. you charge with sword in air and slam into someone and stun them and then cleave them.

Let me know what you think.

Yeah I always thought a short sprint-type action would be cool so you can cut off those damn horse archers in the arena or get the hell out of the way of a charging horse.

bloodmerc said:

Yeah I always thought a short sprint-type action would be cool so you can cut off those damn horse archers in the arena or get the hell out of the way of a charging horse.

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Same here. I think sprinting is a must have for a game like M&B.

That was the basis of my "RUN!!!" thread but....

Armagan said:

Sorry. I'd like to keep the game controls as simple as possible. I don't think sprinting is such a critical feature as to warrant an extra button, not to mention a lot of extra work.

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I have already made my case for sprinting, but perhaps there is hope that if enough people make the request then there is a chance we will see it someday.
There was also a very valid support raised....

Tsuken said:

It does add quite a lot of possibilities, but a lot of complicated things with that as well. AI has to be updated, animations have to be added, balance issues have to be solved, controls have to be added, etc. Not to mention the impact on gameplay. Maybe the addition adds realism and fun, but it's going to cost too much time and effort to get it in right.

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But I must respectfully disagree with some of the assumptions. I have the run key set to Left Shift when I play Call of Duty and it is a seamless and natural motion for me to hold the key down with my pinky while I ASDW move.
As far as the effect of adding the sprint feature to the game, I think that I am highly qualified to speak on this matter.
I was a competitive ladder match regular in the original Call of Duty, which released without the ability to sprint. I never felt that a sprint feature was necessary within the context of the game. The game was fun, balanced and felt natural.
I was also a ladder match regular in the Call of Duty expansion. The expansion introduced the sprint feature to the gameplay, and the gameplay was transformed in ways that I never would have expected. I can no longer play the original Call of Duty because the game feels unfinished without a sprint feature.

I say this with total confidence, that the players of Mount & Blade will LOVE the sprint feature if it is ever implemented.
I think that the simplest ideas are often the best, and what could be simpler than adding a degree of strategy to movement itself? By implementing a sprint feature in conjunction with a stamina bar, you will be adding a level of passive continuous resource management to an aspect of the game which formerly had been little more than a simple excercise in "connecting the dots" as you travel from point to point.

I can only ask the community to remember that Mount & Blade is a game which is fun even when the graphical effects are unfinished and the taverns are little more than grey rectangles. Adding a sprint feature to the game will add enjoyment on a more fundamental level than a graphical tweak or a new type of armor could ever achieve.

Tsuken said:

I say this with total confidence, that the players of Mount & Blade will LOVE the sprint feature if it is ever implemented.
I think that the simplest ideas are often the best, and what could be simpler than adding a degree of strategy to movement itself? By implementing a sprint feature in conjunction with a stamina bar, you will be adding a level of passive continuous resource management to an aspect of the game which formerly had been little more than a simple excercise in "connecting the dots" as you travel from point to point.

I can only ask the community to remember that Mount & Blade is a game which is fun even when the graphical effects are unfinished and the taverns are little more than grey rectangles. Adding a sprint feature to the game will add enjoyment on a more fundamental level than a graphical tweak or a new type of armor could ever achieve.

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I agree with you 100%. We should start a poll so Armagan would see how many of us in community would love too see sprinting in M&B.

I agree, however, this will lead (well, we'll have to have this eventially anyway, I think) to implementation of stamina.
Otherwise, it will be unbalanced.
Also, enemies will have to use this too (at least, occasionaly) cause otherwise it will be an unfair advantage to the player.

I think that's the main point: AI combat behaviour. A more complex combat system requires more complex AI programming, which, apart from taking lots of time, might very easily prove unsatisfactory in its results, because the more complex the system is, the more likely it is for players to be able to "outthink" the AI by finding actions that lead to wrong/no responses from the AI...

There's a lot of this in the game already, mainly in how infantry deals with cavalry, and the complete lack of situational awareness, for example (meaning that if you face an enemy with shields and brought a crossbow party, all you have to do is ride around behind the enemy closer to them than your crossbowmen, and they'll all die with bolts in their backs in no time, 0 (well, almost, the AI undershoots more often than it overshoots) risk involved)...

Personally, I believe that a more limited combat system with an AI able to handle it well is preferable to a complex system in which the player, due to AI deficiencies, can reign supreme...

Balor said:

I agree, however, this will lead (well, we'll have to have this eventially anyway, I think) to implementation of stamina.
Otherwise, it will be unbalanced.
Also, enemies will have to use this too (at least, occasionaly) cause otherwise it will be an unfair advantage to the player.

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Of course stamina system or atleast a cooldown is needed to be in if armagan thinks about adding sprint.

Jackx.
You are right that AI needs to be fixed before adding new stuff.

jackx said:

I think that's the main point: AI combat behaviour. A more complex combat system requires more complex AI programming, which, apart from taking lots of time, might very easily prove unsatisfactory in its results, because the more complex the system is, the more likely it is for players to be able to "outthink" the AI by finding actions that lead to wrong/no responses from the AI...

There's a lot of this in the game already, mainly in how infantry deals with cavalry, and the complete lack of situational awareness, for example (meaning that if you face an enemy with shields and brought a crossbow party, all you have to do is ride around behind the enemy closer to them than your crossbowmen, and they'll all die with bolts in their backs in no time, 0 (well, almost, the AI undershoots more often than it overshoots) risk involved)...

Personally, I believe that a more limited combat system with an AI able to handle it well is preferable to a complex system in which the player, due to AI deficiencies, can reign supreme...

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I'm hesitant to say what can and can't be done by a guy like Armagan. What he's pulled off already - the semi-realistic feel of combat on foot and on horseback, that's something nobody else has pulled that I know of. And considering all the games out there with horses and medieval combat in them that's saying something.

Still, this is a very insightful post. The more details, the more that can go wrong and mess up the balanced (mostly) gameplay we already enjoy. The more options and details, the more tools a player has to exploit that the AI might not be able to master. I think I'd rather see the AI do better with what it's already got than complicate things if that's the choice we have.

There's always M&B II down the road. Who knows what Taleworlds will cook up once it hires a few more Swadian Militia to swell the ranks.

If there is stamina, dont make it so every swing needs stamina, in real life, yes that works. But not for a game, only for running and maybe jumping. Also PLEASE MAKE RUNNING FASTER! You see people on films with all their armour run fast into each, yes they are only films, but i wish both the enemy and i could run fast instend of as already said 'power walking'