axemaster
I personally like those new animations, don't know about left swing on horseback but I think polearm without shield animation is actually pretty cool 
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There are shoulder problems in many of the animations. Perhaps the motion capture set-up is missing information for the collarbones. I might actually make a thread about this.
Whaaaaaaat.
Both hands should be further down the shaft. Also the arms are clearly drawn too far back (character is breaking his own wrist for one thing).
Scientia Excelsa said:Let me first say that, for the most part, I love the new animations! My only problem is with the new two-handed polearm stab, as demonstrated by this handsome Hoboknight cuss:
Model: Scipio the Scholar
This is obviously ridiculous. The front hand needs to be much farther up the shaft.
Whaaaaaaat.
Both hands should be further down the shaft. Also the arms are clearly drawn too far back (character is breaking his own wrist for one thing).
Papa Lazarou said:
No, the right hand is in exactly the correct position: as far back as possible. The actual handgrip isn't quite right but isn't that important -- the primary grip would be with the index finger and thumb, with the rest of the fingers partially and increasingly open towards the pinky and ready to contract as the spear moves forward. It's roughly the same hand shape you use for swinging a kukri, but the force is trasmitted through the grip instead of around it as a pivot point. I'm not sure if Warbands can animate this.
The thrust used isn't one that uses a "slipping" grip (which would be cool) but rather one that keeps both hands in the same spot on the spearshaft. It's not too bad, really, IRL (although as you pointed out the handgrip needs to be different). Reminds me of bayonet technique.
Torso movement is a bit exaggerated, although the motion depicted, with that slight arc and everything, would be just about right if the left hand grip were reversed...
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My opinions:
The 1h spear thrust with shield is near perfect. It doesn't quite look right from horseback, though, I think the old 1h spear/lance thrust should be used while mounted.
2h thrust seems to have a lot of hangtime, but it doesn't seem to be actually any slower, it just keyframes from the end of the thrust. Repeated thrusts look really good with it.
Polearm swings are 100% better.
1h left/right swings have really good swinging animation, but the start position is really awkward. I like the actual movement once the blade starts going but those chamber positions are badly in need of tweaking. It seems like the elbow is just in the wrong place on all of them.
1h left-to-right: Either the elbow needs to be moved way higher, so that it's in line with the wrist, or the blade needs to be angled much further upward.
1h right-to-left: less shoulder, more torso.
1h thrust: Drop the elbow a bit so it's parallel to the wrist.
Jack_Merchantson said:
Well, spear thrust with shield is awkward. If you actualy look at it, and try to repeat the animation in real life, youll find its quite retarded and hurts your wrist, and VERY, VERY awkward. They should have kept the old animations, As i said theyr trying to fix something that wasnt broken, and as a result, its crappy and broken now.
Over hand? why an overhand? this game is based in a Dark age time period, Knightly times etc, im pretty sure they didnt start doing the overhand thrusts till maybe like 1700s or 1800s? i dunno about that, but thats my guessKleidophoros said:
Sir Tristran said:
It's an easy leverage grip. I was using it for (improvised) spear & shield sparring a week and a half ago. You must have really weak wrists.
The only thing I'd change about it is to put the elbow down and the hand up at shoulder height, it's easier on the thumb.
For a static position, they are much too far back.Jack_Merchantson said:
Basically none of the combat animations in-game at the moment look like real people.
Papa Lazarou said:
If there weren't multiple 15th century fechtbuchs showing that hand position as a stance for foot combat with a spear or lance, I wouldn't argue with you.
Do you mean that you think the position is uncomfortable as well, or are you just being rhetorical?
Anyway, I'm getting used to the arm position, even though I don't think it's a very good choice since we only have one spear thrust. That said, the left hand is a problem, the angle of the torso seems pretty odd, and the point is not actually facing the target.
If that was ever considered good form or natural for an aggressive position, I'll eat my hat.
Anyway, I'm getting used to the arm position, even though I don't think it's a very good choice since we only have one spear thrust. That said, the left hand is a problem, the angle of the torso seems pretty odd, and the point is not actually facing the target.
If that was ever considered good form or natural for an aggressive position, I'll eat my hat.
FrisianDude
Archduke
His neck looks odd there, but the two-handed stab looks much better in action than it does on screenies. (The one handed stab looks a lot worse, to be honest.)
Skyrage
Master Knight
I noticed that slashing-through-horse-heads still hasn't been fixed. The ability to slash right in front of you as a horseman has to go....badly. Riders should ride past their target and hit them as they pass by, not ram then straight from the front and slash through the horse head at the same time, making it completely impossible to defend against.
Jack_Merchantson said:
mmk, well, i have broken my wrist before, could be it, but what style do you use? because remember, the soldiers here are normal soldiers, theyr not gona be black belts or anything, just normal styles.
Also, the new thrust is really just aimed different, and doesnt make sense. In a thrust, when your starting it, the point should be actualy aimed at the target. In this, its aimed to the right of a target, then he does a sort of right to left thrust. Also, in the animation, hes basicly just bending his wrist upwards. When he thrusts like this, he doesnt lean with it, as a normal spear thrust was done back then, he more swings it then thrusts if anything. the old one was better, because they used a basic, normal thrust, the kind a common Sergeant would use.Sir Tristran said:
Papa Lazarou said:
The torso angle is, indeed, bad, it should be more upright. And yes, the point should be directly at the foe (the off-angle is especially noticeable with pike, which I noticed last night).
As far as the hand position and stance angle, though, something very close to it is depicted in Fiore's Flos Duellatorum (1410), in gladiatoria (anonymous, mid 1400's), Filippo Vadi's De Arte Gladitotia Dimicandi, and Fior di Battaglia (unknown, 1410). The spearman is basically looking over his left shoulder and has the spear directed back that way. The foot position in those images generally shows the spearman being turned slightly away from his opponent, in order to shorten the spear as much as possible. Some of these also show a similar stance, but with the hands crossed, with the left hand behind the right hand - I **** you not.
http://www.getty.edu/art/gettyguide/artObjectDetails?artobj=1706&handle=book&pg=34
The spear shaft should be higher up than it is, at shoulder or head height -- where the actual thrust starts from in the animation is a lot closer to where it should chamber. (Now that I think about it, the same is true of the 1h spear thrust).
And no, I don't find that hand position particularly uncomfortable. It's the same rear-hand position you see in just about every spear technique from around the world, only without the "slipping" type front-hand work you see in Japanese spear. Instead, the front hand just rides back and hangs on.
Sir Tristran said:
Improvised. There's really no better way I've found to hold the spear in an underhand grip while thrusting over a sheild, than to turn the wrist out like that. You can either thrust straight or lift your hand up and thrust downward (although this latter comes with a heightened chance of disarm). Also, when you get tired you can cheat and rest the spearpoint on the edge of your shield.
The elbow and wrist should really be in line vertically, though, the position the 1h spear currently chambers in is tiring after a while. Interestingly, it seems like the animation actually goes through the proper chamber position once you actually make the thrust, it's as if the chamber position is set too early in the animation cycle. In the technique I use, I go through the current 1h spear chamber position on the way to my normal stance, when recovering from a thrust.
The animation as-is is good for thrusting around the side of your shield while staying behind it, but in WB that would be cheating.
ScientiaExcelsa
Master Knight
Papa Lazarou said:
Exactly. I meant that the front hand was too far down the shaft relative to the body. Look, I barely know which end of a real spear to hold; I'm just saying that holding it like that is gonna cause wrist soreness unlike anything my Wii can dish out.
Yes, that what iv been trying to say, i just didnt know it, o.o lol i knew the new thrust animation would be good for SOMETHING but not what it is ment for in warband. Also, this type of thrust is POINTLESS then for horseback. I practice horseback "combat" all the time, from lances, HA, Cavalry swordsman ship etc etc. The Old thrust animation was best, because, IRL, by leaning down with the thrust, youd give yourself MUCH more reach. You didnt need to put much power behind it, because your spear point is gona have yours and your combined horses weight + the speed behind the point if your going somewhat fast! which is why most cavalry sabers werent even sharp alot of the times (in the 17-1800s, after the medieval time period atleast.) They didnt need to be. Now, of course your gona thrust tho, itll give you more reach. But the old animation was as realistic as it gets. No need to fix it.Jack_Merchantson said:Sir Tristran said:
Improvised. There's really no better way I've found to hold the spear in an underhand grip while thrusting over a sheild, than to turn the wrist out like that. You can either thrust straight or lift your hand up and thrust downward (although this latter comes with a heightened chance of disarm). Also, when you get tired you can cheat and rest the spearpoint on the edge of your shield.
The elbow and wrist should really be in line vertically, though, the position the 1h spear currently chambers in is tiring after a while. Interestingly, it seems like the animation actually goes through the proper chamber position once you actually make the thrust, it's as if the chamber position is set too early in the animation cycle. In the technique I use, I go through the current 1h spear chamber position on the way to my normal stance, when recovering from a thrust.
The animation as-is is good for thrusting around the side of your shield while staying behind it, but in WB that would be cheating.
I really suggest that it goes back to the old animations, i admit, i like the 2h spear thrust, but that is it. In terms of animations, the game has taken a step backwards, Otherwise, everything elses is great, from the sweet spots on weapons, to the way lancing works now.
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