ZandMod I: Troop trees, tweaks and tints [DOWNLOAD QUICKFIX - 2008-12-13]

[Servitor]

Sounds like a some funny changes. -_- Though I prefer my own Vaegir troop tree (No offence meant) hehe.

I will try it out.
Servitor

 

[Zandman]

Mmkay...

Looks interesting, are you using the mod system or just editing files mostly?

Also, a lot of this looks like some of what I'm aiming to do on my own mod, so when you rlease it can you release the changes you made to the python code so other people can add your stuff in fast?

P.S. If you want to do some coding on my mod at all you're welcome btw, it's about expanding Calradia and adding new realms but also with as many other cool tweaks as we can pack in.

Nope - not using the mod system at all.
It sounded beautiful and interesting, but when I discovered I had to learn Python and sort of become a programmer overnight... not a chance. Even installing in and using it seemed like a chore to me - I'm too old and too uninterested in programming to do it (I wish I weren't).

So I'm using the Item Editor to add and tweak equipment and the Troop Editor to do the rest. Other tweaks will be done by editing the .txt files.

But I could be interested in contributing to your mod if at all possible.
Where can I find info about it?

 

[Jubal]

http://z9.invisionfree.com/exilian/index.php?showforum=15

That's our subforum, although it's a little out of date.

 

[Wandering Barbarian]

Dunno, dude

 

[Halcyon]

your idea is great, and ill be looking forward to it.

Just one suggestion, i believe it would be better for each faction to keep its uniqueness and difference in culture if you will. So for example instead of having a vaegir captain and a swadian captain, give the vaegir or swadian captain a different denomination, just so it iss different and you dont see "faction name" captains running around everywhere. It would seem to much the same.

hope you take into consideration what i said. either way Good luck hope it comes out well.

 

[Zandman]

Just one suggestion, i believe it would be better for each faction to keep its uniqueness and difference in culture if you will. So for example instead of having a vaegir captain and a swadian captain, give the vaegir or swadian captain a different denomination, just so it iss different and you dont see "faction name" captains running around everywhere. It would seem to much the same.

Yeah, I've been thinking the same.
Thing is, I think I need to find a balance between that cultural uniqueness and the fact that troop ranks do seem to be similar in real life: a sergeant is pretty much a sergeant whether he/she is in the Us, Norwegian, French, Russian or Argentinian army, e.g. Also, this is good for orientation - so that the players don't have to memorize the troop trees to have an idea how powerful the unit is (for all they know, a Vaegir "Guard" could be a recruit you set to guard the toilet).
- but don't worry, you'll never see a Nord or Khergit Captain running around the map. I wouldn't do that.

You can already see some differences, though, between the Swadian and Vaegir armies: I've kept the Vaegir Guard name, even though they in effect are ranked as sergeants, and you'll also note that the Vaegir and Swadian Sharpshooters are in different places in the hierarchy. I'll keep up these small differences with the other factions as well - but I won't change the structure that's already present in Native. it's a good building block.

I'd like it very much if you kept checking in when I update my troop trees. Have a look and tell me if I manage to keep the balance, or if it gets to uncreative and boring - I welcome the feedback.
Thanks a lot for commenting!

 

[Zandman]

Dunno, dude

All right... so what could nudge you from "dunno" to yes"?
I'd love to know.

 

[Halcyon]

Just one suggestion, i believe it would be better for each faction to keep its uniqueness and difference in culture if you will. So for example instead of having a vaegir captain and a swadian captain, give the vaegir or swadian captain a different denomination, just so it iss different and you dont see "faction name" captains running around everywhere. It would seem to much the same.

You can already see some differences, though, between the Swadian and Vaegir armies: I've kept the Vaegir Guard name, even though they in effect are ranked as sergeants, and you'll also note that the Vaegir and Swadian Sharpshooters are in different places in the hierarchy. I'll keep up these small differences with the other factions as well - but I won't change the structure that's already present in Native. it's a good building block.

Well on that note, essentially a vaegir marksman is the equal of a swadian sharpshooter or so to speak. I think that would merit changing the name of the vaegir sharpshooter, also because of what you mentioned in being different places in the hierarchy.

As for the nord troop tree, may i suggest finding other names, instead of 'veteran'. To me its just too plain, and doesnt really play into being unique at all.

 

[Zandman]

Well on that note, essentially a vaegir marksman is the equal of a swadian sharpshooter or so to speak. I think that would merit changing the name of the vaegir sharpshooter, also because of what you mentioned in being different places in the hierarchy.

As for the nord troop tree, may i suggest finding other names, instead of 'veteran'. To me its just too plain, and doesnt really play into being unique at all.

I agree on the first point. That's one thing I've found to be... problematic myself. I'll look into it and see if I can find a few new words for "sharpshooter".
Feel free to drop me some suggestions.

About the second point... well, the original spine of my troop tree is almost identical (there will be a few level/equipment tweaks), to the Native troop tree, and I've already decided not to mess with that. If Native tells me that Nords go from archer to veteran archer, then the javelin throwers must do the same. That's the only new "veteran" I've added - and you also have the plain Nord Veteran, so... I guess the Nords are comfortable with the term "veteran".

 

[Gwalchmai]

What always kinda bugged me was the discrepancy between Veterans especially with Vaegirs and Nords. Try setting a Vaegir Veteran up against a Nord Veteran and guess who wins 90 percent. To my eye, if Vaegir Veterans are the seasoned, battle-hardened soldiers of the Vaegir kingdom, they aren't good for much at all. That's why I'd suggest giving them a noncommisioned officer - like rank - like Corporal/Korpral or something

 

[Halcyon]

What always kinda bugged me was the discrepancy between Veterans especially with Vaegirs and Nords. Try setting a Vaegir Veteran up against a Nord Veteran and guess who wins 90 percent. To my eye, if Vaegir Veterans are the seasoned, battle-hardened soldiers of the Vaegir kingdom, they aren't good for much at all. That's why I'd suggest giving them a noncommisioned officer - like rank - like Corporal/Korpral or something

In this case 'veteran' is used differently. Its like saying a person whos been at war for 1 month and has seen a few skirmishes is a veteran. Altogether it would make more sense to scratch the veteran denomination entirely. However that also entirely up to zandman.

I still think that making the tier names unique to each faction gives it a better feel. Either way ill download your mod and see what its like.

Cheers.

 

[Zandman]

What always kinda bugged me was the discrepancy between Veterans especially with Vaegirs and Nords. Try setting a Vaegir Veteran up against a Nord Veteran and guess who wins 90 percent. To my eye, if Vaegir Veterans are the seasoned, battle-hardened soldiers of the Vaegir kingdom, they aren't good for much at all. That's why I'd suggest giving them a noncommisioned officer - like rank - like Corporal/Korpral or something

In this case 'veteran' is used differently. Its like saying a person whos been at war for 1 month and has seen a few skirmishes is a veteran. Altogether it would make more sense to scratch the veteran denomination entirely. However that also entirely up to zandman.

I still think that making the tier names unique to each faction gives it a better feel. Either way ill download your mod and see what its like.

Cheers.

I'll take everything into consideration, guys - you make some really strong points here.
One thing that I just noticed when I checked my troop tree notes, is that I've typed an error in two of my highest-ranked Nord soldiers. They were never meant to be called "veteran" anything in the first place, but HEAVY Swordsmen and HEAVY Axemen. That's fixed now.

Also, there are already some differences present in the existing (Native) troop structure. You also have that "trained" denomination, which is just as vague as "veteran". Sure it COULD be interpreted as "trained-but-haven't-seen-a-lot-of-real-combat-yet," but just when do you go from that to "veteran" - and what do the different factions see as "veteran"? For example: I'm sure a Nord wouldn't call you "veteran" unless you've cleft at least a dozen skulls and plucked some arrows out of your eye socket, but those Khergit would probably grant you the same title if you rode near a battlefield and threw a twig at a suspicious-looking tree.

Lots to think about, then - but I wanna do it properly, so I'll just have to think of new and (hopefully) exciting denominations.
How many synonyms can one have for "sharpshooter"? 

 

[Halcyon]

Lots to think about, then - but I wanna do it properly, so I'll just have to think of new and (hopefully) exciting denominations.
How many synonyms can one have for "sharpshooter"? 

Unfortunately not many. this is where creativity comes in. I would say just name them using an allusion to something if you cant come up with names, Like Vaegir Eagle eye, Deadshot, deadeye, Master archer,sniper,sharpshooter,marksman? Perfect shot, one-eye, ranger.. Stuff like that.

 

[The Mercenary]

Mmkay...

Looks interesting, are you using the mod system or just editing files mostly?

Also, a lot of this looks like some of what I'm aiming to do on my own mod, so when you rlease it can you release the changes you made to the python code so other people can add your stuff in fast?

P.S. If you want to do some coding on my mod at all you're welcome btw, it's about expanding Calradia and adding new realms but also with as many other cool tweaks as we can pack in.

Nope - not using the mod system at all.
It sounded beautiful and interesting, but when I discovered I had to learn Python and sort of become a programmer overnight... not a chance. Even installing in and using it seemed like a chore to me - I'm too old and too uninterested in programming to do it (I wish I weren't).

So I'm using the Item Editor to add and tweak equipment and the Troop Editor to do the rest. Other tweaks will be done by editing the .txt files.

But I could be interested in contributing to your mod if at all possible.
Where can I find info about it?

The mod system is very useful, actually. You can learn how to use it very rapidly.

As for the sharpshooter things, you could simply use Sniper, Marksman, Sharpshooter. Rhodoks, Swadians, Vaegirs. Don't need it for Khergits and Nords. After that, you can simply add tags like Expert.

your idea is great, and ill be looking forward to it.

Just one suggestion, i believe it would be better for each faction to keep its uniqueness and difference in culture if you will. So for example instead of having a vaegir captain and a swadian captain, give the vaegir or swadian captain a different denomination, just so it iss different and you dont see "faction name" captains running around everywhere. It would seem to much the same.

hope you take into consideration what i said. either way Good luck hope it comes out well.

Native uses the generic names. It seems like he's trying to keep similar to native, just expand the troops trees a bit.
Also, you may wish to check out my sub-forum.

 

[Zandman]

The mod system is very useful, actually. You can learn how to use it very rapidly.

Yeah - I hear people saying that, but I have no idea what the heck it's for.
Is it some kind of set of commands for Python, which is a programming language? Eh? Remember - I'm not a programmer. These things are as Greek to me as I'm sure... Greek is to you. 

Initially, I thought it would be something similar to Troop Editor or Item Editor (or even BRF Edit), only more complex: being able to build quests, make maps, create troops, etc., with a simple interface and then bake everything into one "package" and thus make a new mod. After all the hype, I thought that must be it. But when I downloaded it and started to read the instructions, I must admit I failed to see the point. I really, really want to make mods - but not enough to start learning programming to achieve it (that's a pretty big sacrifice to make for just playing around with troops and weapons). Like I said - last time I did programming was probably in the 80s, on my Commodore 64.
If it's about learning a completely new 3D program, sure - I can do that. If it's about learning to texture in a new way, sure - I can do that. That's related to things I've done before, and I'm clever enough to learn most things in half the time it takes most people, but... this is terra incognita, I have no basis for knowledge at all.


So what I need to know is:
Why do I need it for my specific mod, and how would I use it? What could it give me; how could it make life easier for me?

 

[The Mercenary]

The mod system is very useful, actually. You can learn how to use it very rapidly.

Yeah - I hear people saying that, but I have no idea what the heck it's for.
Is it some kind of set of commands for Python, which is a programming language? Eh? Remember - I'm not a programmer. These things are as Greek to me as I'm sure... Greek is to you. 

Initially, I thought it would be something similar to Troop Editor or Item Editor (or even BRF Edit), only more complex: being able to build quests, make maps, create troops, etc., with a simple interface and then bake everything into one "package" and thus make a new mod. After all the hype, I thought that must be it. But when I downloaded it and started to read the instructions, I must admit I failed to see the point. I really, really want to make mods - but not enough to start learning programming to achieve it (that's a pretty big sacrifice to make for just playing around with troops and weapons). Like I said - last time I did programming was probably in the 80s, on my Commodore 64.
If it's about learning a completely new 3D program, sure - I can do that. If it's about learning to texture in a new way, sure - I can do that. That's related to things I've done before, and I'm clever enough to learn most things in half the time it takes most people, but... this is terra incognita, I have no basis for knowledge at all.


So what I need to know is:
Why do I need it for my specific mod, and how would I use it? What could it give me; how could it make life easier for me?

Coding is extraordinarily straightforward, allows major changes in game mechanics, and allows major additions. For example, Mirathei added formations and shield bash; Chel created the morale system, all thanks to Python.

 

[Halcyon]

The mod system is very useful, actually. You can learn how to use it very rapidly.

Yeah - I hear people saying that, but I have no idea what the heck it's for.
Is it some kind of set of commands for Python, which is a programming language? Eh? Remember - I'm not a programmer. These things are as Greek to me as I'm sure... Greek is to you. 

Initially, I thought it would be something similar to Troop Editor or Item Editor (or even BRF Edit), only more complex: being able to build quests, make maps, create troops, etc., with a simple interface and then bake everything into one "package" and thus make a new mod. After all the hype, I thought that must be it. But when I downloaded it and started to read the instructions, I must admit I failed to see the point. I really, really want to make mods - but not enough to start learning programming to achieve it (that's a pretty big sacrifice to make for just playing around with troops and weapons). Like I said - last time I did programming was probably in the 80s, on my Commodore 64.
If it's about learning a completely new 3D program, sure - I can do that. If it's about learning to texture in a new way, sure - I can do that. That's related to things I've done before, and I'm clever enough to learn most things in half the time it takes most people, but... this is terra incognita, I have no basis for knowledge at all.


So what I need to know is:
Why do I need it for my specific mod, and how would I use it? What could it give me; how could it make life easier for me?

Coding is extraordinarily straightforward, allows major changes in game mechanics, and allows major additions. For example, Mirathei added formations and shield bash; Chel created the morale system, all thanks to Python.

On the other hand you dont necessarily need the module system to create a great mod. (Thanks merc for yours) the troop editor, item editor and brf tools, are great places to get started. Module system just grants you the ability to modify the game more, just like merc said. Also from what i hear, basic python isnt that hard. All you really need is some dedicated time to learn your away around it, and then build up from there.

 

[Zandman]

Coding is extraordinarily straightforward, allows major changes in game mechanics, and allows major additions. For example, Mirathei added formations and shield bash; Chel created the morale system, all thanks to Python.

There is shield bash?
Damn, that sounds wonderful - people in here seem to have been talking about shield bash for ages...

Those two features you mentioned aren't something you normally do if you just learned coding: now I don't know Mirathei and Chel, but I'd bet good money they aren't new to this.
So it goes without saying that such things are way beyond my capacities and remain so for some time, even if I start learning now - in fact, it seems to me that I'd probably spend a lot of time learning the basic things that Item Editor, Troop Editor and BRF Edit do for me now, in a much neater way.

So... I'll finish the troop trees and build the spine of my mini-mod first, and then - if I can ever find the time - I will see if this system can provide some exciting opportunities for me.

 

[The Mercenary]

Coding is extraordinarily straightforward, allows major changes in game mechanics, and allows major additions. For example, Mirathei added formations and shield bash; Chel created the morale system, all thanks to Python.

There is shield bash?
Damn, that sounds wonderful - people in here seem to have been talking about shield bash for ages...

Those two features you mentioned aren't something you normally do if you just learned coding: now I don't know Mirathei and Chel, but I'd bet good money they aren't new to this.
So it goes without saying that such things are way beyond my capacities and remain so for some time, even if I start learning now - in fact, it seems to me that I'd probably spend a lot of time learning the basic things that Item Editor, Troop Editor and BRF Edit do for me now, in a much neater way.

So... I'll finish the troop trees and build the spine of my mini-mod first, and then - if I can ever find the time - I will see if this system can provide some exciting opportunities for me.

Yup. We included shield bash, formations, and morale. We're also working on spearwalls, as in spears kill horses if the horses charge them. All of these are do-able only with the module system. Good luck with your mini-mod.

 

[Zandman]

Thanks a lot.
I've actually come quite far now - only a couple of troop trees remain to be sorted out, and then the biggest phase is complete.

But is the shield bash code released by itself somewhere? And if so - would it be hard to implement?