Yet another one........

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Serann

Master Knight
Splinty, how are you going to find the right people to be admins, if the ones you see fit aren't going to be?

Because either you want to be an admin and you say yes, when asked.
Or you don't and you say no.

According to that logic, we would have to find people who under torture would refuse to become admins and
then hypnotize them into becoming admins after all.

Though if we could hypnotize people, we wouldn't have to kill time with boring ol' PW.

Then again, that's just you. I'm only here to be the forum's poltergeist.
 

Splintert

Count
M&BWB
(Reply to Bern)
Your experience in other games is completely irrelevant, unless you just happen to be running other PW-like things. It's like saying Native admins do the same things as a PW admin.

My generalization is more accurate than you'd like to believe. The fact that you tried to stare down your nose at me in the first place because you thought I had never been an admin is direct proof of it. You're using your leadership positions elsewhere to place yourself above other people. Thank you for proving my point.

Admining is a volunteer job. They do not get paid (if they do, then you're wasting money). Why do they do it? Out of the good of their heart? Because they want to help other people enjoy their game? No. It's so the people who are higher up in the organization look at them better. It's so they can exert power and control over the players. It's so they can feel good about themselves. It is not for the mod, it is not for the players, it is for themselves.



Serann said:
Splinty, how are you going to find the right people to be admins, if the ones you see fit aren't going to be?

Because either you want to be an admin and you say yes, when asked.
Or you don't and you say no.

According to that logic, we would have to find people who under torture would refuse to become admins and
then hypnotize them into becoming admins after all.

Though if we could hypnotize people, we wouldn't have to kill time with boring ol' PW.

Then again, that's just you. I'm only here to be the forum's poltergeist.

When I ran Oprec_PW back years ago I had a guy named reyman apply for admin. I denied him. He whined like an 8 year old who dropped his ice cream cone. It was deplorable. Why would I even consider giving someone like that power to manage people? The best way to find good admins is to open your eyes and look around.
 

BernTheLost

Regular
lol i wasnt looking down on you, i was stating that under the circumstances of not being an admin (now corrected ofc) that you could not under that situation be in the knowledge of how it is as an admin. so tell me how that is me looking down on you? rofl
 

Splintert

Count
M&BWB
Wording is everything. If you didn't want to sound condescending then you have to slow down with the "lol", "rofl" and increase the reading level of your writing by 6 or so years worth.

Point of the matter is, servers have been using your system of organized administrative hierarchy for a long time now, and I've watched servers crumble again and again due to horrifying admin selection.
 

BernTheLost

Regular
bad admins dont last long in our team. put simply. also if you want to be taken seriously i suggest you stop trying to make this personal and being offensive. put simply.
 

Splintert

Count
M&BWB
17th_Bern said:
bad admins dont last long in our team. put simply. also if you want to be taken seriously i suggest you stop trying to make this personal and being offensive. put simply.

So you're going to clone every other server that has failed in the past 2 years and expect different results?

Have you ever played Far Cry 3?
 

Dark_Hamlet

Master Knight
popcorn_yes.gif
 

Prade

Sergeant Knight
Telling Splintert that he has no Admin experience..... xD

Anyway i totally agree with everything Splintert is saying right here. All of the ****loads happened because of admins, not because of players or technical difficulties but because of the admins.

It would be a good idea to do a new server, totally different but i guess the community is not ready yet. (And Damn you Serann i liked your babel idea, create this server now !)
 

BernTheLost

Regular
you want to know whats different in the admins who complain about being overworked and your view on admins?

Our admins don't spend most of their time just standing around. they actually are constantly at work just ask them yourself.


"I spent more time standing around doing nothing than dealing with complaints"

i'm not saying your lazy, i'm saying that you were lucky, our admins actually do deal with complaints and when they're not they are running events. our team actually works.
that's the difference, that's why we work and yours failed and died. because we don't take on admins who don't work. and we don't let admins sit around doing nothing. theres always something they can and should be doing.
 

Splintert

Count
M&BWB
A slight misinterpretation there, my apologies for not elaborating.

I was standing around doing nothing because I had already cleared out the complaints.
 

Serann

Master Knight
You know, looking at the bigger picture, it's kind of funny how everyone seems to take the endurent and annoying work of admins for granted.

Oh, I am not saying that they should be appreciated.

I am saying that playing a videogame that requires a human supervisor is pretty stupid.
In every other game, admins mostly just play and only intervene when needed.
Except maybe in EVE, where you get to sell your soul so you can pay money. Pretty much the worst deal you can make.

I am sure there was somewhere I was going with this....

Maybe that you should try having a server without admins? No, that wasn't it....

I will remember, I'm sure, just hold on.
 

BernTheLost

Regular
Serann said:
You know, looking at the bigger picture, it's kind of funny how everyone seems to take the endurent and annoying work of admins for granted.

Oh, I am not saying that they should be appreciated.

I am saying that playing a videogame that requires a human supervisor is pretty stupid.
In every other game, admins mostly just play and only intervene when needed.
Except maybe in EVE, where you get to sell your soul so you can pay money. Pretty much the worst deal you can make.

I am sure there was somewhere I was going with this....

Maybe that you should try having a server without admins? No, that wasn't it....

I will remember, I'm sure, just hold on.

i support this. all admins are bad! and are a cancerous mole on the backside of the PW mod and community! i say! "Away with you vile beggars!"
 

Thompson

Recruit
Splintert said:
(Reply to Bern)
Your experience in other games is completely irrelevant, unless you just happen to be running other PW-like things. It's like saying Native admins do the same things as a PW admin.

My generalization is more accurate than you'd like to believe. The fact that you tried to stare down your nose at me in the first place because you thought I had never been an admin is direct proof of it. You're using your leadership positions elsewhere to place yourself above other people. Thank you for proving my point.

Admining is a volunteer job. They do not get paid (if they do, then you're wasting money). Why do they do it? Out of the good of their heart? Because they want to help other people enjoy their game? No. It's so the people who are higher up in the organization look at them better. It's so they can exert power and control over the players. It's so they can feel good about themselves. It is not for the mod, it is not for the players, it is for themselves.



Serann said:
Splinty, how are you going to find the right people to be admins, if the ones you see fit aren't going to be?

Because either you want to be an admin and you say yes, when asked.
Or you don't and you say no.

According to that logic, we would have to find people who under torture would refuse to become admins and
then hypnotize them into becoming admins after all.

Though if we could hypnotize people, we wouldn't have to kill time with boring ol' PW.

Then again, that's just you. I'm only here to be the forum's poltergeist.

When I ran Oprec_PW back years ago I had a guy named reyman apply for admin. I denied him. He whined like an 8 year old who dropped his ice cream cone. It was deplorable. Why would I even consider giving someone like that power to manage people? The best way to find good admins is to open your eyes and look around.

How can you possibly claim to know the motives of each and every admin that has ever walked the servers of PW? To do so is baseless and to use a vast and sweeping generalisation, based purely on your limited experience and personal prejudices. You cannot say that admins do what they do to "exert power and control over players" without evidence and claim it to be fact. To do so is, quite frankly, laughable. You come here with irrefutable proof that all admins do it out of power-crazed lunacy and I might just take you seriously. Or was that another one of your exaggerations?

Your continual lack of evidence for your accusations makes any point you make as good as void. You say that admins now-a-days demand to be treated like gods. I say give me proof. All you have provided so far is so much bluster and hot air.

As for your comment that Bern's experience in other games is "completely irrelevant', and that if it were otherwise it would be "like saying Native admins do the same thing as a PW admin", I argue that your premise, on which you base this statement, is mistaken. Bern was referring to running communities, not administrating servers. You are right, administrating Native servers is not at all like administrating PW servers. All an admin on a Native server has to do, by and large, is mechanical and repetitive kicking and banning for offenses such as team-killing, racism or what have you. PW administration requires a a great deal more judgement and decision-making. If a PW admin isn't dealing with some problem or another the for entire time that they are online (in the capacity of an admin) then they are not doing their job sufficiently or correctly. The community will always contain rule-breakers, which require non-stop attention from admins. If they aren't dealing with complaints or offenses of some kind, then they should be enhancing the roleplay experience in some way (hosting tournaments, quest-giving, etc.), not "standing around doing nothing".

*Note* I would just add, for clarity, that when I refer to your experience as limited, it is not meant as an insult or condescension, it is merely to illustrate that any experience, in any field, regardless of its quality or magnitude, is limited.

 

Erk

Knight
I thought this was a discussion about rules, not about manners or who is more bad ass as an admin.

Maybe you guys can post some suggestions for rulesets? Maybe then we could debate about them and something could come out of it. Some of us discussants have played this for quite a while (admin, players, map designing, server running...). I suppose something useful could come out of a discussion around actual rules.

Right? :smile:
 

Splintert

Count
M&BWB
How can I claim to know the motives of every admin?

Because after an admin becomes an admin, he no longer plays the mod. He leaves the mod as soon as his server is taken down, or goes to a different server to apply for admin.

Irrefutable proof? Look at this forum. Go back through all of the pages of threads that have been created. Read them.

Running a server is little more than a few clicks here, and a few lines copy-pasted into a server config. Server owners don't have to create maps, there's dozens of people to do that for them. Server owners don't have to create external forums that no one uses (except to apply for admin). Server owners don't have to run a bank (which completely ruins the economy, as I've argued before in other threads). Server owners don't even have to admin their own server. All of your so-called owner responsibilities are made up, none of them are necessary to succeed, and most of them are directly harmful to long term success.

Besides, I'm merely attempting to argue for change. Bern has already told us that he's perfectly willing to march his regiment of admins straight into the MG nest that is PW.



Erk said:
I thought this was a discussion about rules, not about manners or who is more bad ass as an admin.

Maybe you guys can post some suggestions for rulesets? Maybe then we could debate about them and something could come out of it. Some of us discussants have played this for quite a while (admin, players, map designing, server running...). I suppose something useful could come out of a discussion around actual rules.

Right? :smile:

Unfortunately no change to rules, map design, or players will happen until the admins change. They control everything, no matter what anyone has to say differently.
 

Erk

Knight
Ehm well, Splintert, that sounds rather pessimistic. I want to believe that server owners would actually want to try a well debated rule set. Or not, some people seem to be in the business just to be little gods. But still, wort trying? May I ask you, Splintert, whether you would agree with my suggested rule set or what would be yours?
 

Splintert

Count
M&BWB
Your ruleset is better than most of the copy-pasted things that come out of owner's mouths. I don't know if it's enough in the right places though, I'll have to dig up some past threads to see if there's anything anyone thought of that yours isn't covering, or that you thought of something that anyone else has not.
 

Dark_Hamlet

Master Knight
Splintert said:
Running a server is little more than a few clicks here, and a few lines copy-pasted into a server config. Server owners don't have to create maps, there's dozens of people to do that for them. Server owners don't have to create external forums that no one uses (except to apply for admin). Server owners don't have to run a bank (which completely ruins the economy, as I've argued before in other threads). Server owners don't even have to admin their own server. All of your so-called owner responsibilities are made up, none of them are necessary to succeed, and most of them are directly harmful to long term success.

  This.
 

S0mebody

Sergeant at Arms
WB
Reading.

Will probably reply at some juncture, some very interesting points have been raised, yes some are contentious and worthy of a flaming arrow of one kind or another.

For now:

Don't generali[s/z]e. It will fail every time.
 
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