Yes, spears, again

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Grank

Sergeant Knight at Arms
WBNWVC
changing distance of the Yari by gripping it at several points on the spear.
This is indeed useful, but I can't imagine a control scheme for it in the game.

such a pushback is very artificial and unrealistic und b) would not work under game conditions. A), you cannot or should not really push back adversaries in single combat.
Yes, but OP keeps insisting that pushback the true way to fix spears. I've explained over and over how an unavoidable pushback is a bad idea, not just because it's straight up fantasy nonsense, but also because it does nothing but create a frustrating stalemate (which he thinks is good for some reason).

It's also ironic that he referenced a Chinese general for his expertise in real combat, but keep ignoring realism "because the game is not 100% realistic anyway". That general was right about spears. It's an amazing weapon, because it's fast to stab, can change direction quickly due to leverage, and is long. Those are the properties of wielding spears two-handed, and most of Chinese polearms are held two-handed, so of course the general would have that opinion about spears.

Which part of the combat is "real" and not "artificial"?
Just because the game is not 100% realistic doesn't mean we should give up on realism completely.

We should aim to be as close to realism as possible. We won't reach it due to technical and gameplay limitations, sure, but not even trying to be realistic and going straight for fantasy physics is a stupid idea.

They're the anvil. Why were spearmen the anvil when there certainly were other types of infantry around? Because they last a heckuva lot longer.
Because spears were fast at stabbing and that speed scared people, not because people kept throwing themselves into pike formations and get physically pushed back by a stick (instead of getting penetrated by the pointy end) and does nothing about it, like grabbing the damn thing.
 

geala

Sergeant at Arms
A broad swathes of errors above, but to point out just one:

...


All it does is basically allow a 2-meter long weapon to be used at the speed of a stabbing dagger. I guess that doesn't count as "artificial"?

It is artificial. But it counters one very artificial hard coded game feature, the death-wish advance of any NPCs towards enemies. A spear is a fast stabbing weapon, however on a distance. To simulate this you had to have NPCs who kept distance, to avoid a piece of steel in their guts. That's not in the game. The artificial solution of the distance problem of mods like "Spear Rework" or similar is in my opinion the best we can do. A physical pushback is not such a great solution because it does not lead to the end of fights.

BTW with "Spear Rework" you can kill a NPC with a shield. I use RBM AI module, so the NPCs are generally block world champions. You have to really strain yourself to get them when they lower the shield, but because of the faster speed and higher close distance damage of spears it's possible. Try it, it's a bad surprise for the pesky sword-and-shield or mace-and-shield adversaries in the arena. I would say it's an almost even fight if you have the spear and shield, although I have to admit that the player with sword or mace has a slight advantage against NPCs with spear and shield (tyi, I'm not very good at combat, I cannot block with weapons and I never play MP). It's also hilarious to kill twohanded NPCs with stabs from the distance.
 
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nereid

Sergeant
This is indeed useful, but I can't imagine a control scheme for it in the game.
You could use the switch weapon mode key to switch between a shortened or long mode. Thus you could allow faster stabs, at the cost of range and maybe some damage (which would imply that the spear in shortened mode would deliver normal stab damage). The longer mode could be the current mode.
 

Grank

Sergeant Knight at Arms
WBNWVC
You could use the switch weapon mode key to switch between a shortened or long mode. Thus you could allow faster stabs, at the cost of range and maybe some damage (which would imply that the spear in shortened mode would deliver normal stab damage). The longer mode could be the current mode.
Yes but that key is already used for spear brace or throwing mode in some spears. Making a specialized weapon flag that's exclusive to those two seems to be an awkward solution. I for one really like the throwing spear, and if this grip switch feature is implemented, I'd like the throwing spear to have it too.

One way to make it seamless and realistic is to make the switch automatic I suppose? When a spear thrust gets a contact at a shorter range, it can still deliver damage and the player's hands will seamlessly animate to the "short grip", instead of bouncing off weakly like it is now. This and increased stab recovery speed might be enough to fix two handed spears. It could be made into a perk too if it turns out to be somewhat OP.
 

nereid

Sergeant
Yes but that key is already used for spear brace or throwing mode in some spears. Making a specialized weapon flag that's exclusive to those two seems to be an awkward solution. I for one really like the throwing spear, and if this grip switch feature is implemented, I'd like the throwing spear to have it too.

One way to make it seamless and realistic is to make the switch automatic I suppose? When a spear thrust gets a contact at a shorter range, it can still deliver damage and the player's hands will seamlessly animate to the "short grip", instead of bouncing off weakly like it is now. This and increased stab recovery speed might be enough to fix two handed spears. It could be made into a perk too if it turns out to be somewhat OP.
Darn, forgot about the spear brace feature. Currently I do not really use it, as most lances are too short for it and the troops usually do not brace :xf-wink:
 

Horked

Yeah because in reality no other weapon was used, sure.
Actually, you are right about this. At a certain late point, near the end of melee weapons in war, spears was the main weapon used by vast majority of soldiers. They also had a sword but this was a "backup" if you will or part of the standard gear. Today we have the rifle (spear) and the sidearm service pistol (sword)

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When gunpowder took over. Spears (pikes) was still somewhat useful due to heavy use of cavelry.

Its AAALL about reach and range. Even after gunpowder take over.

Ref: https://www.quora.com/Is-the-spear-the-most-superior-melee-weapon - the points made here can be made in a similar way when comparing a rifle to a pistol, that is spear (rifle) for medium to close range combat and sword (pistol) for backup and ultra CQB (Close Quater Battle)


TR-2.jpg

For the sake of argument: :p
Ultra CQB melee weapons. Spear, sword - and a knife or something even shorter than a sword.
 
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kweassa

Sergeant at Arms
It is artificial. But it counters one very artificial hard coded game feature, the death-wish advance of any NPCs towards enemies. A spear is a fast stabbing weapon, however on a distance. To simulate this you had to have NPCs who kept distance, to avoid a piece of steel in their guts. That's not in the game. The artificial solution of the distance problem of mods like "Spear Rework" or similar is in my opinion the best we can do. A physical pushback is not such a great solution because it does not lead to the end of fights.
Most of the infantry spears in the game aren't long enough to cause "not lead to the end of the fight."

Like mentioned, the infantry shieldwall in the game ain't exactly the Macedonian syntagma with a 5~6 meter sarissa. At best it's around 2-meters with the grip around the lower 1/3rd of the shaft. The protrusion when fully extended is barely around 2-meters. Even with a pretty long spear, it's very difficult to land a satisfying/safe couched lance against infantry unless the lance itself starts reaching over 240 cm, because anything shorter and the spear-tip doesn't even really protrude further out than the horse's head.

From a 1v1 standpoint, with no direct increase to the thrust speed the spears are already entirely possible to side-step and evade, not to mention, even if you just block/parry, the recovery is fast enough to attempt to walk inside the range. The current problem is after being blocked/parried/shielded, the distance where the opponent walks in like 1 or 2 steps and the spear is at the "nope. no attack animation canceling" threshold. What the pushback does (or will do) is extend and reset the range to the point where if the opponent block/parry/shields the spear and walks in, the next spear strike will land a hit and cause animation cancel -- but with any kind of weapon that's at least more than 100~120 long (plenty of one-handed swords, almost all of other, shorter polearms), it's a range enough to attempt an attack.

With the pushback and extended distance, from the opponent's perspective, unlike before the spear will most certainly land a hit hard. You can't just keep blocking and walking in because THAT'S what's gonna cause the "unending combat." So in order to win, you block the spear, and then immediately lunge inside at a dicey distance, with the next spear already primed and initiating. Either you hit with the tip of your weapon, or the spear hits you. Or, you anticipate the next spear will attempt to push you immediately back again, so try a side-step this time. If you deem all of this is too risky, and just stay at the distance, and the combat "doesn't end" because you find it difficult to go in and don't want to take any risks -- because it's not easy-peasy like it was before -- IS THIS NOT EXACTLY HOW IT SHOULD BE?

Of course, if someone has a lot shorter weapon, it's gonna feel pretty "unending" since no matter how well you block/shield/parry, your weapon won't be long enough to attempt to land an attack before the next spear thrust (oh gee.. maybe that's what it feels like when you're holding a spear and the opponent has a shield, currently?) -- but again, is this not exactly how it should be as well?

...

From a group formation standpoint, the spear only targets one person at a time. It's gonna keep at bay SOME of the attackers coming in (as opposed to NONE previously), but some will still walk in and attempt to attack, and do some damage. The "can't close in at all" problem will only happen against two-handed pikemen with actually a lot longer range. Oh gee, so difficult to counter. But maybe that's why there's this thing called "bows/crossbows" in the game.


BTW with "Spear Rework" you can kill a NPC with a shield. I use RBM AI module, so the NPCs are generally block world champions. You have to really strain yourself to get them when they lower the shield, but because of the faster speed and higher close distance damage of spears it's possible. Try it, it's a bad surprise for the pesky sword-and-shield or mace-and-shield adversaries in the arena. I would say it's an almost even fight if you have the spear and shield, although I have to admit that the player with sword or mace has a slight advantage against NPCs with spear and shield (tyi, I'm not very good at combat, I cannot block with weapons and I never play MP). It's also hilarious to kill twohanded NPCs with stabs from the distance.
I've tried it long ago, and deleted it long ago, because that's not a spear I'm wielding.

I already told you the mod does not address the main problem at all -- the distance factor. All it does is make spears OP by making them 2-meter long weapons that operate like a dagger. People disenfranchised with how the spears operate in this game -- or rather, people who really like the spear as a weapon -- aren't complaining just because it's hard to fight with them. They're complaining because the spear can't fight like a spear. And like mentioned, the main strengths of the spear is the ability to enforce a reach advantage.

How does the spear rework and RBM address that? --- It doesn't.

When someone walks in complaining their tank is not viable in the game because it's too fragile and the cannon is too weak, you don't slap on a wing and make it a fighter jet and claim that's fixed anything. Oh sure, giving it wings is going to make it a lot more "viable" in the game, but is that viability done the right way? I think not.

That's what the current "reworks" are.
 

CrazyElf

Sergeant
Yes, but OP keeps insisting that pushback the true way to fix spears. I've explained over and over how an unavoidable pushback is a bad idea, not just because it's straight up fantasy nonsense, but also because it does nothing but create a frustrating stalemate (which he thinks is good for some reason).

Yeah I would agree with this assessment. Spears need a major buff, but a pushback is not the ideal solution.


They should be fast in terms of thrust speed and deadly in terms of damage output.
 

Bluko88

Regular
That fear of "reach" should be in the game. But it's simply not there.
Oh it's there.

I absolutely fear Falxes, Billhooks, Glaives, etc. I just don't fear spears or pikes, unless I happen to be mounted. In which case I do. Or a horseman is attempting to ride me down with a spear.


The problem is spears/pikes are totally non-threatening on foot. Sad thing is it's probably easy to fix them, but it would require some work at this point. So I don't think TW is going to do it (mostly because it involves adding animations/new damage models).

Here's what I would do though:

1. Allow all two-handed polearms/spears/pikes to be "swing-able" on foot. (And make most any polearm two-handed without a shield, unless it's extremely short like a melee Javelin).​
I wouldn't make the damage as ridiculous as current swinging polearms, but it should be enough to actually punish anyone advancing on you who isn't blocking. Being able to make a "swing" would greatly help spearmen keep their distance/reach advantage.​
2. Add a stop effect for blocking thrusted attacks.
If you block a thrusted polearm attack it should stop you very briefly from moving. It should not be easy to close into a spearman's "no attack zone". You either need to skillfully evade their thrusts or flank them somehow. Charging straight into a spearman, even with your guard up, should not work.* The stop effect would also be vital to give the spearman time to re-position.​
*Unfortunately I fear this is why TW will never implement this. The A.I. has zero "self-preservation" so everyone just blindly charges til morale breaks. So the A.I. as is cannot cope with spears like this.​
3. Add a stun effect for received thrusted attacks.
I think this is already sort of in effect, but it should be a bit more pronounced. Getting hit by a thrust attack should leave you very vulnerable. This should be the spearman's greatest strength, not that they deal great damage - but that they allow allies to close in on enemies and finish them off. Spearman sort of work this way with cavalry. Adding this would greatly help them on foot and more successfully kill dismounted horseman too.​
As is spearman are a serious liability in melee combat, which is just wrong.​
No matter what the quality. A good hit, a glancing blow (too close), blocked, parried, chambered... once a thrusting attack makes physical contact in any form, the opponent will be pushed back to the slightly further than the full length of the weapon when extended in a thrust.

I think a push back effect is a bit too strong, maybe a slight stagger. Make the effect too strong and you can just repeatedly stab at someone with impunity. It needs to be just long to stop the enemy and give the spearman time to move and start next, but not so much it allows combos. The stab victim should have a chance to recover.

No more bullshi* where you just stabbed someone with a 2-meter spear, but the opponent is just damaged on the spot and then immediately walks two steps in and they're smack in front of you, please.

Yeah this is the worst. Tournaments/Practice Fights where you get stuck with a spear are just the worst. Even with kicking it's hard to score a meaningful hit cause everyone just shrugs off spear thrusts like nothing.

Please, do something about the spears. It's been almost two-decades this weapon was introduced into the game, without given any justice. If the spear can't become the "king," or a weapon to be feared (like the menavliton), at the least make it a weapon that's nothing to be scoffed at.

All we can do is dream or more likely wait for the right mod LOL
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KingEroc1st

Veteran
great post. too bad the devs won't read it or react to it... lol hope im wrong here but usually i'm not...

besides the push back i think another thing that can be buffed is the spear's "handling". honestly "handling" seems like kind of a useless stat in this game. doesn't seem to do much. as far as i'm aware it allows you to perform more consistent damage instead of a glancing hit or something. maybe i'm wrong. but i feel spears could use a little more handling so 1h can do something in close quarters. and personally i think 2h spears should get a massive thrust speed and handling increase.
i mean when General Qi was talking about a spear coming at you the speed of a shooting star, he's talking about a 2h thrust. and it can come quick one after another. imagine walking into a spear wall of that....

or they can pull a trick out of dark souls and make spears the only weapon you can attack with while holding block
 
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