[WWC18] Discussion Topic

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Gerard_de_reinee

Sergeant Knight
WBWF&S
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If we're supposed to play 7 rounds, I'm for reducing rounds' duration aswell. There's nothing wrong with reducing it a bit so as to avoid the waiting time that has always been present and 90% of that time nothing creative or worth watching happens. It's also gonna force teams to prepare better, do the proper drops and I believe it's simply going to feel much more competitive. All the action starts as the flag spawns anyway, so why not making the action happen faster?

Less pointless waiting, more competitive & better to watch. Consider it.
 

Apfel

Knight at Arms
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Merry Christmas!
as this tournament is 6v6 and the mappool for small and mixed maps feels kinda small im suggesting the map "Cathedral" to be added :smile:
Its quite new, created by me. Hope you give it a chance!
https://www.dropbox.com/s/z4latzxkibmzp5v/scn_multi_scene_Cathedral.sco?dl=0
code is
scn_multi_scene_Cathedral multi_scene_Cathedral 256 none none 0.000000 0.000000 100.000000 100.000000 -100.000000 0x00000001300389800003a4ea000058340000637a0000399b
0
0
outer_terrain_plain

 
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so after playing a scrim with those rules yesterday I gotta say I still dislike it.

playing only 1 map for 7 rounds per spawn gets really boring. If you consider that some tryhard sweats also scrim you play that map for like 40 rounds+ without having a change. Even maps I actually like playing will make me puke at some point. 14 rounds on one map is just boring to me. I'd rather play 2 maps even if u end up with 20 rounds. You'll be able to make use of more tactics since rounds actually matter in a ft3 system. Every round you lose or win can be the deciding one in certain matchups (nords - vaegirs i.e). In the 7 round format you get 6 rounds for a comeback which is also actually doable since theres no gold rewards for winning a round/killing people. the rulechange make it less competetive for me. I also don't see a reason to change the match format in the first place (I don't mind changing things up to try **** but this is meh).

You also don't have an open + closed map anymore. That means you can be stuck as inf on maps like field by the river or ruins; or as cav on sandi for an entire week. So on top of the map getting boring to play it's also cancer for your class. Playing 2 maps per match always made it possible that you have atleast 1 that each class is good/ fun to play on. With the current state of the game im not sure if it's a good idea to ruin that.
 

Charlini

Master Knight
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Thanks for adapting the gold one but gotta insist on the time cut.

Your aim is to test an attractive gamemode with 6v6 to see if it works out as you expect, and promote high-level entertainment for players and viewers. Yet you mention that the reasons of not reducing the time are to extend the competition[I understand you mean lenght of the rounds], invest on tactics and time for harassment and that infs who fight quick will benefit from this situation.

Even in 8v8, with 180 per round and flag at 2.20 in 90% of the rounds you wait on a safe spot for half of the round, the tactic sums up on camping the best spot possible, and once flag is up trade a few shots, wait for a mistake on the other team and make the engage with 1 minute left(Each round has a waiting time of 1-1:30 mins approx, depends on how long the round takes). Considering in 6v6 you're gonna meet quicker fights(You can't really choose pace of an engage) teams will wait even longer to force a fight with 45 secs on the clock or less, and I really don't think you want your players or viewers to wait for more than 60% of the round at all, specially being 7 rounds per set.

Tacticly, you're neglecting any iniciative as there's no point in taking risks but camping the safest spot and relying on a good flag spawn so that you adapt on setting up well for it. With 2 mins per round you actually invest a lot in tactics, moving quick to positions and contesting spots that you normally wouldn't with more time, as the other team may bet for something else, and meet fights in spots that normally wouldnt even be considered as both teams can be rotating through same path or one ambushing the other, this would actually give a lot more of tactical decisions and improvised ones, which may turn to be more interesting to watch than to watch the fights happen every round on the same spots and expect with 95% accuracy what's going to happen.

About harassment, I understand that archers need time to do damage, yet providing 30 secs for the initial move will force teams and specially cav to move&scout quickly, and this could handle archers an opportunity to provide early harass aswell taking their own iniciative-move, thing that you barely see in 8v8 as they go with the rest of the team to camp safest spot and stare at walls while nothing happens. After that they get 90 secs to rotate with the team and shoot through the fight, and multiple options come here to harass either splitting from your team or zoning out cav or simply following your team shotting as much as you can from a safe spot, thing which obviously you will be able to do while the fight happens, and with such few numbers a few good shots already can determine the outcome of a round. This Harassment stage also applies to cavs, setting in less time provides more activeness in scouting and contesting good places to positionate for possible engages and after that they'll have a similar situation than archers, 90 seconds to contest spots, positionate, harass and afterwards fight in a good pace, but not in a need of a rush. Providing more time for harass stage will likely result in no more action, but instead more waiting time as people won't take many risks, instead you'll get to presence mistakes that cause early deaths that can actually become a big advantatge as with fewer numbers it can easily determine the engage.



So either if I understand some of the points where you wanna keep the time, I don't see any bad-side on cutting down the time, and I think any player could prefer to lower it once the reasoning behind it is given thought. With that being said I suggest that you reconsider the decision, or at least test in different servers how 2 mins and 3 mins work separately, and decide afterwards, even an intermediate time between them could work better.
 

OurGloriousLeader

Grandmaster Knight
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People camp in safe spots because there's a 1/3 or 1/2 chance of where the flag will be so there's no point committing. If people knew in advance which flag spawn was going to happen that round, they could immediately take action but they'd still have time for options without being forced into an immediate fight like a reduced timer causes. A reduced timer does cut out the lack of action, but it also just solidifies the game into being played in one manner. Charlini is accurate in his description of what people do in the game, mostly, but I would think we'd want to open up options, not double down on it, although if you just want a fast paced tournament while trying out 6v6 it would likely be fine.
 
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If you think about it entirely from a viewer/casting perspective, I think the down time at the start of rounds gives the opportunity for commentators to analyse the previous round.
 

Apollo 🏹

Count
WB
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HKP said:
so after playing a scrim with those rules yesterday I gotta say I still dislike it.

playing only 1 map for 7 rounds per spawn gets really boring. If you consider that some tryhard sweats also scrim you play that map for like 40 rounds+ without having a change. Even maps I actually like playing will make me puke at some point. 14 rounds on one map is just boring to me. I'd rather play 2 maps even if u end up with 20 rounds. You'll be able to make use of more tactics since rounds actually matter in a ft3 system. Every round you lose or win can be the deciding one in certain matchups (nords - vaegirs i.e). In the 7 round format you get 6 rounds for a comeback which is also actually doable since theres no gold rewards for winning a round/killing people. the rulechange make it less competetive for me. I also don't see a reason to change the match format in the first place (I don't mind changing things up to try **** but this is meh).

You also don't have an open + closed map anymore. That means you can be stuck as inf on maps like field by the river or ruins; or as cav on sandi for an entire week. So on top of the map getting boring to play it's also cancer for your class. Playing 2 maps per match always made it possible that you have atleast 1 that each class is good/ fun to play on. With the current state of the game im not sure if it's a good idea to ruin that.
You can't really disagree with this tbh, the 7 rounds per set 1 map only is boring af for the players I wonder what it will be like for the viewers? (You could swap to old format, but keep your new changes :razz: )

I am really grateful for the tourney though  :party:
 

Topcat21

Veteran
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Free Agent thread? would help to see whos still active and without a team  :grin:

Also V grateful for hosting the tournament  :party:
 

Greedalicious

Grandmaster Knight
WB
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Flags being on a permanent rotation would be fun testing, some of the maps might need a rework though and the spawn rotation would have to be very public knowledge. Would give teams a chance to change setups between rounds depending on the flags too which would add something new(ish) to the scene.

As it is now, nothing happens before the flag spawns. The amount of times Ive said "no early game aggression" when commentating is beyond counting and it always ends up as a fight on the flag. I agree it gives the casters some time to discuss what happened in the last fight though, no preference for me.
As an archer I dont mind longer rounds, if I play infantry I prefer short rounds, if I play cav I dont really care, as a caster our current system is fine,maybe shave off a tiny bit, and as a commander i'd prefer either short or long rounds to make proper tactics.

Messing with the gold gain makes sense for such long sets but it'll take some time to get used to it. Then again I forget to upgrade anyway so  :roll:

Im up for commentating a few games and see how it looks. Just hmu if people are up for it
 

Aharo

Squire
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First of all, we wish you all the best for the upcoming holidays! For those who celebrate them, and of course for others as well :smile:

Thank you for the numerous suggestions in connection with the tournament. We will certainly refer to them all in due time. Before we start the competition, we will discuss everything thoroughly.
 

Gerard_de_reinee

Sergeant Knight
WBWF&S
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We got to play a match with 7 rounds per set and 2 maps, it's really boring with current time settings, even tho the match ends as one of the teams gets 8 rounds. I also can't see what's the point of having to play two maps against one team and then calling it two seperate matches. I'd make it 5 rounds as it is in the knockout stage. There is also the gold issue, it makes sense with 7 rounds, but again would have to be changed in the knockout stage, as we get to play less rounds?
 

Waljaaa

Squire
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What about just keeping the format we have right now but making the rounds 30s shorter ?
I feel like for casters theres enough time to really analyse things in between sets anyways.
This would make the matches a bit shorter.
If you use the 7 rounds per set you play 14 rounds per match which actually is not even shorter than most matches i've played so far in the past.
One-sided games very often end in like 12-0, 12-1 or 12-2 and the very close games end in 6-6, 7-6, 7-7 often aswell, in all these cases you play 14 rounds or less anyways.
Now I have to admit I haven't tested the format myself yet so, idk maybe someone who has tried it can confirm this?
 

Harman

Master Knight
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CarpeDiem said:
We got to play a match with 7 rounds per set and 2 maps, it's really boring with current time settings, even tho the match ends as one of the teams gets 8 rounds. I also can't see what's the point of having to play two maps against one team and then calling it two seperate matches. I'd make it 5 rounds as it is in the knockout stage. There is also the gold issue, it makes sense with 7 rounds, but again would have to be changed in the knockout stage, as we get to play less rounds?
+1

  • I think lowering the timer is worth trying if we want to play so many rounds per map in 6v6 format.
  • I guess we can count points for separate maps but I'd rather play those maps in one evening and threat them as a one "match". Extending group stage more than 3 weeks, when teams will most likely be unbalanced, will be extremely boring.
  • Also I think gold system should definitely be consistent throughout the tournament, so I would pick a format and gold system and stick to it for every map we play.
 

Tardet

French Toast
Count
NW
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Also I think gold system should definitely be consistent throughout the tournament, so I would pick a format and gold system and stick to it for every map we play.
Spot on.

Giving the players a new format with a different economy could definitely be a positive change on the scene. Getting them to familiarize themselves with such format, only to change it (even slightly) once reaching the playoffs however could be extremely risky. If you want your playoffs matches to be more interesting, having the group stage in Bo1 and the playoffs in Bo3 is a possibility, but with your current format, it might create rather long matches which could end up being a bit 'too much' for non-professional gamers.

Putting a lot of thought behind your map-poll, reworking already existing maps to give them more in-depth tactical possibilities, having the competitive map-poll as small as possible to force teams to specialize themselves on certain maps, and actually play on the actual map strengths instead of their own; are part of the ideas you can implement to make the whole things more competitive.

At the end of the day, no matter which decisions you end-up taking, this will probably be a step in the right direction and will require some further tweakings in order to be fully playable and provide the viewers with the most exciting experience possible.
 

WhiskeR

Recruit
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Hello!

Just wanted to make some quick statements regarding the tournament:

[list type=decimal]
[*]We are going to test some new in-game time settings. We are going to change the duration of the round from 3 minutes to 2 minutes.
The flags are going to be forced at 1:20. You can try these settings on the test server and tell us whether the overall gameplay has improved.

[*]In connection with the above, we also want to change the format of the games in group-phase to BO3 with 5 rounds per spawn to make the rounds even more dynamic.

[*]To balance a smaller number of rounds, we plan to increase the bonus combat gold and survival gold to 75%.
[*]Remember about our Discord server! You can join it by clicking HERE. Team Captains will have to be present at Discord during the tournament!
It's going to make the contact with the administration easier both now and during the event (not only for captains, but for all interested players).
[/list]

Have a nice day and don't forget to share your feedback with us!
 

Aharo

Squire
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WhiskeR said:
Hello!

Just wanted to make some quick statements regarding the tournament:

[list type=decimal]
[*]We are going to test some new in-game time settings. We are going to change the duration of the round from 3 minutes to 2 minutes.
The flags are going to be forced at 1:20. You can try these settings on the test server and tell us whether the overall gameplay has improved.

[*]In connection with the above, we also want to change the format of the games in group-phase to BO3 with 5 rounds per spawn to make the rounds even more dynamic.

[*]To balance a smaller number of rounds, we plan to increase the bonus combat gold and survival gold to 75%.
[*]Remember about our Discord server! You can join it by clicking HERE. Team Captains will have to be present at Discord during the tournament!
It's going to make the contact with the administration easier both now and during the event (not only for captains, but for all interested players).
[/list]

Have a nice day and don't forget to share your feedback with us!
nice post
 
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Am I the only one that finds 1:20 forced flag at 2 mins round time disgusting?
This means if you don't get the flag you'll end up pushing straight into the enemy team due to the lack of time to position your players. Since its also 6v6 2 vaegir archers on every somewhat open map will just pin you down and crossfire the **** outta you. Mercs also has 1:20 flag on the default cw server and it's straight up cancer. I don't understand why you're trying to lower the round time but I feel like 2 mins flag spawn or atleast like 1:45 is totally needed.
 

Apfel

Knight at Arms
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HKP said:
2 vaegir archers on every somewhat open map will just pin you down and crossfire the **** outta you
The key is not to play open maps, they arent that much fun in 6v6 anyway
 
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