SP - Economy Workshops shouldn't be revoked in case of war

[Mohza]

Hi, first congratulations to the devs for the game, I'm having a lot of fun. I hope my suggestion hasn't been made already, I couldn't find it :
I think we should keep out workshops even when we're at war with the faction where it's located, it's just too tedious and punitive to go back where we had them and rebuy them.
There should be a penalty, like having it not making profit while the war is going on, like in Warband, and maybe having to buy it back (remotely) for a fraction of the price.
It's very dissuasive to use them as it is, when in a faction often at war.

 

[Schoulayer]

It would make sense for a ruler to seize any of your known assets if you go to war with them, but perhaps there could be a way to own a workshop without it being known that the workshop is connected to you. As the leader of your kingdom, you'll be well known, but your companions may not be. Perhaps one of your more obscure companions could act as a middle man. The purchase of the workshop would be in your companion's name, and your companion would forward the profits from that workshop to you.

 

[vadeN]

but perhaps there could be a way to own a workshop without it being known that the workshop is connected to you ...Perhaps one of your more obscure companions could act as a middle man.

Just like in real life

I second this.

 

[Mohza]

It would make sense for a ruler to seize any of your known assets if you go to war with them, but perhaps there could be a way to own a workshop without it being known that the workshop is connected to you. As the leader of your kingdom, you'll be well known, but your companions may not be. Perhaps one of your more obscure companions could act as a middle man. The purchase of the workshop would be in your companion's name, and your companion would forward the profits from that workshop to you.

That's a good idea but I think it can be simpler, the city could seize the workshop during the war and give it back to you just after the war because relations would be more or less back to normal (and the city might need something like foreign investments etc - this would be "invisible" lore explanation anyway).

I guess the minimum thing I'm aksing for is that we can keep a track of what we owned so we can get it back.

 

[paganizer]

I definately support this. It's really annoying to lose all workshops because of war.
In my game I chose workshops as far away from my clan (khuzait) as possible, but eventually they got around to declaring war against them all at some point.
Solutions:
1. You could get them back after war
2. You could get a warning to sell them (annoying, but atleast it's not "poof")
3. Not lose them at all

 

[Earth Dragon]

I think that’s the balance of being an ally to a kingdom.

it’s not a bad system folks. It’s sensible, includes risk to one of the best money makers, and balances against players knowing the best spots for the best shops and having a guide to the game that lays it all out.

Good Sandbox play includes layers of unpredictability and risk vs reward decisions. Too many players view sandbox games as a way for them to be god of the game instead of the understanding that the game just has little restrictions on how you approach it. Cause and effect still needs to be included

 

[Jmrofchak]

I think that’s the balance of being an ally to a kingdom.

it’s not a bad system folks. It’s sensible, includes risk to one of the best money makers, and balances against players knowing the best spots for the best shops and having a guide to the game that lays it all out.

Good Sandbox play includes layers of unpredictability and risk vs reward decisions. Too many players view sandbox games as a way for them to be god of the game instead of the understanding that the game just has little restrictions on how you approach it. Cause and effect still needs to be included

I second this, the way you lose workshops makes sense when you think about it. When in war the enemy is trying to do anything possible to ruin you. Destroying the players economy while in a time of war is a smart move on their part. Why would they give it back right after war? It just doesn't make sense.

 

[Yangbang]

I'm fine with a enemy faction seizing your workshops. That's what war is. To make things not so terrible hard on the player in general. The start up cost of the workshops needs to be segmented. Like the overall cost of the workshop is fine, but as a huge down payment is kind of whack.

The workshop should be one mid size payment of, let's say 6k to 8k for the workshop itself and its main worker. And then additional payments should be available for better equipment, for more work hands. All in all equaling what the normal price would be, so the average 14k price in game. With the same output it normal has in game (but that's debatable too)

That way the investment isn't so crazy to the build nor lose.

 

[BlackRainZ]

I'm fine with a enemy faction seizing your workshops. That's what war is. To make things not so terrible hard on the player in general. The start up cost of the workshops needs to be segmented. Like the overall cost of the workshop is fine, but as a huge down payment is kind of whack.

The workshop should be one mid size payment of, let's say 6k to 8k for the workshop itself and its main worker. And then additional payments should be available for better equipment, for more work hands. All in all equaling what the normal price would be, so the average 14k price in game. With the same output it normal has in game (but that's debatable too)

That way the investment isn't so crazy to the build nor lose.

Why is this necessary? How about build the workshops in a safe place or in a city under your own nation and not in a foreign nation? I never lost a single workshop because I always built them in a safe place. Also, as the game gets more developed, we most likely won't see this chaotic war environment and it should be more restrained. I doubt it is going to be exactly the way it is now.

I should also add that there is a perk for when losing workshops you get some of the money back.

 

[Yangbang]

Why is this necessary? How about build the workshops in a safe place or in a city under your own nation and not in a foreign nation?

Well of course, that's a given. But if your friendly town is captured or you have a town that was friendly and goes agro. That's what I mean when you should lose it. It makes sense doesn't it.

 

[BlackRainZ]

Well of course, that's a given. But if your friendly town is captured or you have a town that was friendly and goes agro. That's what I mean when you should lose it. It makes sense doesn't it.

Yes, but there needs to be a risk of losing your assets, otherwise what is the point? Just endless money? There is already a perk which you can get that is like insurance for losing workshops. I don't think it should be an automatic endless money supply and you will earn back what you invested and more within a half a year or so of in game time.

 

[Maximuuus]

I only agree if you're a mercenary.
If you're a vassal or a king it's fine as it is.

 

[kampfbock]

+1
While i agree wit some people here, that the current system makes sense from a real life perspective, i have to agree with OP, when he says that is a fun killer, especially given the current state of diplomacy and the strategic AI.
If you want to play as merchant/artisan right now you can go 2 paths. Either you do solely that and never swear allegiance or found a kingdom yourself. I would not know why anyone would choose to do so, given that trading and passive income from caravans/workshops is just monotone, but if others enjoy that, so be it. In this case there is no problem, since you will never be at war with anyone.
Other way is, to start of as merchant/artisan and use it as springboard to facilitate your political growth. In that case you have decide from the get go which faction you want to join and thus be able to plan your workshop locations. Even then, since war declaration is all over the place right now, you wll still loose some workshops, because some idiot lord decided to raid some village or caravan of a country on the other side of the map. And this is just frustrating.

Thats why i would support a change in this mechanic. Having them not produce income while at war, having them operate in secret, but at a reduced profit, paying some compensation for a complete loss or maybe make it an actual decision to be taken by the lord/player.
There could be laws regulating workshops, the decision to revoke workshops could be a concious decision and not just automatically, because you are at war now. Maybe if the lord i am at war with now really likes me and/or has some traits like geneous or honorable he might just leave my workshop as it is. If he hates me or has traits like calculating, he might just take it. There could be done much more than what we have now and anything is better than what we have right now.

I dont midn if there are risks, on the contrary, there should be risks to such any easy moneymaker. But the risks have to be calculateable and the possibility for planning by the player has to exist, so it feels good. Being forced to plan out your playthrough fromt he get go, so you do not waste hours of playtime by mid game, is not an optimal solution. Even more so when even then you can not avoid it, because of stupid AI.

 

[TheShermanator]

+1.

To recap: I also think that losing the workshop in times of war is of-a-piece with a good risk/reward scheme that makes the game fun. (I'd be open to a dice-roll vs. 100% every time, or even a reduced income scenario such as the ones described above, but I'd support the status quo on that too.) The real problem is the QOL tedium of having to go to the desired city yourself to manually buy new workshops every time.

This workshop issue highlights the broader problem in balancing these 2 things: A) having an immersive medieval RPG experience but also B) having lots of assets, interests, etc. across the map. Bannerlord shouldn't be Total War; you shouldn't be able to effortlessly and instantly remote-manage everything. But the way it is now, where you have to go and do so many things yourself in person, is just a grind. Not challenging/risky, just time-consuming. Having to go yourself and talk to a shop worker to buy every shop is a clear example of the larger dynamic.

(Also, this particular issue would be more interesting and rewarding if diplomacy wasn't terrible - e.g. if it was possible to cultivate interesting long term positive relationships and alliances with other factions. As is, they just declare war on you randomly, so there's no reward to protecting workshops unless you put them in your own cities.)

To me, some kind of deliberately inefficient (i.e. tasks take game time to complete) messenger system seems like it would address (A) and (B) above.

 

[DontHateDefenestrate]

I agree. I think that the enemy should hold back your profits while the war goes on, but you should get your stuff back when the war is over -- especially given how random and wacky the AI is when it comes to declaring.

Perhaps a middle way would be that your Charm and Roguery have to do with this. Like, there's a series of Charm perks that give you x% chance to get your workshops back at the end of a war (also based on what the Lord of that city thinks of you). And there's Roguery perks that lets you keep getting some of the profits from workshops in enemy towns (because the profits are getting smuggled out). And maybe you should only lose your workshops as a %chance per day of the war which is higher if based on the enemy faction's opinion of you, the owning lord's opinion of you, your position in your faction (higher chance per day the higher your rank and importance), and maybe based on your and the enemy lord's honor rating.

As it stands, I don't think there are enough rewards for being honorable and well-liked. So maybe enemy lords being willing to give your stuff back after a war could be such a reward.

 

[Yangbang]

We can look at this from a very game perspective point of view or we can look at this from a realistic point of view. To address it from the logical point of view, If you were the conquerors of a recently captured city. Would you allow businesses and profits that go to your enemy to continue functioning and being exported to fund them? Probably not.

What good would taking over a city be if portions of its revenues are being shared with your enemies.

From just a game perspective I think to has a compromise of running businesses will also folding alliances with factions. I feel like there should be a grace. For you to recapture cities and not lose your businesses immediately. That way it also gives the player incentive to fight enemies that are attacking your faction.

 

[DontHateDefenestrate]

We can look at this from a very game perspective point of view or we can look at this from a realistic point of view. To address it from the logical point of view, If you were the conquerors of a recently captured city. Would you allow businesses and profits that go to your enemy to continue functioning and being exported to fund them? Probably not.

What good would taking over a city be if portions of its revenues are being shared with your enemies.

From just a game perspective I think to has a compromise of running businesses will also folding alliances with factions. I feel like there should be a grace. For you to recapture cities and not lose your businesses immediately. That way it also gives the player incentive to fight enemies that are attacking your faction.

I feel like, as I posted right above your comment, the workshop owner's stats and perks, honor, and relations with the opposing faction's lords should play into this. Sure it makes sense that while you're at war you should be experiencing income interruption. But I feel like if we let stats and such affect this, it will be much more strategic and rewarding. What if you could use the city's underworld to proxy-buy workshops? Like ok, you're having to pay a gang lord some of your profit, and you have to keep relations up with him or her, but then when you go to war it's "their" workshop and some profits are still getting smuggled out to you.

Also read what I posted above your comment: https://forums.taleworlds.com/index...be-revoked-in-case-of-war.413624/post-9445112

 

[TheShermanator]

I still feel like we might be overthinking this. The worst part is the QOL hassle, not the 15k loss. Making it so you could buy (or rebuy) workshops remotely to replace the ones you’ve lost would be the simplest solution IMHO.

 

[Yangbang]

I still feel like we might be overthinking this. The worst part is the QOL hassle, not the 15k loss. Making it so you could buy (or rebuy) workshops remotely to replace the ones you’ve lost would be the simplest solution IMHO.

To you point, yes. Our companions need a major overhaul (or roadmap of features) of added features. They should easily be a representative for you and your clan to send out and buy workshops.

 

[TheShermanator]

For sure. The king of a growing in empire shouldn’t have to travel all the way across the continent in person, go to the city, talk to some random schmuck shop worker to buy his 10th brewery.