[WNL8] Suggestions

[Fietta]

Yes GDPR is about data holding, but I'm not going to go into depth about that, I contacted the ICO about MOSS when it was brought up for tournaments, it's also not all about 'consent'; if there's a security breach with people's data, you'll have some pretty bad GDPR issues. We had the MOSS discussion years ago, no need to go into detail, in the meantime, recording is a great alternative.

Bannerlord will have it's own system.

So we don't go around in circles, here is the MOSS thread.

https://forums.taleworlds.com/index.php?threads/moss-anticheat.376016/

 

[Aeronwen]

Yes GDPR is about data holding, but I'm not going to go into depth about that, I contacted the ICO about MOSS when it was brought up for tournaments, it's also not all about 'consent'; if there's a security breach with people's data, you'll have some pretty bad GDPR issues. We had the MOSS discussion years ago, no need to go into detail, in the meantime, recording is a great alternative.

Bannerlord will have it's own system.

So we don't go around in circles, here is the MOSS thread.

https://forums.taleworlds.com/index.php?threads/moss-anticheat.376016/

There is no 'people's data' though. there are just screenshots of the game , which the user can (and should) check before sending them.

 

[Fietta]

There is no 'people's data' though. there are just screenshots of the game , which the user can (and should) check before sending them.

Ok Aeronwen, please read the thread I've given above. Moss has the potential of capturing people's data. Recording is a great alternative.

 

[Aeronwen]

Ok Aeronwen, please read the thread I've given above. Moss has the potential of capturing people's data. Recording is a great alternative.

Recording is fine but there is no point posting misleading information about MOSS.
The MOSS system means the screenshots are held on the players pc, the player can check the screenshots and the player decides whether to send it to the admins or not. Therefore privacy issues do not apply.

If you are conflating what MM did with the MOSS system then you should consider taht is a totally different issue.

 

[Fietta]

Ok Aeronwen

 

[Shemaforash]

I still think moss was a great idea for the scene and I don't really care whether or not Fietta thinks it's a GDPR issue because it's not, you signed up to participate and you are willingly sending your information in that case. If the data from players is public then none of the data would be "leaked". That's why it's all public in rainbow six siege competitive, probably, in the thread you just linked, where I mentioned that before.

 

[Killfacer]

Aeronwen is correct re GDPR though MOSS requires at least a good majority to support implementing it which simply wasntt the case when initially discussed.

 

[Fietta]

I still think moss was a great idea for the scene and I don't really care whether or not Fietta thinks it's a GDPR issue because it's not, you signed up to participate and you are willingly sending your information in that case. If the data from players is public then none of the data would be "leaked". That's why it's all public in rainbow six siege competitive, probably, in the thread you just linked, where I mentioned that before.

Yeah, just like you mentioned to Mynes it was fine to use malware.

If the user is able to see what they're sending and they found that a personal screenshot was captured and decided not to send it to the admin team, they'll get banned. In large competitive tournaments its ran by reputable people (such as the company themselves), just like it would be OK if it were ran by TW, the fact is it's ran by random from the forums. People would be fine to send personal information to reputable people, in this case if people refuse to give their personal screenshot they'd get banned. Youd be in the compliance of the GDPR if you're holding personal information, and for MOSS to be viable that has to be the case otherwise people would get banned for not sending their personal screenshot.

Being a data holder has responsibility and responsibility that cant come about from some community members.

 

[theDonut]

shots are being fired right here right now

 

[Aeronwen]

Yeah, just like you mentioned to Mynes it was fine to use malware.

If the user is able to see what they're sending and they found that a personal screenshot was captured and decided not to send it to the admin team, they'll get banned. In large competitive tournaments its ran by reputable people (such as the company themselves), just like it would be OK if it were ran by TW, the fact is it's ran by random from the forums. People would be fine to send personal information to reputable people, in this case if people refuse to give their personal screenshot they'd get banned. Youd be in the compliance of the GDPR if you're holding personal information, and for MOSS to be viable that has to be the case.

Being a data holder has responsibility and responsibility that cant come about from some community members.

The fact that you would be banned if you decided not to send the info to the admin team doesn't make it a GDPR issue. That's like saying If I shouldn't have to take my passport to the airport in case I drop it in the street. ^^ The fact that the player may face a consequence if they slip up is not a privacy issue it is a personal responsibility issue.
I had actually forgotten that MOSS generally takes some PC data though - I am not sure if the version specific to warband did that too but I would be unconfortable with that and I think your agument may stand up if it does.
As for holding the screenshots why would we do that?
In most cases of MOSS use the files are uploaded to a third party site. That is what I would recommend, the player retains control and can delete them when they have been viewed.

 

[Hero_of_Ferelden]

If the user is able to see what they're sending and they found that a personal screenshot was captured and decided not to send it to the admin team, they'll get banned.

Get banned on some online game, or have personal info shown to an admin? hmm tough choice that.

 

[Fietta]

The fact that you would be banned if you decided not to send the info to the admin team doesn't make it a GDPR issue. That's like saying If I shouldn't have to take my passport to the airport in case I drop it in the street. ^^ The fact that the player may face a consequence if they slip up is not a privacy issue it is a personal responsibility issue.
I had actually forgotten that MOSS generally takes some PC data though - I am not sure if the version specific to warband did that too but I would be unconfortable with that and I think your agument may stand up if it does.
As for holding the screenshots why would we do that?
In most cases of MOSS use the files are uploaded to a third party site. That is what I would recommend, the player retains control and can delete them when they have been viewed.

But the point is, getting banned for MOSS collecting your personal data even though haven't cheated is silly and doesnt make it a viable option. If I decided to give you my personal screenshot so I don't get banned, then yes, you'll be in compliance of the GDPR. As a general anti-cheat it's fine if its handled by a reputable source, in this case it's not, so id literally risk getting banned from the tournament because I didnt send my personal screenshot to some community admin team. It's silly.

It's a lose-lose scenario, if you dont send the personal screenshot you get banned, if you send it, you risk it getting leaked, you cant tell me that community members are experienced enough to hold my personal data. You lose either way. Users are giving personal for the admin team to take that information, but the compliance with the GDPR in data holding still applies and has nothing to do with consent.

 

[Silen]

I agree with Fietta, GDPR or not I wouldn't install a software I know little of that could potentially expose personal info to a bunch of random strangers online; anyone can run a tournament and I'd rather not bother. I tend to tab out or open the steam overlay very often out of sheer habit even when I don't need to. Recording gameplay works fine for the most part for now. I hope Bannerlord will come with some proper anticheat so we won't have to put up with these half-assed solutions.

 

[Killfacer]

Yeah GDPR aside there clearly wasn't the support for implementing it on a wide scale and therefor the admin team looked at other options which is why we'd lean towards having people record their POV even if it's a far from perfect response.

Let's avoid going around in circles anyway, if people have suggestions they're welcome to make them. If not then we can leave the GDPR debates to another time.

 

[Killfacer]

Would you guys consider accepting any graphical changes which do not affect gameplay? Armour edits cosmetically can allow you to see players easier or allow you to see through them. Changes to weapons allows you to see the weapon easier thus block it with more efficiency. Changing the colours of missiles such as javs and arrows can also allow you dodge them with more ease. Lastly you can edit certain elements of building textures to make them essentially invisible giving you wallhack without the need for a program.

However, all I am asking is for you to allow simple edits which do not effect gameplay atall while not giving any advantages to me or anyone else using the graphic changes. Edits such as healthbar, loading screens and a blue money bag give essentially no advantage (if you want you can test it yourself). I am also willing to share my graphic changes with anyone who wants them, as seen on my thread or by players who have contacted me and asked for them. I have used graphic changes since like 2014 and no one has cared untill now.

Since I got told to remove them via admins and I did. I thought I should make a post here to make a request to use it rather than either carrying on using them without recording or screenshotting anything or not use them atall. Thanks for your time.

Thanks for approaching it like this, it's appreciated. We will discuss it on the admin forum and get back to you. I have to say however the answer will probably be no.

 

[Charlini]

Thanks for approaching it like this, it's appreciated. We will discuss it on the admin forum and get back to you. I have to say however the answer will probably be no.

A bit surprised ngl, think you guys should reconsider this as it grants 0 advantatges despite being mods. Setting them on the same pack as wallhacks, setup info from that mod or pink javelins seems just not right. I would also not care as much as Apollo does, but can understand if he would get quite annoyed, after using them for a long period & after dedicating both time and effort to just get told to get rid of them without a clear real reason(not saying it's strictly your fault, but rules aren't always right, specially when they have/had the control that Warband tours do, as said, I literally edited countless rules in my tournament and noone cared or complained). So in my opinion it's better to edit a rule or set in exceptions before throwing someone's work to the ground, when it's clear that his modifications just affect UI and HUD(If im not mistaken).

Regarding the MOSS/Anti cheat Topic: Think it's clear what MOSS actually does and why it doesn't fit this community. There's many people that just aren't willing to install and play without tabbing out and that's why it got discarded. On the other hand we've recordings, which can be decent enough and were used in the past effectively to ensure that possible cheaters, provided their footage. So I just suggest that if you have any actual evidence or major complains over someone, you inmediatly force him to record, it's a win-win situation, he clears any possible doubt(if he's clean) and the admins ensure that the specific individual isn't cheating in officials. So no harm in enforcing it on some guys that you potentially received info about or that many people are suspicious about.

 

[Alyss]

I think they are saying no because then everyone will ask for his or her personal file modification. Then they would have to check all of them cuz you can’t say yes to one and no to the others.

 

[Charlini]

I don't think it's that big of a deal, the guy who asked about it did mention cosmetic changes to armors and stuff, those could potentially provide an advantatge as you even distinguish cosmeticwise similar items(vaegir 50/110 helmet, scimis, highlight colors to throwing stuff etc) unlike UI and HUD, so not the same case as Apollo's(if we distinguish between kinds of modifications, which rules currently don't).

Besides that being 4 in the admin team, I doubt that it takes that much amount of time to individually check the modifications and forbid or allow based on that. We're a small community 1 month away from EA so...

 

[Flaviuss]

I mean realistically what incriminating stuff do you lot have on your PC that causes a fuss over MOSS

 

[Killfacer]

I'm happy enough with the rules in this regard and we'll be having to say no I'm afraid Apollo. I don't think admins should need to look at peoples cosmetic mods and I don't think its a precedent we want to set going forward.