[WNL7] Suggestions

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Killfacer

Marquis
WB
Yeah it's definitely something we'd be open to, only concern is that there wouldn't be enough teams to make it worthwhile. Agree that there's a large skill/experience gap in Division C. If there's any other assistance admins or more experienced players can give, suggestions are welcome.
 

Waljaaa

Knight at Arms
Deacon Barry said:
Alyss said:
How about putting some C teams in B division (like the top 4/5)

Problem with that is there's already a lot of stomp Division B matches.

Well yes theres stomps going on in division B but almost every player in division B is experienced and has played in many tournaments.
In division C you have quite a few teams made out of players who never played in a single tournament before going up against teams with players who played competitive for years...
 

Alyss

Grandmaster Knight
Waljaaa said:
Deacon Barry said:
Alyss said:
How about putting some C teams in B division (like the top 4/5)

Problem with that is there's already a lot of stomp Division B matches.

Well yes theres stomps going on in division B but almost every player in division B is experienced and has played in many tournaments.
In division C you have quite a few teams made out of players who never played in a single tournament before going up against teams with players who played competitive for years...

Senate, LBJ and Dayne (maybe Doner) could perform well in division B tbh. Also you can put BE and Brutal Killers in div A so all the divisions are a lot more balanced with teams
 

Killfacer

Marquis
WB
Dunno if they'd perform "well" but yeah probably better up there than in C. Reality is not a single team won their promotion matches and these were matches against teams which badly lost almost all their games in their divisions.
 

_Osiris_

Baron
WBNWWF&SVC
I don't think putting the top 4-5 div C teams into B will help too much, most of those are up there because their players are experienced or better rather than a higher level of team play and coordination that might be required in B, C is a training ground really.

There is a limit to how big you can make divisions A and B with only 7-8 week run times and i think it's as balanced as it can be without a full league taking many more weeks.

In theory a larger division C should mean that the weaker teams with less experience don't get stomped too often because the way the fixtures are ran they will mostly play teams with the same points so while they may get stomped a couple of weeks the rest should be decent games and if they start beating those teams they come up against a stronger team in the same wnl rather than come top of a newbie league then instantly going up against far stronger teams in the division above and probably disbanding

 

Habrak

Squire
WB
I think that this tournament has already given a decent opportunity for the better teams (from divisions B&C ofc) to move into higher divisions, and it seems like enough, because afaik there haven't been many promotions yet. That will probably change with the following WNL editions, when everyone gets time to get more practice. However, if the amount of 'rookie' teams increases there should be a good environment for them created so as to make it more interesting for the teams and for potential viewers.

Osiris' point of view is also great, no one likes the tournaments too long. With time they lose interest(NC2017 :roll:)
 

_Osiris_

Baron
WBNWWF&SVC
Not a fan of moving the promotion play offs to just before the next WNL. The point of playoffs in esports and real life sports is a chance for the current team to cement their place in a different league for next season. Teams can then strengthen or might lose players based on where they know they will play.

Using football as an obvious example you dont play the play offs before the start of the current season because thats insanity.

Imagine being a captain of the team playing for a spot in division A "hey come join us we might be in division A as long as the team we are supposed to play doesn't go and get a ton of new players just before the season starts screwing us over"

Playoffs are supposed to be a reward for playing well one season, If the reasoning is that teams might change and players might get added well welcome to the world i guess? Might as well re evaluate every team just before the next wnl and resort them all into different divisions based on who joins and leaves
 

Viktor

Sergeant Knight
_Osiris_ said:
Not a fan of moving the promotion play offs to just before the next WNL. The point of playoffs in esports and real life sports is a chance for the current team to cement their place in a different league for next season. Teams can then strengthen or might lose players based on where they know they will play.

Using football as an obvious example you dont play the play offs before the start of the current season because thats insanity.

Imagine being a captain of the team playing for a spot in division A "hey come join us we might be in division A as long as the team we are supposed to play doesn't go and get a ton of new players just before the season starts screwing us over"

Playoffs are supposed to be a reward for playing well one season, If the reasoning is that teams might change and players might get added well welcome to the world i guess? Might as well re evaluate every team just before the next wnl and resort them all into different divisions based on who joins and leaves
Big fan of this.
 

Scar

Prussian Immortal
Marquis
_Osiris_ said:
Not a fan of moving the promotion play offs to just before the next WNL. The point of playoffs in esports and real life sports is a chance for the current team to cement their place in a different league for next season. Teams can then strengthen or might lose players based on where they know they will play.

Using football as an obvious example you dont play the play offs before the start of the current season because thats insanity.

Imagine being a captain of the team playing for a spot in division A "hey come join us we might be in division A as long as the team we are supposed to play doesn't go and get a ton of new players just before the season starts screwing us over"

Playoffs are supposed to be a reward for playing well one season, If the reasoning is that teams might change and players might get added well welcome to the world i guess? Might as well re evaluate every team just before the next wnl and resort them all into different divisions based on who joins and leaves
As we have said before, our biggest goal with the Warband Native League was to stabilize teams and thus the scene as a whole. We don't want to see teams picking up loads of players because their old team just secured a spot in a higher division, you are actually punishing the old players who have achieved that goal by increasing their competition for playtime within the team. That in turn increases the risk of those old players leaving the team because they fear they won't get to play anymore, which then can, in the worst of cases, completely change the face of the team. Then, as we have said in response to a question asked at the start of the tournament regarding this potential issue, we would have to consider whether that changed team still qualifies as the original team that played in the WNL7, or as a new team.

In an ideal scenario, the current teams would stay together, and just continue to play until the next season. Unless some players suddenly start to massively under- or overperform, the difference in strength between the bottom and top runners of each division will roughly stay the same, regardless of whether we play the promotions ahead of next season or at the end of this one.

In a more realistic scenario, we see a lot of teams either not coming back or completely changing their roster, which case the results from last season don't count much in terms of estimating the team strength for the next season. And that is, in our opinion, the biggest danger when running a division based system: Ending up with unbalanced division that produce stomps. Playing the promotions right before the next season rather than now will greatly reduce that risk because big changes in team strength are unlikely to happen inbetween the promotions and the actual season. Or in other words: The estimate we will get then will be far more accurate than the estimate we got half a year go, which will then result in more well balanced divisions and more evenly balanced matches.

I can see it might be frustrating for certain teams who wanted to get the promotion matches out of the way right now, but we fear the potential frustration of players having to play in badly balanced matches is far greater.
 

Viktor

Sergeant Knight
Scar said:
_Osiris_ said:
Not a fan of moving the promotion play offs to just before the next WNL. The point of playoffs in esports and real life sports is a chance for the current team to cement their place in a different league for next season. Teams can then strengthen or might lose players based on where they know they will play.

Using football as an obvious example you dont play the play offs before the start of the current season because thats insanity.

Imagine being a captain of the team playing for a spot in division A "hey come join us we might be in division A as long as the team we are supposed to play doesn't go and get a ton of new players just before the season starts screwing us over"

Playoffs are supposed to be a reward for playing well one season, If the reasoning is that teams might change and players might get added well welcome to the world i guess? Might as well re evaluate every team just before the next wnl and resort them all into different divisions based on who joins and leaves
As we have said before, our biggest goal with the Warband Native League was to stabilize teams and thus the scene as a whole.We don't want to see teams picking up loads of players because their old team just secured a spot in a higher division, you are actually punishing the old players who have achieved that goal by increasing their competition for playtime within the team. That in turn increases the risk of those old players leaving the team because they fear they won't get to play anymore, which then can, in the worst of cases, completely change the face of the team. Then, as we have said in response to a question asked at the start of the tournament regarding this potential issue, we would have to consider whether that changed team still qualifies as the original team that played in the WNL7, or as a new team.

In an ideal scenario, the current teams would stay together, and just continue to play until the next season. Unless some players suddenly start to massively under- or overperform, the difference in strength between the bottom and top runners of each division will roughly stay the same, regardless of whether we play the promotions ahead of next season or at the end of this one.

In a more realistic scenario, we see a lot of teams either not coming back or completely changing their roster, which case the results from last season don't count much in terms of estimating the team strength for the next season. And that is, in our opinion, the biggest danger when running a division based system: Ending up with unbalanced division that produce stomps. Playing the promotions right before the next season rather than now will greatly reduce that risk because big changes in team strength are unlikely to happen inbetween the promotions and the actual season. Or in other words: The estimate we will get then will be far more accurate than the estimate we got half a year go, which will then result in more well balanced divisions and more evenly balanced matches.

I can see it might be frustrating for certain teams who wanted to get the promotion matches out of the way right now, but we fear the potential frustration of players having to play in badly balanced matches is far greater.
Hopefully, you're up for a bit of healthy disagreement Scar my mate - that first point is reasonable but not entirely plausible (in my humble opinion). If Team X gain promotion into Div A, then when WNL8 comes around the guys who played in Team X have a huge incentive to come back - but that's not the issue you're raising; you're saying people will want to join that team because they got into Div A. You're saying that new people will dominate Team X with the old players being kicked out but there are two problems I have with that theory - one: if Team X signs up to WNL8 with a completely new roster (hardly any old players) then surely that's just stealing a team's name and wouldn't be allowed? Two: If I was the captain of Team X who just gained promotion into Div A I would definitely want to keep those guys as a team and not disrupt the dynamic of a clearly good team. And even If I did - where would I get Div A standard players from who aren't already playing? I'm sure you're the same as me in thinking that I'd be quite protective over my guys if we just gained promotion to Div A and would be very much on-the-ball with spotting glory-seeking players just trying to join my team for the top spot.

Your second point again I understand - but that problem would be solved with post WNL7 promotions - (again going with Team X) - if my Team just gained promotion, I'd have a huge incentive to come back with that team and the players definitely would too - they're guaranteed a spot in the top Division and they have a team they know and are good together with. A big problem with Warband in recent years has been 'teams' forming rather than 'clans' playing - with new teams just forming for each tournament. The immediate promotional playoffs occurring right after WNL7 discourage that because, as mentioned, if Team X just gained a promotion they know they gotta come back and play together under the same name again.

Finally, the third point again I disagree with - I think changes are just as likely to happen in between playoffs and the season than between now and WNL8. You've seen the roster thread, they're constantly changing and the same guys who will glory hunt between now and WNL8 will be the same guys' glory hunting just before WNL8; I don't see it having that much of an impact in that regard, regardless of whether or not you have them now or just before the season.

Overall I feel that your fear of unbalanced games would be eradicated due to the aforementioned points I raised.
 

Scar

Prussian Immortal
Marquis
Viktor said:
Hopefully, you're up for a bit of healthy disagreement Scar my mate - that first point is reasonable but not entirely plausible (in my humble opinion). If Team X gain promotion into Div A, then when WNL8 comes around the guys who played in Team X have a huge incentive to come back - but that's not the issue you're raising; you're saying people will want to join that team because they got into Div A. You're saying that new people will dominate Team X with the old players being kicked out but there are two problems I have with that theory - one: if Team X signs up to WNL8 with a completely new roster (hardly any old players) then surely that's just stealing a team's name and wouldn't be allowed? Two: If I was the captain of Team X who just gained promotion into Div A I would definitely want to keep those guys as a team and not disrupt the dynamic of a clearly good team. And even If I did - where would I get Div A standard players from who aren't already playing? I'm sure you're the same as me in thinking that I'd be quite protective over my guys if we just gained promotion to Div A and would be very much on-the-ball with spotting glory-seeking players just trying to join my team for the top spot.

Your second point again I understand - but that problem would be solved with post WNL7 promotions - (again going with Team X) - if my Team just gained promotion, I'd have a huge incentive to come back with that team and the players definitely would too - they're guaranteed a spot in the top Division and they have a team they know and are good together with. A big problem with Warband in recent years has been 'teams' forming rather than 'clans' playing - with new teams just forming for each tournament. The immediate promotional playoffs occurring right after WNL7 discourage that because, as mentioned, if Team X just gained a promotion they know they gotta come back and play together under the same name again.

Finally, the third point again I disagree with - I think changes are just as likely to happen in between playoffs and the season than between now and WNL8. You've seen the roster thread, they're constantly changing and the same guys who will glory hunt between now and WNL8 will be the same guys' glory hunting just before WNL8; I don't see it having that much of an impact in that regard, regardless of whether or not you have them now or just before the season.

Overall I feel that your fear of unbalanced games would be eradicated due to the aforementioned points I raised.
As for your response to my first point, in theory I'm with you, as a team captain I would be protective over the guys who have won me the promotion. Recent history in terms of teams has shown though that teams quickly disband or change their roster significantly, even when they did well in previous tournaments. I mean just look at the Free Agents for the Warband Innovation Series, quite frankly I am a little shocked to see the amount of high quality free agents that have already said they are currently looking for a new team, even when their teams did well in the Warband Native League. As you said, depending on the quantity of new players picked up we would have to discuss whether that new team is actually still comparable to the old one, but to be honest depending on who you pick up, already one or two quality signings can get your team to a whole new level.

As for the second point: That argument can be flipped around, or seen from the other side: Obviously teams that won their promotion match now do indeed have an incentive to stick around, however, the other team that lost now have an incentive to also disband because their players might feel like they belong in Division A but didn't get there. You could obviously say that if that was the case, they would have carried harder, but we both know that's not how most players think. In short: Promotion matches create winners, but also losers.

As for the third point, I can't really follow the logic in that. To me it seems natural that capped players who cannot move to another team until this season is over would play in the promotion match of their current team, and then depending on how that match went or just their general feelings about the team, make a decision on whether they would stay or not. Those decisions will be made shortly after the WNL has ended, as we already have a new tournament lined up, and potentially another big one in the summer. As you have said yourself, currently the scene is constantly forming and disbanding teams, clans have pretty much died out. I expect a lot of changes to happen because inbetween both seasons of the WNL there are two more tournaments, and the only reason that is keeping players with the intention of leaving their team is that they can't transfer to another one. That reason won't be there anymore after this season has ended. Therefore, your promotion matches might not turn out to be good indicators for the teams strength of next season.

If we make those teams who actually return for the WNL8 play their promotion matches one match before the actual tournaments starts, let's call it Week 0, we could even say that those count as regular matches and that everyone who played in those is capped. Obviously it's never ideal to "force" players to stay in their teams, but at least then we have a solid indicator of team strength, based on which we can ensure that divisions will be fairly balanced.

Also we shouldn't forget: This decision doesn't make it any less likely that those teams who do deserve it actually get promoted, even if they have to wait a little longer now. I still do believe, as I've written in my first reply, that any frustration over a prolonged waiting time until you know you have been promoted weighs much less than the frustration of having to play in an unbalanced division for 2 months.
 

Harman

Master Knight
The tournament was very good, don't ruin it with taking 4 months break because 90% teams will disband. I really dislike the fact that next tournament is disconnected from this one. If I'm not wrong this tournament supposed to create continuity for the community. I understand that you had to deal with a lot of **** and it propably dried you out as admins but maybe use the energy of the next crew to continue this project somehow?

It would be nice to develop some 'team licence' rules and define who holds the rights to it.

Anyway, great work. I admire your commitment to run everything in time for so many weeks. <3
 

Roberto_Italiano

Sergeant at Arms
Was wondering about fun week, where teams would compete on different gamemode f.e. Capture the flag, which would be fun to watch (atleast for me xD) or a Big Battle, where all Teams would gather and fight orrr Div B teams vs Div A teams on big battle (with roster limited to 6 players), so 6 A teams and 8 Div B teams would result in 36 vs 48 battle.

If this is possible in organisation setup, I would watch it with enjoyment, yuno great teams uniting in big battle

Keep in mind, that Im freshly after Avengers Endgame and 4 hours of sleep, so my imagination and thinking might be in a bit mess xD

Heads up
 

Scar

Prussian Immortal
Marquis
Harman said:
The tournament was very good, don't ruin it with taking 4 months break because 90% teams will disband. I really dislike the fact that next tournament is disconnected from this one. If I'm not wrong this tournament supposed to create continuity for the community. I understand that you had to deal with a lot of **** and it propably dried you out as admins but maybe use the energy of the next crew to continue this project somehow?

It would be nice to develop some 'team licence' rules and define who holds the rights to it.

Anyway, great work. I admire your commitment to run everything in time for so many weeks. <3
Thanks for the nice words. The reason the estimated start time was pushed back so many months is because we heard there will probably be two other tournaments, and because I won't be around much in the meantime due to university. I have to say, I agree with what you are saying though. Obviously I cannot speak for them, but maybe Aeronwen and Deacon could pick up some other admins to help them out with running the next season earlier than October. I guess they will read it here themselves, but I'll suggest it to them on the admin forum as well.

Roberto_Italiano said:
Was wondering about fun week, where teams would compete on different gamemode f.e. Capture the flag, which would be fun to watch (atleast for me xD) or a Big Battle, where all Teams would gather and fight orrr Div B teams vs Div A teams on big battle (with roster limited to 6 players), so 6 A teams and 8 Div B teams would result in 36 vs 48 battle.

If this is possible in organisation setup, I would watch it with enjoyment, yuno great teams uniting in big battle

Keep in mind, that Im freshly after Avengers Endgame and 4 hours of sleep, so my imagination and thinking might be in a bit mess xD

Heads up
Generally speaking I'm a big fan of fun events such as this, someone else also suggested an All Star match. It really depends on the community and what they want to do - I'll open a seperate thread for people who are interessted to discuss it further.
 

Aeronwen

Duke
Roberto_Italiano said:
Was wondering about fun week, where teams would compete on different gamemode f.e. Capture the flag, which would be fun to watch (atleast for me xD) or a Big Battle, where all Teams would gather and fight orrr Div B teams vs Div A teams on big battle (with roster limited to 6 players), so 6 A teams and 8 Div B teams would result in 36 vs 48 battle.

If this is possible in organisation setup, I would watch it with enjoyment, yuno great teams uniting in big battle

Keep in mind, that Im freshly after Avengers Endgame and 4 hours of sleep, so my imagination and thinking might be in a bit mess xD

Heads up
Scar said:
Generally speaking I'm a big fan of fun events such as this, someone else also suggested an All Star match. It really depends on the community and what they want to do - I'll open a seperate thread for people who are interessted to discuss it further.

Also Phillus suggested a 'Peasant Revolt' match: 2 Div C teams (16 players) against 1 Div A team and I believe AE (+friends) would be up for that if Valgarda can find a second team to back them in the heroic (but doomed) rebelllion!
 
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