[WNL7] Suggestions

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I'm unsure as to why Naval Outpost has been put on the map pool over Mountain Fortress, not only is Naval Outpost a rather large 'closed' map (far more open), there's extreme unbalances when it comes to boat flag. The people on the boat always have an advantage when it comes to flag and positions, It's really hard to push, you can't just go to that flag willy nilly like you can on pretty much every other map. You have to push it with some decent support and tactics.
 
Hero_of_Ferelden said:
HKP said:
Am i the only one thinking that Aldea Dumar is sandi with other textures?

imo it's a better version of sandi.
I agree with that but what I meant to say what that I'd dislike to have the same map twice in the mappool.

Fietta said:
I'm unsure as to why Naval Outpost has been put on the map pool over Mountain Fortress, not only is Naval Outpost a rather large 'closed' map (far more open), there's extreme unbalances when it comes to boat flag. The people on the boat always have an advantage when it comes to flag and positions, It's really hard to push, you can't just go to that flag willy nilly like you can on pretty much every other map. You have to push it with some decent support and tactics.
this goes for pretty much every flag, on every map, silly.
 
HKP said:
Hero_of_Ferelden said:
HKP said:
Am i the only one thinking that Aldea Dumar is sandi with other textures?

imo it's a better version of sandi.
I agree with that but what I meant to say what that I'd dislike to have the same map twice in the mappool.

Fietta said:
I'm unsure as to why Naval Outpost has been put on the map pool over Mountain Fortress, not only is Naval Outpost a rather large 'closed' map (far more open), there's extreme unbalances when it comes to boat flag. The people on the boat always have an advantage when it comes to flag and positions, It's really hard to push, you can't just go to that flag willy nilly like you can on pretty much every other map. You have to push it with some decent support and tactics.
this goes for pretty much every flag, on every map, silly.

The boat flag is OP.
 
RobinWar said:
Maybe you could consider adding Legacy Town into the captain map vote thread? :grin:
We have discussed this already before the tournament, we wanted to have at least one "new" closed map in the map pool for this tournament, therefore we will not add Legacy Town I'm afraid.

HKP said:
I agree with that but what I meant to say what that I'd dislike to have the same map twice in the mappool.
They are similar but not the same. From my experience they play out differently in the actual fights because positions are arguably more accessible on Aldea Dumar. That being said, first it would have the get the majority of the votes anyway.

Fietta said:
I'm unsure as to why Naval Outpost has been put on the map pool over Mountain Fortress, not only is Naval Outpost a rather large 'closed' map (far more open), there's extreme unbalances when it comes to boat flag. The people on the boat always have an advantage when it comes to flag and positions, It's really hard to push, you can't just go to that flag willy nilly like you can on pretty much every other map. You have to push it with some decent support and tactics.
I think Mountain Fortress is equally large in scale, the open flag alone already makes it a mixed map imo, let alone the ruins flag. I agree, on Naval Outpost boat is not easy to push, but it's definitely doable. There are unbalances with most flag spawns if not all, because usually they offer some defensive positions that one team reaches before the other. We are confident that Naval Outpost is the superior choice for the tournament.
 
Perhaps if there was some way to know which flag was coming so you could prepare in advance and take advantageous positions, that would solve the problem of both Mountain Fortress and Naval Outpost...

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OurGloriousLeader said:
Perhaps if there was some way to know which flag was coming so you could prepare in advance and take advantageous positions, that would solve the problem of both Mountain Fortress and Naval Outpost...

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That solves exactly nothing, because the defensive positions will still be there, and one team will reach them first.

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More time to deal with it, and foreknowledge that you'll have to allows different positions and builds. Also a lot of flags are able to be reached at roughly equal times, but when it's random teams simply move to the best defensive flag and hope it spawns there rather than contesting the enemy's defensive flag (after all why would you, unless you absolutely had to). Almost like having random objective is still terrible and not in any other game...
 
I mean, if you really think about it OGL, there's normally a flag closer to either spawn, meaning one can always setup quicker. You've also go to remember when it comes to randomised flag spawns, people normally stay close to both flags and teams will move all the time, if you already know where the flag is, then the closer team would just run to the flag and setup? Atleast with random flags, both teams have a chance of getting to the flag...
 
OurGloriousLeader said:
More time to deal with it, and foreknowledge that you'll have to allows different positions and builds. Also a lot of flags are able to be reached at roughly equal times, but when it's random teams simply move to the best defensive flag and hope it spawns there rather than contesting the enemy's defensive flag (after all why would you, unless you absolutely had to). Almost like having random objective is still terrible and not in any other game...
OurGloriousLeader said:
There often is, but there's still nothing that randomisation improves in that regard, and no team will ever abandon their defensive flag if it remains a possibility.
The two flags in question here, boat flag on Naval Outpost and open flag on Mountain Fortress will never be reached by both teams at the same time should they know flags will spawn there the next round, simply because of their positions relative to both spawns.

In fact I'm wondering which flags would be reached by both teams at the same time.
Map Information Thread

Fort of Honour
Graveyard: Top Spawn, Middle: Equal, Cabbage: Bottom Spawn

Naval Outpost
Boat: Top Spawn, Middle: Bottom Spawn, Top: Top Spawn

San'di'boush
Graveyard: Bottom Spawn, Middle: Equal, Alley: Dependant on factions

Verloren
Market: Top Spawn, Middle: Top Spawn, Spawn Flag: Bottom Spawn



Castellum
River: Top Spawn, Middle: Equal, Church: Bottom Spawn

Frosthaven
Tower: Top Spawn, Middle: Bottom Spawn, Boat: Equal

Reveran Village
Church: Bottom Spawn, Middle: Equal, Open: Dependant on factions

River Village
Windmill: Bottom Spawn, Middle: Top Spawn, Village: Bottom Spawn
So out of the current map pool, out of the possible 24 possible flag postions I'm willing to say for 5 of them both teams have equal chances of reaching the important positions first. That's not alot.

You are right in saying that teams don't attack defensive positions held by the enemy, because there is no incentive. Your solution doesn't solve that though, it doesn't add incentive that we don't already have, it only eliminates the waiting time until then - at the potential cost of further imbalance. Teams attack defensive positions because they are forced to, whether by bad luck (randomisation) or fixed flag spawns, not because they think it's the best option.
 
It eliminates the waiting but also allows a team to push closer to the flag in the knowledge they're not risking abandoning a better flag. An example would be the upper flag spawn on Naval Outpost, there's a big difference attacking that flag when you go straight up and onto the ramp, you end up about equal in time with the defenders if they choose to defend ramp and you can catch them not perfectly set up. Whereas if you play the game of chance, you may have a harder defensive position to attack. Alternatively, knowing the flag is there they might prefer to take the long way around through tunnels and attack from behind, and now they would have time to do so again safe in the knowledge they're not giving up their own advantageous flag. The defending team might then want to push them crossing middle if they have the right build and positions, etc etc. These tactics already exist, but the surety of where the objective will be allows you to make these moves with far more certainty.

Another example is the alley in Sandiboush, and to some extent graveyard. Although one side does get there quicker, teams found that by pushing up at least close they ensure they have at least put some pressure on and are able to capitalise on any mistakes the other team make quicker. That's why for a time everyone went straight to Alley every round as long as flag could spawn there, and still do to some extent.
 
why people are so afraid of improvised tactics, why do they wanna know everything and whats going to happen in order to - again - pre set up for something known in these known maps that we have been playing since ww2

 
If a team spawns in control of the current flag, it does give them time to setup, however it also gives more time for the attackers to work down the defences. Additionally it also lets the defenders mount earlier attacks or attempt to delay the attackers from getting through.

Teams would be able to make specifically timed plays as well since they have a known objective. With the current system there is generally little incentive to attack early.

The removal of the random selection of flags is also good from a balance perspective, the number of flag spawns are so low that the odds of a disruptive flag significantly throwing off a close game is quite high. It's also something I have certainly seen before.

Generally I think the change would let the meta-game be potentially much deeper, since you would have far more ability to plan and modify the team build for each of the three scenarios rather than having to hedge around 2 flags while also spending half the round just hovering about.

The only thing I would be concerned about would be the risk of deliberate money saving rounds when a particularly hard flag is likely to come up for a team. I am not a fan of that kind of decision.
 
Again, OGL, Azan or anyone else who thinks this is a good idea are more than welcome to host a test for this. Once we have done such a test, we can continue discussing this suggestion further.
 
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