With moral changes in 1.7 are moral damage perks better or worse? Tech check request

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Ananda_The_Destroyer

Grandmaster Knight
I would like to know how moral damage is actually working now and how much the +5-10% moral damage perks are doing. Keep in mind with the ability to set yourself as captain you can have things like Heroic leader + Annoying buz/thunderous charge more easily on one captain.

Previously, troops routed very easily but now they often fight to the bitter end, it's usually only in very large battles that I have runners at all. So I don't know, does this make +moral damage more valuable because it can make them rout or will it be not useful because it will still take too long to break them? I don't know but I can't decide if I want heroic leader or the other one that give +5 troops. I guess the effect of 5 troops diminishes as my party grows via other means but the effect of moral damage + increases as my party grows. I guess as it is now It 10%% moral damage versus about 2.5% moral damage + 2.5% combat power.
 

AngryPanCake

Veteran
My experience with 1.7.0 is very limited (because of the new OoB I thought was not working for me), but the few battles I fought against looters on the campaign map indicated a significant change in morale. They fought to the last!
Even though it was somewhat unrealistic for half a dozen looters to fight to the death against a 50 man party, I kinda liked it as it allowed my lower tiers to score some kills and earn XP.
Prior to 1.7.0, they would break after a few got killed and they run so fast none of my infantry can catch up with them.
I did not try any party vs party battles, so not sure whether they too fought to the last.
 

mujadaddy

Regular
WB
Even though it was somewhat unrealistic for half a dozen looters to fight to the death against a 50 man party, I kinda liked it as it allowed my lower tiers to score some kills and earn XP.
I've gotten to fight some 200 v 50 looter fights. They fight til about 80% of them are down, whether I'm solo'ing them or not.

Haven't had a chance to experiment with the perks, though.
 

CallmeWayne

Recruit
Morale is broken once again, it doesn't work :sad:. I get only routes at the end of the battles and cavalry never (may be wrong) routes, neither archers
 
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kweassa

Sergeant at Arms
It's a little bit wonky in fights with very small numbers -- ie., the looters refuse to flee when you're alone, unlike in prior versions -- but in larger fights, it seems to function better.

What I have noticed, is that the demoralizing/shock value of ranged fire and cavalry are a lot higher than infantry. Either that, or it's the speed of casualties accumulated that seems to bring higher shock. In a small-scale fight of about 30 infantry vs. 30 looters, like someone mentioned the looters begin to flee only after almost all of them are dead, but in a fight with 15inf/15rng vs. 30 looters, the looters rout a lot faster -- and I'm not talking about arrows/bolts killing looters faster, but actually with much less number of looters killed, when they start to rout. Like, with only infantry, it takes about like more than 20 of them killed to rout, but with mix of inf+rng, they begin to rout when 10~15 of them are dead.

It's not as "instant rout" as in prior versions (which in most cases looters would rout even before they've reached the infantry lines), but they still do rout a lot faster when under fire.

I'm still a bit reserved on the effects, and need to observe more cases, but so far, I think it's acceptable.
 

Sweynforkbeard

Sergeant
Hmm,
I did a small experiment the other day. Basically just a standard looter farming operation where I ordered my party to retreat and then soloed 36 looters (horse+noble longbow).

When using a high speed circle tactic at a slightly closer range (apx. 40) they would tend to break while roughly 7-9 were still alive.

When using a stationary long range tactic (apx. +70) they would fight to the death.


Perhaps more interesting. On average, both tactics yielded 12.000 base xp per dead looter!!!
 

CallmeWayne

Recruit
Hmm,
I did a small experiment the other day. Basically just a standard looter farming operation where I ordered my party to retreat and then soloed 36 looters (horse+noble longbow).

When using a high speed circle tactic at a slightly closer range (apx. 40) they would tend to break while roughly 7-9 were still alive.

When using a stationary long range tactic (apx. +70) they would fight to the death.


Perhaps more interesting. On average, both tactics yielded 12.000 base xp per dead looter!!!
I've noticed something similar, When I killed army of lord that consisted roughly of 100 men, Just by raining arrows at them. They didn't break.
So I think in conclusion. Ranged kills do not have effect on morale if its long distance or just in general.

It seems morale system has been inverted back to the old stage somehow, where just infantry breaks. But I will try to keep an eye on that when I will play next so I can give better feedback
 

Madijeis

Sergeant
WBNW
To be honest, in larger battles it seems to work just fine, at a certain point during the infantry fight I notice a spike in kills and I guess that's when the lower tiers start running away but the high tiers stay and die
 

Bluko88

Veteran
Morale is broken once again, it doesn't work :sad:. I get only routes at the end of the battles and cavalry never (may be wrong) routes, neither archers
I do see Cavalry route, but it's usually only when the battle is effectively lost. So that does make me wonder if Cavalry bug is back.

Something with ranged kills does not seem right. Unless a ranged formation absolutely obliterates a unit they just keep charging in my experience. I mean "arrow volleys" should be an absolute terror to foot infantry, especially as kills rack up. (Personally I'd much rather get "charged" by something then have a bunch of stuff shot at me. Like you can potentially fight your way out of a melee, 1000 arrows not so much.)

Archers also don't seem to break easily, which is baffling. Especially in melee combat which they generally shouldn't like.

To me it seems to do a lot with the veterancy of a unit. Low tier, especially footmen, will run when things get a little dicey. Might have to do with some Lords having high leadership & loyalty and honor perk. Tier 3+ troops basically don't panic with that.


Overall I do like that units regain morale and will sometimes make a last stand. Or better yet actually fight back when fleeing (which I see more often). Those are big improvements.
 

Bluko88

Veteran
I do see Cavalry route, but it's usually only when the battle is effectively lost. So that does make me wonder if Cavalry bug is back.

Something with ranged kills does not seem right. Unless a ranged formation absolutely obliterates a unit they just keep charging in my experience. I mean "arrow volleys" should be an absolute terror to foot infantry, especially as kills rack up. (Personally I'd much rather get "charged" by something then have a bunch of stuff shot at me. Like you can potentially fight your way out of a melee, 1000 arrows not so much.)

Archers also don't seem to break easily, which is baffling. Especially in melee combat which they generally shouldn't like.

To me it seems to do a lot with the veterancy of a unit. Low tier, especially footmen, will run when things get a little dicey. Might have to do with some Lords having high leadership & loyalty and honor perk. Tier 3+ troops basically don't panic with that.


Overall I do like that units regain morale and will sometimes make a last stand. Or better yet actually fight back when fleeing (which I see more often). Those are big improvements.
Okay after some custom battles here, Cavalry will indeed route as they sustain losses.

Just had a bunch of Imerpial Equites totally bail when failing to kill Imperial Veteran Archers (100 vs 100). Actually a bit discouraging Veteran Archers still trump Heavy Horseman (really? a cavalry unit can't beat archers their own tier?)

Archers do retreat too, but usually only when down to 20-25% strength. Seems to be the general rule of thumb, which I guess is reasonable. While fragile morale is more "realistic", not necessarily better for gameplay. Maybe if battles lasted longer, but everything in this game is usually over within 30 seconds so trying to manage anything but cavalry is largely impossible. Armor protection has got to get beefed up, otherwise archers are always going to be rather OP.
 

five bucks

Knight at Arms
Might have to do with some Lords having high leadership & loyalty and honor perk. Tier 3+ troops basically don't panic with that.
According to bannerlordperks.com it's actually bugged and applies to Tier 2+ troops, so basically everyone under a high leadership lord is totally immune to morale mechanics!
If the guy who made that page is right, the perk seriously needs to be fixed; possibly by changing the perk to only apply to Tier 4+ troops.
 

Madijeis

Sergeant
WBNW
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I witnessed the Aserai withdrawing in an orderly manner. Archers and Infantry were in their actual formation while doing so, and they fought back (with melee weapons only, but they might've just spent all their ammo) their pursuers
 

ashize9879

Recruit
Yeah...I just noticed that in my battle as Kuzaits against the Western Empire and out of 500 men only 3 surrendered in a battle where I was dominating them with several hundred dead on their end vs 3 on my end.

Whilst I can see the benefits of like against looters being able to fight them all, in an overall look at it, I don't think this is good. It really detracts from the realism this game has done such a good job at.

If this is going to just be a game that breaks from realism then that will change its entire dynamic. Kind of makes me sad if they do that.

No offense to Tale World's, but...the morale may need to be balanced back, cause this is too unrealistic

I see what your going for though, as there have been too easy of troop breaks even while a battle is being won, so likely just some tinkering needs to occur

Like, if a line of infantry is breaking, I can see where a surrender would occur

If an entire line of archers and/or infantry is getting shot apart then yes, id expect people would start running.

If the line is being attacked, losing men, but reinforcements come and start beating back the enemy, then that would be a good example of morale not incurring a surrender.

Generally, men hold together until the fear sets in with their comrades around them falling a part. So...for instance likely if the commander of a group dies I would expect an increased rate of surrender due to the line being destroyed due to loss of command
 

CallmeWayne

Recruit
Generally, men hold together until the fear sets in with their comrades around them falling a part. So...for instance likely if the commander of a group dies I would expect an increased rate of surrender due to the line being destroyed due to loss of command
Yea just like in Total war, if you kill general you weaken their morale significantly and re easier to break. Tbh I was always killing general in warband :grin: .
More like force of habit, but here in Bannerlord its useless.
 

ashize9879

Recruit
True...although, I have had several interesting instances where the enemy general runs up against me and my men within the first 10 seconds by themselves, which usually ends with my sword through them or their head, or they get shot by my 100+ archers

The enemy force still somehow holds together with no running around ? even saw the Aserai do really complex formation maneuvering switching their shield wall to 4 directions in a continual rotation. Yeah, was weird

But yeah, killing higher ups should lower morale and cause issues on the battlefield

It is cool finding and killing generals though ?
 
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