(With Dev Replies) Development Now Feels Slower than Ever ... Do I Detect Another Code Refactor?

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Fate

Veteran
No, but it's also not Duh's job to communicate with us. He could stop it whenever he wanted since he's not a community manager.
It is important that we blame the right people, and the devs and even community managers to some extent are not the right people.

The people we should blame for poor communication is the people we never see on the forum, TW management.
I wasn't targeting Duh and I didn't take the other post as accusing him specifically

TW does desperately need community managers who actually do there jobs (I don't even know whose job that is for TW at this point). I know it's not Duh's job and he just tries to respond when he can and I think most people appreciate that
 

Dejan

Community Manager
WBNWVCM&B
Pretty please Dejan, bring up this question on the next meeting:

How can we relay all this info to the player on an expanded tutorial? Use images/pictures/videos to make it succint. A good game that makes it easy to learn is FrostPunk, free now on Epic Gamestore.
Mhm, this was brought up by LuciusDomitiusAurelianus on page 4, I'll bring it up.
 

folko1

Recruit
The underlying issue of captains on horses charging or advancing alone ahead of their formation has been brought up internally in a suggestion meeting before. It was noted then that this is not the desired behaviour and that we should resolve it with AI. At the moment, we already have a system in place which makes troops from the same formation charge together.

I recorded this video on e1.5.10 as an example of this behaviour (the mounted companion has a speed limit of the on-foot units in the formation):

But this system is voided if the cohesion of the formation is lost and they're told to charge. For example, if an individual troop is far from the intended spot in the formation at the time of the "Charge" order due to moving with his formation from point A to point B, then this troop will be considered "out of cohesion" and not given the speed limit of the formation and as such charge normally. This is not the final AI behaviour and we intend to make further improvements to this system.

In either case, your suggestion adds on top of this behaviour by making the hero stay behind the formation and not in the middle of it. I'll bring it to the suggestion meeting.
Speaking of charging, any chance for a sprint button or something? I mean my infantry, heck, even my archers outrun me in bandit hideouts.

And btw, in tournaments, there are some NPCs that literally charge at you with a lotta speed, and it's not like their normal walk speed, they alternate between a normal walk speed and charging speed. Why is that? Why can't we do that? We can double tap W on a horse to make it run faster, so why not double tap W to charge?
 

folko1

Recruit
Sure, I've discussed it with our mission wizard Burak and he was more than happy to oblige. Here's the list but keep in mind that it can change during EA.

no skill/no general hero:

Tactic Charge => everybody charges

general tactic skill 20 unlocks:

Attacking or defending:
Tactic Full Scale Attack => approach enemy in organized fashion and engage in melee, cavalry flanks etc.

Only when attacking:
Tactic Ranged Harrassment => approach to the effective range of our ranged formation and pepper enemy with ranged weapons; utilized in case of missile superiority

Only when defending:
Tactic Defensive Engagement => Choose terrain with advantageous slope to enemy approach and hold defensive position
Tactic Defensive Line => Choose a suitable tactical line(among those marked in scene) such as edge of a forest, side of a hill etc. depending on enemy approach direction and hold defensive line

general tactic skill 50 unlocks:

Attacking or defending:
Tactic Frontal Cavalry Charge => Approach in organized fashion with cavalry in center front, charge with cavalry and engage disorganized enemy with infantry and ranged; utilized in case of cavalry superiority/cavalry based army

Only when attacking:
Tactic Coordinated Retreat => Try to retreat to mission border in organized fashion before running away instead of being routed in case of a battle went wrong

Only when defending:
Tactic Defensive Ring => Choose a suitable position(among regions marked in scene) that can impede enemy cavalry movement such as in woods or swamp or difficult terrain and form infantry ring around ranged and hold; utilized in case of suitable numbers of infantry, ranged and enemy cavalry superiority
Tactic Hold Choke Point => Choose a suitable choke point(among positions marked in scene) and try to keep enemy confined to one side of it, depending on terrain, allowing ranged to take higher positions such as cliffs and riverbanks(among such marked in scene) not directly behind infantry cover, expecting the infantry to bar enemy reaching them; utilized in case of numerical disadvantage.
Speaking of archers on cliffs, I had a battle in the desert once and I saw a cliff and thought "Oh we gonna have some fun here" and decided to put my archers there.

They just stood there a few feet away from the edge and got absolutely smacked by the enemy archers that somehow managed to see and shoot them, but the friendly archers just decided they wanna be used as target practice for some reason. I tried ordering them closer to the edge but then they either became too grouped up to shoot or just straight up didn't even care and just stayed in the same place. I tried line formation and they just formed several ranks, I tried loose, still nothing.

Speaking of formations, what's the difference between loose and scatter?
 

Apocal

Grandmaster Knight
And btw, in tournaments, there are some NPCs that literally charge at you with a lotta speed, and it's not like their normal walk speed, they alternate between a normal walk speed and charging speed. Why is that? Why can't we do that? We can double tap W on a horse to make it run faster, so why not double tap W to charge?
Shield up vs. shield down vs. no shield equipped.
 
Great to see all Dev responses!

Would be great to see you over in the Suggestions section as well. There are a lot of potential :smile:
 

Blood Gryphon

Master Knight
WBVC
Speaking of archers on cliffs, I had a battle in the desert once and I saw a cliff and thought "Oh we gonna have some fun here" and decided to put my archers there.

They just stood there a few feet away from the edge and got absolutely smacked by the enemy archers that somehow managed to see and shoot them, but the friendly archers just decided they wanna be used as target practice for some reason. I tried ordering them closer to the edge but then they either became too grouped up to shoot or just straight up didn't even care and just stayed in the same place. I tried line formation and they just formed several ranks, I tried loose, still nothing.

Speaking of formations, what's the difference between loose and scatter?
You know I definitely experienced the same thing. Overall archers seem to have an issue with targeting enemies when much higher than them. It seems to be a line of sight issue. I mean siege any city and you'll see a bunch of inactive defensive archers on the walls, meanwhile the attacking archers are shooting at the the walls regardless of if the defenders are actually visible.

Line of sight also seems to be a major issue for circle formations, the archers essentially just sit in a pile and rarely shoot.
 
You know I definitely experienced the same thing. Overall archers seem to have an issue with targeting enemies when much higher than them. It seems to be a line of sight issue. I mean siege any city and you'll see a bunch of inactive defensive archers on the walls, meanwhile the attacking archers are shooting at the the walls regardless of if the defenders are actually visible.

Line of sight also seems to be a major issue for circle formations, the archers essentially just sit in a pile and rarely shoot.
+1
 
Would be great to see you over in the Suggestions section as well. There are a lot of potential :smile:
The UI Dev is very active on the UI suggestions. I think with the general suggestions there's so much that they have to curate first it and pass it to individual Devs.


In unrelated news the village idiot is back, harvesting 2 mins of reading into 20 minutes of rambling effort free youtube (non)content. How nice of us to make a thread so he doesn't have to play the game or know anything about it to have daily fluff dumps. For a second I thought maybe he learned a lesson....
 

panicFire

Regular
@Dejan any possibility of adding attack specific formation feature? I.e ordering infantry to attack infantry, cavalry etc. I don't mind if it's not going to be added as it is already available in mods (RTS camera) but it would make sense if it's already available in base game.
 

Dejan

Community Manager
WBNWVCM&B
Speaking of charging, any chance for a sprint button or something? I mean my infantry, heck, even my archers outrun me in bandit hideouts.
I don't think a sprint button is a solution to that, our recent rework of the athletics skill with e1.5.10 is most likely the cause of what you're describing. A nice feedback thread on that has been opened here, feel free to expand on it yourself as well.
Speaking of archers on cliffs, I had a battle in the desert once and I saw a cliff and thought "Oh we gonna have some fun here" and decided to put my archers there.

They just stood there a few feet away from the edge and got absolutely smacked by the enemy archers that somehow managed to see and shoot them, but the friendly archers just decided they wanna be used as target practice for some reason. I tried ordering them closer to the edge but then they either became too grouped up to shoot or just straight up didn't even care and just stayed in the same place. I tried line formation and they just formed several ranks, I tried loose, still nothing.
You know I definitely experienced the same thing. Overall archers seem to have an issue with targeting enemies when much higher than them. It seems to be a line of sight issue. I mean siege any city and you'll see a bunch of inactive defensive archers on the walls, meanwhile the attacking archers are shooting at the the walls regardless of if the defenders are actually visible.

Line of sight also seems to be a major issue for circle formations, the archers essentially just sit in a pile and rarely shoot.
Which game version are you using? We have done some changes in regards to this over the past few versions. Is it still happening? If yes, it would help a bunch if either of you could get a recording of what you're describing and post it here or in the support section.
The UI Dev is very active on the UI suggestions. I think with the general suggestions there's so much that they have to curate first it and pass it to individual Devs.
I am going over the Suggestions board regularly and we're discussing the community suggestions in dedicated meetings. So know that the board is being looked at and that the suggestions are being passed on.
any possibility of adding attack specific formation feature? I.e ordering infantry to attack infantry, cavalry etc. I don't mind if it's not going to be added as it is already available in mods (RTS camera) but it would make sense if it's already available in base game.
I will make sure to bring it up again.
 

dijiTurk

Sergeant Knight at Arms
WBNWVCM&BWF&S
I wonder if "mastery system(mp)" suggestion ever disscussed at meetings. I hope that there is an ongoing work for mastery system(for mp).
 
I am going over the Suggestions board regularly and we're discussing the community suggestions in dedicated meetings. So know that the board is being looked at and that the suggestions are being passed on.
Good to hear it´s looked into :smile: A short message or dev involvement in discussions would be very encouraging to posts/suggestions devs like. Many of the suggestions have hours of though and hard work behind them :smile:
 
If you can't get this through, please come back to the forum with the reason why it was rejected, so someone will write a polite, well-argued letter with a poll to show player support.
@Dejan Seriously though, I would like to know the reasoning too if it's still unwanted and also to just say I think this feature to target groups at specific groups/types would be very popular and go a long way to improve the enjoyment of battles. Even very old and rudimentary games will let you (in one way or another) direct units to attack other units specifically. It's very frustrating to not be able to do so.
 

panicFire

Regular
I will make sure to bring it up again.
Glad to hear it!
If it's required, do conduct a poll on reddit or steam to better guage the need for this feature.
I would also like to know if there are any plans on improving on-foot spear combat, specifically their performance in tight spaces such as shieldwalls where overhead spear thrusts should have been effective but it ends up getting blocked by friendly units most of the time. Sacrificing range to increase thrust speed for one handed performance will be helpful too. It also feels like it takes more time to ready the spear for a thrust, maybe reducing this will help?
 

folko1

Recruit
I don't think a sprint button is a solution to that, our recent rework of the athletics skill with e1.5.10 is most likely the cause of what you're describing. A nice feedback thread on that has been opened here, feel free to expand on it yourself as well.



Which game version are you using? We have done some changes in regards to this over the past few versions. Is it still happening? If yes, it would help a bunch if either of you could get a recording of what you're describing and post it here or in the support section.

I am going over the Suggestions board regularly and we're discussing the community suggestions in dedicated meetings. So know that the board is being looked at and that the suggestions are being passed on.

I will make sure to bring it up again.
Atm I am using the 1.5.9 main branch. I haven't touched the beta one yet because I'm playing with a few mods and I dunno if saves will carry over seeing as how this is EA.

And another thing I forgot, is cleave intended only for axes or will it be available to all 2h weapons? Atm, using a 2h sword without any mods doesn't really feel like I'm getting much for the big boy slash damage, so it's usefulness ends at dueling. Thankfully the hybrid handles exist so I can use a sword and board when in sieges or any other large scale battle, but overall, 2h on it's own doesn't feel like it gives me as a player any benefit over other weapons other than just wanting to look cool. Yeah there's an arrow deflection perk, but a shield can also do the job quite fine, and it's quite durable so the chances it'll break before a siege ends are slim at best.
 

Blood Gryphon

Master Knight
WBVC
Which game version are you using? We have done some changes in regards to this over the past few versions. Is it still happening? If yes, it would help a bunch if either of you could get a recording of what you're describing and post it here or in the support section.
Was happening in 1.5.10, but I was playing a save that was created on a previous version (early 1.5's, never modded). I'll make a fresh game and see if its still happening for circle formation and provide some proof.

Do you need more examples of siege defense archers not shooting? I've been playing around with the idea of creating a bunch of feedback for what is bugged in sieges, but obviously its a per map issue and since we haven't seen really any updates for sieges I figured the bugs are all mostly old news. Can you tell me if current sieges in 1.5.10 don't have a big bug update coming to them soon? Because if they don't then I don't mind going on this endeavor to evaluate all the sieges, but I'd prefer not to waste my time doing a big review of sieges if changes are already incoming.
 
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CannonBoe

Recruit
Which game version are you using? We have done some changes in regards to this over the past few versions. Is it still happening? If yes, it would help a bunch if either of you could get a recording of what you're describing and post it here or in the support section.
Hi. I'm not sure it's related, but I just had similar issue yesterday. Video here. As stated in the title on reddit, these units are mostly top tier, level 4+. It would be nice if they at least sought cover if they're not shooting. Also, in the same settlement, one of my lower tier archers kept missing the hole in the wall
20210609001540-1.jpg
 
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