Why were the siege battles fixed by a modder and not by TaleWorlds?

What could be the reason?

  • TaleWorlds completely remake the siege battles?

    Votes: 13 52.0%
  • TaleWorlds is holding back the fixes for a new mechanic?

    Votes: 12 48.0%

  • Total voters
    25

Users who are viewing this thread

Jella

Banned
>Why were the siege battles fixed by a modder and not by TaleWorlds
>keep buying games from tw
>sponsoring dem chicks
>whining about bugs n shiet
 

Spyware

Regular
Uh, I heard according to the modder that even he had to use the navmesh improperly, technically breaking the way sieges are conducted in order to let that happen which led to some pretty wonky results. I think that would definitely not be up to standards for release and since it wasn't used as intended, it might not work well with overall design as people would eventually just use it as a workaround.

Check Highlighted comment on the top via this link: youtube.com/watch?v=O8C0JEdPOp8&lc=UgyL0TMqaGkyePzuLtp4AaABAg
 

desmond dosh

Regular
WBVC
Once again modding saves a broken game. Thanks for sharing the mod.

The more this happens the more I feel like this is one of the reasons why some game developers are trying to make their games less modding friendly: it exposes their incompetence (or laziness).
 
I think that would definitely not be up to standards for release and since it wasn't used as intended, it might not work well with overall design as people would eventually just use it as a workaround.
Indeed, so the alternative is having the AI run circles around the bottom of the towers until they get wiped out by arrow fire. Truly up to standards for a release.

This is cognitive dissonance at its finest. TW have been doing what you said they shouldn't with just about every other aspect of the game, but I fear you won't acknowledge it since it goes against your statement.
 

Ser Jon

Squire
M&BWBWF&SNWVC
From the way that the mod author explains what he did and why the AI is so stupid, it sounds like something hard coded. Which means no official change unless they revamp it entirely. I don't know what they were thinking designing it like this...
 

Spyware

Regular
Indeed, so the alternative is having the AI run circles around the bottom of the towers until they get wiped out by arrow fire. Truly up to standards for a release.

This is cognitive dissonance at its finest. TW have been doing what you said they shouldn't with just about every other aspect of the game, but I fear you won't acknowledge it since it goes against your statement.
The pathing is used in general combat and I think that's pretty good. Just remember, even the modder said himself he had to use it in an unintended way to get it to work.
 

MadVader

Duke
M&BWB
The pathing is used in general combat and I think that's pretty good. Just remember, even the modder said himself he had to use it in an unintended way to get it to work.
Well, it's not pretty good if it fails in sieges, isn't it? You are basically saying "their pathfinding decisions are pretty good except when they are not good, so it's fine overall, who even plays sieges lol".
And the reason the modder artificially influenced their decision making is that he had no better options left as the pathfinding decisions are hardcoded. You are not blaming the modder for Taleworlds' decision to hardcode pathfinding stuff and keep it in a broken state, are you?
 
Indeed, so the alternative is having the AI run circles around the bottom of the towers until they get wiped out by arrow fire. Truly up to standards for a release.

This is cognitive dissonance at its finest. TW have been doing what you said they shouldn't with just about every other aspect of the game, but I fear you won't acknowledge it since it goes against your statement.
Just look at broken HA AI in 1.6.3 beta, they pushed it into 1.6.3 stable and 1.6.4 beta. HA AI was OK in 1.6.2. So much for standards.

Also the Siege Tower mod is good example of how more people trying to solve same issue is productive. We spent a lot of time in RBM trying to fix them via changing the AI directly. However limitations of modding did not allow us enough access to AI so we could not fix them. The other guy went outside of the box and used the AI that already exist by playing with already existing pathfinding rules. Another solution would be to simply modify castles directly, however they are not unlocked to modders, so community would have to make their own castles, in long term this might be probably the best solution given questionable design of current castles / towns.
 

Spyware

Regular
Well, it's not pretty good if it fails in sieges, isn't it? You are basically saying "their pathfinding decisions are pretty good except when they are not good, so it's fine overall, who even plays sieges lol".
And the reason the modder artificially influenced their decision making is that he had no better options left as the pathfinding decisions are hardcoded.
Anyone who has ever worked on a complex anything, not just modding, knows that that method is unsustainable. It is at best a stopgap, but cannot fill in its purpose in its entirety without causing more problems along the way in the grand scheme of things.

I mean, has anyone actually looked at how it actually played? Did you see the incredible wonk and jank? Though the Siege AI in the native Bannerlord only used one ladder, it was far more smoother than this one. In fact, this kind of looks weird at times and somewhat broke immersion for me with some gaps between the troops that formed up and how they all mosh pit each other. Yes, in terms of gameplay this is miles better because you don't frustratingly lose your troops needlessly climbing up on siege towers, but this cannot simply be the final solution.

You are not blaming the modder for Taleworlds' decision to hardcode pathfinding stuff and keep it in a broken state, are you?

What specific line or quote ever give you that idea? Why can't I be understanding of both? If anything, I'm just repeating his thoughts, straight from his mouth and his own perspectives and views. Some people here seem to conveniently ignore the modder's own opinions or own words, in an effort to twist it for their own agenda or manipulative narrative.
 

CrazyElf

Sergeant
Just look at broken HA AI in 1.6.3 beta, they pushed it into 1.6.3 stable and 1.6.4 beta. HA AI was OK in 1.6.2. So much for standards.

Also the Siege Tower mod is good example of how more people trying to solve same issue is productive. We spent a lot of time in RBM trying to fix them via changing the AI directly. However limitations of modding did not allow us enough access to AI so we could not fix them. The other guy went outside of the box and used the AI that already exist by playing with already existing pathfinding rules. Another solution would be to simply modify castles directly, however they are not unlocked to modders, so community would have to make their own castles, in long term this might be probably the best solution given questionable design of current castles / towns.

I wonder why Taleworlds is keeping the new 1.6.3 horse archer AI. They charge and get slaughtered, which is not what they are supposed to do. Circle and fire is the correct tactic for horse archers. Unless there is a bigger change they plan to implement later?


I think that at this point, until Taleworlds releases a proper fix, the siege tower mod is the best available solution.
 

Xavyn

Recruit
I think they got it worked out they are just waiting to use it as a justification for 1.6.5. Of course with other miscellaneous, non-descript changes and bug fixes and another pair of tier 2 Sturgian leather boots! Got to keep the machine moving toward to promise land... or at least they've finally caught on to it being a smart idea to at least attempt to convince the player base of such.
 
I wonder why Taleworlds is keeping the new 1.6.3 horse archer AI. They charge and get slaughtered, which is not what they are supposed to do. Circle and fire is the correct tactic for horse archers. Unless there is a bigger change they plan to implement later?


I think that at this point, until Taleworlds releases a proper fix, the siege tower mod is the best available solution.

There is no "new 1.6.3 horse archer AI", they broke ranged AI. If this issue makes it to this Friday without fix, it is going to be the fourth week.
 

vonbalt

Sergeant Knight
WBNWVCM&B
There is no "new 1.6.3 horse archer AI", they broke ranged AI. If this issue makes it to this Friday without fix, it is going to be the fourth week.
yup, it's simply broken, horse archers barely know where to aim now and they keep running and shooting arrows forward when the enemy is pursuing them from behind (wtf) or just turning their heads aimlessly as if trying to locate the target that's just next to them, i've also noticed HA sometimes just walk with their horses instead of running and get slaughtered as soon as anyone catches them.
 

CrazyElf

Sergeant
yup, it's simply broken, horse archers barely know where to aim now and they keep running and shooting arrows forward when the enemy is pursuing them from behind (wtf) or just turning their heads aimlessly as if trying to locate the target that's just next to them, i've also noticed HA sometimes just walk with their horses instead of running and get slaughtered as soon as anyone catches them.

Unfortunately, this often does happen in development - I hope that given that this was a regression that they can revert.

In the past, horse archers were arguably the most capable AI among the unit types.
 
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