Why the hell is the Tannery so overpowered?

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Yangbang

Sergeant
WBWF&SVC
Best answers
0
Most I had was 3, maybe more was allowed on high clan levels, but at this point workshops meager income was not relevant anymore.
That sounds about right. I play modded with unlimited workshops, but with troop recruitment and wages being much much higher. It really draws out early and mid game, but makes it so much more rewarding when you get your first fief and can have a true army of high tier troops.

I didn't like how in vanilla, that if you could score big one time, you could easily fund a small to mid size elite army. At that point you just walk around beating everyone up while slowly getting bigger and bigger.
 

artemis_entreri

Regular
Best answers
0
Yep, would be nice to get a campaign difficulty setting.


Pravend.


Concerning Warband, there are big differeces compared to Bannerlord. You can have 14 workshops but you usually will receive profit from 10-11 (due to wars). You have to wait 20 weeks until you get back your investment for dyeworks (just 4 weeks to get back your money with tanneries), so it is not as easy to become rich like in Bannerlord. Plus take in mind that you can get 10k weekly as much in Warband if you have all possible workshops, while in Bannerlord you get +21K weekly from 6 tanneries.

Yes, wages are also daily in Bannerlord but then you compare weekly wages in Bannerlord with weekly wages in Warband, and you will notice that the different is much smaller than money ingress difference.



Totally agree with this.


My actual problem with Tannery Workshops is that they are profitable everywhere and you do not even need to check the near villages production.

I know that I simply could not use tanneries but It is just about giving feedback to balance the game. An easy game usually means that people get bored faster because they are able to explore every single aspect of the game with easy and It really kills replayability.
I'm seeing an average of 300 a day for a Tannery in Pravend. Not sure how you are getting those 800+ values. Again, in way too many hours of play time I've not seen much more over 400. I think I get 485 or so in Chaikland.
 

Nakh

Sergeant
Best answers
0
I'm seeing an average of 300 a day for a Tannery in Pravend. Not sure how you are getting those 800+ values. Again, in way too many hours of play time I've not seen much more over 400. I think I get 485 or so in Chaikland.
Workshop profits related to overall prosperity, which is currently out of control. There is thread about food shortages in single-player subforum, a lot of interesting information could be found there, developer responses included.
 

Lord Irontoe

Master Knight
Best answers
0
I don't understand the argument that slowing down early game progression improves replayability. If anything, its the opposite. If the early game's a slog, then you're going to be much less likely to want to start a new game.
 
Best answers
0
So... All you really have to do right now is look over this and select cities with two bound villages with cow, sheep, or hog, or any combination of that. That city will have an "OP tannery".
For the record I think that the tannery is right and the rest of the workshops are wrong, especially late game. My current party of 180 costs everything my OP tanneries produce.
Faction
Northern Empire
Senator Lucon
Argoron
Fish​
Hardwood
Epicrotea
Iron Ore
Grain​
Fish​
Amprela
Cotton​
Flax​
Diathma
Fish​
Midlands Palfrey​
Myzea
Midlands Palfrey​
Midlands Palfrey​
Cotton​
Saneopa
Grain​
Midlands Palfrey​
Faction
Southern Empire
Empress Rhagaea
Lycaron
Sheep
Midlands Palfrey​
Danustica
Salt​
Sheep
Clay​
Onira
Sheep
Flax​
Fur​
Phycaon
Clay​
Grain​
Poros
Midlands Palfrey​
Sheep
Sheep
Syronea
Grain​
Fish​
Vostrum
Grain​
Grain​
Salt​
Faction
Western Empire
Garios
Zeonica
Midlands Palfrey​
Grain​
Grain​
Amitatys
Grain​
Midlands Palfrey​
Jalmarys
Midlands Palfrey​
Grain​
Lageta
Hog
Hardwood
Ortysia
Olives​
Salt​
Silver Ore​
Rhotae
Cow
Grain​
Grain​


Faction
Aserai
Sultan Unqid
Quyaz
Fish​
Olives​
Dates​
Askar
Desert Horse​
Grain​
Grain​
Hubyar
Desert Horse​
Silver Ore​
Flax​
Husn Fulq
Dates​
Desert Horse​
Iyakis
Grain​
Clay​
Qasira
Grain​
Fish​
Razih
Salt​
Dates​
Fish​
Sanala
Grain​
Grain​
Fish​
Faction
Vlandia
King Derthert
Galend
Grapes​
Fish​
Olives​
Charas
Midlands Palfrey​
Olives​
Jaculan
Olives​
Sheep
Olives​
Ocs Hall
Hardwood
Clay​
Flax​
Ostican
Fish​
Grapes​
Olives​
Pravend
Hog
Grain​
Hog
Rovalt
Iron Ore
Grain​
Sargot
Flax​
Grain​
Faction
Sturgia
Prince Raganvad
Balgard
Flax​
Flax​
Omor
Grain​
Fish​
Revyl
Fish​
Grain​
Sibir
Cow
Cow
Hardwood
Tyal
Sheep
Cow
Varcheg
Flax​
Fish​
Varnovapol
Fish​
Hog
Iron Ore
Faction
Khuzait
Monchug
Makeb
Salt​
Iron Ore
Fish​
Akkalat
Steppe Horse​
Sheep
Baltakhand
Sheep
Flax​
Steppe Horse​
Chaikand
Grain​
Fur​
Grain​
Odokh
Steppe Horse​
Sheep
Clay​
Ortongard
Steppe Horse​
Sheep
Cow
Faction
Battania
King Caladog
Marunath
Grain​
Hardwood
Iron Ore
Car Banseth
Fur​
Grapes​
Hardwood
Dunglanys
Grapes​
Hardwood
Hog
Pen Cannoc
Clay​
Clay​
Clay​
Seonon
Iron Ore
Hardwood
Cow


 

chemical_art

Recruit
Best answers
0
Tannerys output products do not fluctuate in price or demand which on average leads to higher passive income relatively. It helps leather is only used by tanners so demand is constant as well. Inputs and Outputs that fluctuate can have higher potential income but are very vulnerable to bottlenecks on the input or output in.
One with a similar situation, iron ore, is subject to players interest in smithing generally (thus more demand for inputs) and the list of outputs are smaller so in profit lags behind.
 

xdj1nn

Knight
WBWF&S
Best answers
0
So... All you really have to do right now is look over this and select cities with two bound villages with cow, sheep, or hog, or any combination of that. That city will have an "OP tannery".
For the record I think that the tannery is right and the rest of the workshops are wrong, especially late game. My current party of 180 costs everything my OP tanneries produce.
Faction
Northern Empire
Senator Lucon
Argoron
Fish​
Hardwood
Epicrotea
Iron Ore
Grain​
Fish​
Amprela
Cotton​
Flax​
Diathma
Fish​
Midlands Palfrey​
Myzea
Midlands Palfrey​
Midlands Palfrey​
Cotton​
Saneopa
Grain​
Midlands Palfrey​
Faction
Southern Empire
Empress Rhagaea
Lycaron
Sheep
Midlands Palfrey​
Danustica
Salt​
Sheep
Clay​
Onira
Sheep
Flax​
Fur​
Phycaon
Clay​
Grain​
Poros
Midlands Palfrey​
Sheep
Sheep
Syronea
Grain​
Fish​
Vostrum
Grain​
Grain​
Salt​
Faction
Western Empire
Garios
Zeonica
Midlands Palfrey​
Grain​
Grain​
Amitatys
Grain​
Midlands Palfrey​
Jalmarys
Midlands Palfrey​
Grain​
Lageta
Hog
Hardwood
Ortysia
Olives​
Salt​
Silver Ore​
Rhotae
Cow
Grain​
Grain​


Faction
Aserai
Sultan Unqid
Quyaz
Fish​
Olives​
Dates​
Askar
Desert Horse​
Grain​
Grain​
Hubyar
Desert Horse​
Silver Ore​
Flax​
Husn Fulq
Dates​
Desert Horse​
Iyakis
Grain​
Clay​
Qasira
Grain​
Fish​
Razih
Salt​
Dates​
Fish​
Sanala
Grain​
Grain​
Fish​
Faction
Vlandia
King Derthert
Galend
Grapes​
Fish​
Olives​
Charas
Midlands Palfrey​
Olives​
Jaculan
Olives​
Sheep
Olives​
Ocs Hall
Hardwood
Clay​
Flax​
Ostican
Fish​
Grapes​
Olives​
Pravend
Hog
Grain​
Hog
Rovalt
Iron Ore
Grain​
Sargot
Flax​
Grain​
Faction
Sturgia
Prince Raganvad
Balgard
Flax​
Flax​
Omor
Grain​
Fish​
Revyl
Fish​
Grain​
Sibir
Cow
Cow
Hardwood
Tyal
Sheep
Cow
Varcheg
Flax​
Fish​
Varnovapol
Fish​
Hog
Iron Ore
Faction
Khuzait
Monchug
Makeb
Salt​
Iron Ore
Fish​
Akkalat
Steppe Horse​
Sheep
Baltakhand
Sheep
Flax​
Steppe Horse​
Chaikand
Grain​
Fur​
Grain​
Odokh
Steppe Horse​
Sheep
Clay​
Ortongard
Steppe Horse​
Sheep
Cow
Faction
Battania
King Caladog
Marunath
Grain​
Hardwood
Iron Ore
Car Banseth
Fur​
Grapes​
Hardwood
Dunglanys
Grapes​
Hardwood
Hog
Pen Cannoc
Clay​
Clay​
Clay​
Seonon
Iron Ore
Hardwood
Cow


Cool table, only that you've skipped many towns' 4th village, which are, in fact, the really op thing in the game currently. You get 2 towns with 4 villages you're settled forever, you'll never think about income again, and workshops become trivial. On the other hand, if you own 2 castles you're going to get bankrupt or become handicapped for wars because you'll be unable to field a proper army, and if you sacrifice a garrison to do so your fiefs will be taken really fast.
 

Dabos37

Knight
Best answers
0
I don't understand the argument that slowing down early game progression improves replayability. If anything, its the opposite. If the early game's a slog, then you're going to be much less likely to want to start a new game.
It is not about slowing down early game, It is about increasing difficulty to get money during all the campaign and avoiding people becoming rich too easy and being able to be king since day 300-400.

Then you are able to explore everything really fast and simply get bored and start thinking the game lacks content (which is true), but having explored everything about the game with easy, just makes It more evident. Maybe It is just the way I play, but if I find a Game challenging which punish my mistakes, then I find myself restarting campaigns until do It ok and trying to find a better plan for the next try. But yes, I have to admit that maybe I have a weird habit and most of the people just continue with the first campaign and try to do It better.

Anyway, currently it is simply to hard to make It wrong and you will be easily swiming in gold the first couple of days.
 

Dabos37

Knight
Best answers
0
So... All you really have to do right now is look over this and select cities with two bound villages with cow, sheep, or hog, or any combination of that. That city will have an "OP tannery".
For the record I think that the tannery is right and the rest of the workshops are wrong, especially late game. My current party of 180 costs everything my OP tanneries produce.
Faction
Northern Empire
Senator Lucon
Argoron
Fish​
Hardwood
Epicrotea
Iron Ore
Grain​
Fish​
Amprela
Cotton​
Flax​
Diathma
Fish​
Midlands Palfrey​
Myzea
Midlands Palfrey​
Midlands Palfrey​
Cotton​
Saneopa
Grain​
Midlands Palfrey​
Faction
Southern Empire
Empress Rhagaea
Lycaron
Sheep
Midlands Palfrey​
Danustica
Salt​
Sheep
Clay​
Onira
Sheep
Flax​
Fur​
Phycaon
Clay​
Grain​
Poros
Midlands Palfrey​
Sheep
Sheep
Syronea
Grain​
Fish​
Vostrum
Grain​
Grain​
Salt​
Faction
Western Empire
Garios
Zeonica
Midlands Palfrey​
Grain​
Grain​
Amitatys
Grain​
Midlands Palfrey​
Jalmarys
Midlands Palfrey​
Grain​
Lageta
Hog
Hardwood
Ortysia
Olives​
Salt​
Silver Ore​
Rhotae
Cow
Grain​
Grain​


Faction
Aserai
Sultan Unqid
Quyaz
Fish​
Olives​
Dates​
Askar
Desert Horse​
Grain​
Grain​
Hubyar
Desert Horse​
Silver Ore​
Flax​
Husn Fulq
Dates​
Desert Horse​
Iyakis
Grain​
Clay​
Qasira
Grain​
Fish​
Razih
Salt​
Dates​
Fish​
Sanala
Grain​
Grain​
Fish​
Faction
Vlandia
King Derthert
Galend
Grapes​
Fish​
Olives​
Charas
Midlands Palfrey​
Olives​
Jaculan
Olives​
Sheep
Olives​
Ocs Hall
Hardwood
Clay​
Flax​
Ostican
Fish​
Grapes​
Olives​
Pravend
Hog
Grain​
Hog
Rovalt
Iron Ore
Grain​
Sargot
Flax​
Grain​
Faction
Sturgia
Prince Raganvad
Balgard
Flax​
Flax​
Omor
Grain​
Fish​
Revyl
Fish​
Grain​
Sibir
Cow
Cow
Hardwood
Tyal
Sheep
Cow
Varcheg
Flax​
Fish​
Varnovapol
Fish​
Hog
Iron Ore
Faction
Khuzait
Monchug
Makeb
Salt​
Iron Ore
Fish​
Akkalat
Steppe Horse​
Sheep
Baltakhand
Sheep
Flax​
Steppe Horse​
Chaikand
Grain​
Fur​
Grain​
Odokh
Steppe Horse​
Sheep
Clay​
Ortongard
Steppe Horse​
Sheep
Cow
Faction
Battania
King Caladog
Marunath
Grain​
Hardwood
Iron Ore
Car Banseth
Fur​
Grapes​
Hardwood
Dunglanys
Grapes​
Hardwood
Hog
Pen Cannoc
Clay​
Clay​
Clay​
Seonon
Iron Ore
Hardwood
Cow


Are you maybe paying for 180 Fians :wink:

(Even if you have 180 Fians, you only would have to pay 2160 denars daily. 4 tanneries are more than enough to cover this OP army. The problem is if you decide to upgrade these Fians to Fians champions, and then you would need 6 tanneries)

Talking seriously, thanks for the villages production info :smile:
 
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Best answers
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Are you maybe paying for 180 Fians :wink:

(Even if you have 180 Fians, you only would have to pay 2160 denars daily. 4 tanneries are more than enough to cover this OP army. The problem is if you upgrade these Fians to Fians champions, and then you would need 6 tanneries)
4 tanners at 450 is 1800, not 2200. I'm running a mix of infantry and archers of the imperial variety. Army of about 180 is costing 1700-1800 a day. I've hit steward 275 and clan tier 4, so that army will get larger as i get intelligence 10 and steward 300+ and clan tier 5+. Before kingdom policies that will add another 130 to that. I guess I'll have an army around 350 strong at some point. That's roughly twice what I have now so daily 3400-3600, but I'll only get at most two more workshops by then, meaning they will no longer cover my army costs.

There are three towns with 4 villages, but they aren't relevant to tannery production. Seonon is probably the best town in the game, with iron, hardwood, cow, and pony. Sanala has 3 grain and 1 fish, and Jaculan has 2 olives, 1 sheep, and 1 fish. Not really relevant to workshops.

Also, these guys eat entire towns worth of food. A few cities are literally out of denars and food, with prosperity in the double digits. I doubt this is intended and I'll likely share it in video when its complete.

While I'm here ... the Sanala / Askar region has enough grain for like, the whole world.
 
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Dabos37

Knight
Best answers
0
4 tanners at 450 is 1800, not 2200. I'm running a mix of infantry and archers of the imperial variety. Army of about 180 is costing 1700-1800 a day. I've hit steward 275 and clan tier 4, so that army will get larger as i get intelligence 10 and steward 300+ and clan tier 5+. Before kingdom policies that will add another 130 to that. I guess I'll have an army around 350 strong at some point. That's roughly twice what I have now so daily 3400-3600, but I'll only get at most two more workshops by then, meaning they will no longer cover my army costs.

There are three towns with 4 villages, but they aren't relevant to tannery production. Seonon is probably the best town in the game, with iron, hardwood, cow, and pony. Sanala has 3 grain and 1 fish, and Jaculan has 2 olives, 1 sheep, and 1 fish. Not really relevant to workshops.
My tanneries are giving me 400-600 most of the times. Anyway, I was just joking.

On the other hand, just thinking that I can pay almost 100 Fian Champions with only 4 tanneries makes me sad. It is an abomination in my eyes.

Plus you are forgeting caravans, fiefs income, loot, plundering, etc. The idea to pay wages of full elite armies just with workshops seems wrong for me and this is one of the reasons because we are swiming in gold in every campaign.
 
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Nakh

Sergeant
Best answers
0
My tanneries are giving me 400-600 most of the times. Anyway, I was just joking.

On the other hand, just thinking that I can pay almost 100 Fian Champions with only 4 tanneries makes me sad. It is an abomination in my eyes.

Plus you are forgeting caravans, fiefs income, loot, plundering, etc. The idea to pay wages just with workshops seems wrong for me and this is one of the reasons because we are swiming in gold in every campaign.
My caravans do not survive 2-3 weeks if I'm in war. Caravan AI dumb enough to go right into enemy territory for no reason.
 
Best answers
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Nah, not a serious thing, it's a game. I just always have that tone. Caravans and all I think I have about 7k passive at tier 4 which is actually a little low, but the economy is stuggling this time around, as mentioned. I'm around 1.5m denars, day 700 ish. Last time 1m wasn't enough to propel my kingdom without getting to the point where I could not afford peace and so on, as detailed in other posts of mine. This time, I'm thinking 5 million gold, army of 350, clan tier 5 of 4 parties of about 80 each... 670 army should give a fighting chance if I can get a vassal or two. Ten hours of killing lords has given me a lot of relations and we'll see it that pans out.

But really, 400-500 a day per workshop? Lol, it's not op. It's just more than you need early game.

If you want your caravans to survive, kill all looters you find above 25 or so in number (don't let them outnumber your caravans) even when you don't need to, outfit your caravan leaders with good gear, and form them with the better troops option. I'm losing about 1 a year but that's a good chance to add equipment and skills to the companion and send them back on the road.
 

Dabos37

Knight
Best answers
0
This is the thing. Devs have detected that we are getting tons of money, so making peace, recruiting lords, etc, cost an insane amount of gold. It is just an attempt to empty the players' pockets in a wrong way IMO. What if you want to play as vassal? If It is the case, you would have infinite money and full elite army to defeat everyone.

Decreasing income while also decreasing making peace, armors and recruiting lords, is the best way to balance economy IMO.

And yes, It is just a game and It is not the end of the world if TW do not nerf tanneries. The problem that many people are not seeing is that as long as we continue being able to get money as easy as It is now, some things like armors, making peace, etc, will continue being insanely expensive. I personally prefer the Warband economy where the best armors (without modifications) just cost 6-8K and getting money is harder. It just makes much more sense for me and feels much more balanced.
 
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It's really hard to have it both ways.

If you want to play as vassal nothing stops you, but you won't get the kingdom bonus for parties as ruler, and you might get the 50 man bonus. Your life as a vassal is much easier and perhaps more influential. You can build a large army capable of winning the war for your kingdom, but that is kind of the idea anyway. You'll have a large enough gold stash to create a kingdom at some point, and inflation of prices is to be expected.

For the kingdom play to exist there has to be another level economically above that of vassal and a bridge to reaching it. That bridge is the combination of workshops, loot, and caravans, and maybe, but not usually, well protected fiefs. Fiefs on the front line are not money makers, they either are a wash or a loss. If you have well protected fiefs your kingdom is probably winning and that will create its own big problem later if you want to keep those holdings when you go independent. If you're losing, you'll have to defend these or let them go, in which case it didn't matter a lot to you economically. I'm of the opinion that if the king won't defend it neither will I, I'm not losing an army that took years to train over a fief we got last week. I'm further of the opinion that I can go to war as a clan with no fiefs at all and kill your lords for profit, and you have little ability to find me if I don't want to be found. That's more ideal to me than being a vassal, but I have aims of creating a kingdom, not supporting theirs. As a clan I want to keep the other kingdoms in check so that when I start I'm not facing a giant snowball. You also need to train charm and gain relations and this is easier from this angle.

That aside - there is another level of play above that of vassal. It's really hard to insulate that against the smaller scale early game and to be quite honest I think they've done about as well as you can so far with that. This topic probably deserves its own thread, though it's related, it's reaching beyond the scope of the thread.
 

AfLIcTeD

Sergeant
Best answers
0
It doesn't really matter if tanneries get nerfed or not beacause everyone knows that winning battles are the best source of money. Even if it is just looters. Nobody is becoming a millionaire with workshops. All it will do is screw over those that don't play blood thirsty warlords.
Although if they do implement the ability to upgrade workshops then I can see tanneries getting a nerf.
 

Badcritter

Squire
Best answers
0
Any analogy breaks down with too much prodding, but still, game balancing works with very similar dynamics. The small dev team, per person, is way smarter and more knowledgeable than any one of us schmucks. And they even have their own experiences play-testing the game.
There's no question the wisdom of the crowd has value, and I agree with the crowd we have a sample here that workshop income is on the low side in general and should probably be closer to where Tanneries currently are (though I re-iterate, Tanneries appear to perform as they do because of a supply and demand bug with Leather and should still be fixed in isolation of a general increase in workshop performance to get them all to a similar profit level).

It is worth noting that our "crowd" in this case really only represents the very hardcore Bannerlord player. This forum has 253,041 members, less than 10% of the players of the game, and most of those members lurk. Prolific posters on this forum are the 1 percenters of Bannerlord, and so we shouldn't be assumed to speak for everyone. It should also be noted that hardcore players play the game more than almost everyone on the dev team does, QA being the exception. That gives a different kind of knowledge, a different perspective. This is useful, but once again hardcores need to realise their perspective is not the only one.

The designer's intuition and metrics must play an even bigger part when working out the casual player's experience and how to make that experience compelling and worthwhile. You can get some direct engagement with casual players with an appropriate playtesting outreach program, but it is hard to sustain engagement through changes and keep a flow of fresh casual testers who are willing and able to provide actionable feeback.
 

Bannerman Man

C# Sleuth
Knight
Best answers
0
Ah, Badcritter got there first and made a lot of the same points I was going to make haha, but I'll go ahead and finish my comment anyway because I think it adds to the discussion.

Thus, I think it's worth commenting on just how many people are reporting similar dissatisfaction with the balance between passive vs. active income sources in constituting total player income.
Couldn't that just be because the people who are satisfied with the direction of the game typically aren't going to go through the hassle of making an account on a niche forum simply to state that they're happy with what the devs are doing? How sure are we that the members of this forum, as well as the subreddit, are a true representation of how the community feels as a whole? This forum could be skewed toward people with a negative opinion of the game or the developers, who just came here to voice their frustrations.

The wisdom of the crowds is for sure a neat phenomenon, but I think it's a bit overrated, especially in the context of game development. The wisdom of the crowds tends to work best when there is an actual correct answer to a question, such as, "How many Jelly Beans are in this jar?" It starts to fall apart when it attempts to answer a subjective question, such as, "How should this game be balanced?"

People tend to fall back on their biases when they can't see (or flat out choose to ignore) the broader picture. In this case, these biases would include things like personal playstyle preferences, cynical personality types, past experiences with Early Access, negative feelings about the developers, and herd mentality/peer pressure. Nobody here has full knowledge about how this game works or where it's headed other than the ones who are making it.

Here is a nice concise article about the pitfalls of collective judgement. I'll outline some of the basic points of the article (but it's short and worth a read):
One requirement for a good crowd judgement is that people’s decisions are independent of one another. If everyone let themselves be influenced by each other’s guesses, there’s more chance that the guesses will drift towards a misplaced bias.
[...]
The researchers found that, as the amount of information participants were given about each others guesses increased, the range of their guesses got narrower, and the centre of this range could drift further from the true value. In other words, the groups were tending towards a consensus, to the detriment of accuracy.
The Swiss team commented that this detrimental herding effect is likely to be even greater for deciding problems for which no objectively correct answer exists, which perhaps explains how democratic countries occasionally elect such astonishingly inept leaders.
In a theoretical model of group decision-making, a diverse group of problem-solvers made a better collective guess than that produced by the group of best-performing solvers. In other words, diverse minds do better, when their decisions are averaged, than expert minds.
A study in 2011 by a team led by Joseph Simmons of the Yale School of Management in New Haven, Connecticut found that group predictions about American football results were skewed away from the real outcomes by the over-confidence of the fans’ decisions, which biased them towards alleged 'favourites' in the outcomes of games.
All of these findings suggest that knowing who is in the crowd, and how diverse they are, is vital before you attribute to them any real wisdom.
This forum is still a good place for discussion, suggestions, and other things, but I'd hesitate to base any critical balance decisions on the collective consensus of its most prolific commenters (no offense intended, I'm probably one of them). That doesn't mean that players can't provide valuable feedback or make good suggestions; of course they can. It also doesn't mean that the developers can't make mistakes in game design either.

Bonus food for thought from a couple reddit posts.
 
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