Why Sturgia often grows weak, Khuzait often grows strong

[Pejot]

Yes currently mercenary troops are less in numbers and only avaliable at towns and mostly (50%) level 11 watchmen. I was thinking similar solutions with what you offer. Mercenaries should be more important at game and especially rich kingdoms must easily increase their party sizes with them to recover after losses. Will think some improvements in these issues.

Maybe there's a possibility to add a character to every town that allows to recruit only mercenaries. Like notables but with mercanry as only available troop. This would allow to recruit better troops from cities but still not best troops.

 

[durbal]

Please ignore this comment

I said it slightly in jest, but if the only options are:

1. Have the AI operating under one set of economic rules and the player under different ones (caravans and workshops, free gold)
2. Both players and AI operating udner the same rules

Then I'd go with option 2.

 

[Earth Dragon]

Yes currently mercenary troops are less in numbers and only avaliable at towns and mostly (50%) level 11 watchmen. I was thinking similar solutions with what you offer. Mercenaries should be more important at game and especially rich kingdoms must easily increase their party sizes with them to recover after losses. Will think some improvements in these issues.

I would like to see mercenaries from other cultures show up at times. To include the minor factions if appropriate for that faction.
This could help on a few fronts:

1- Easier to load back up on troops if you had multiple mercenary pools available in a city to include a chance for multiple to be available at once
2 - Makes every city more unique as to the culture and cross-cultures and sub-cultures of those cities
3 - Makes the game more immersive in general and really gives player a reason to speak to contacts at the local establishments
4 - is a natural way to saturate the map with the more thematic parts of a factions roster.
Thanks for the comma as always Mexxico! The hard work is appreciated and it’s understandable that these are complex issues to iron out with multiple angles to view them

 

[whentheragequithappens]

1. this is advantage for player not npcs. If npcs can have caravans and workshops i have less problem in lords going bankrupt issue. Because these are very important income sources. Lords not having these assets is not my decision. I wanted some npc lords to have caravans workshops also. However it is not wanted.
2. they get only 25% of their party size as free troops when they respawn after escaping from captivity this will reduce 10% soon. this is very minor advantage. If party size is 100, currently they get 25 troops free soon it will be only 10. 10 x 100 (average troop cost) = 1000 after each spawn, this is very minor in all economy. You can examine tables I shared how important 1K is. If you ask "if it is not important why you give 25% troops at respawn" answer is to save lords at their first day otherwise they can catch by bandits on their first travels after respawn.
3. they have predetermined set of armor / weapon and it is stable, player do not have to spend huge amounts on his armor or weapons to get extra +2 +3 because he is only one troop, effect of this is not huge in battles. These are only money sinks. Also player can kill 20-30-40 people on a battle but ai lords cannot do this. I want to see they can also do but this is mission ai team's area I cannot make improvements at this.
4. this is not true, they also spend gold in peace treaties which is done between npc clans (for example if vlandia in a bad situation in a war vlandian king pay gold to make peace with another npc kingdom).
5. this is not true, they also get negatif relation.
6. this is not true, they pay garrisons.

very suprised about number 1; thought NPC caravans belong to lords as it should be. I hope lords having workshops (also will improve relation mechanic as workshops are limited in number so npcs and players have to compete) and caravans (at least 1 per lord; improves lord eco and raiding mechanics; also relation mechanic) implemented in future.
about number 6; players and lord must pay less to garrison troops. and maybe militia can be paid during seiges?
BTW im happy with number2.

 

[Earth Dragon]

I said it slightly in jest, but if the only options are:

1. Have the AI operating under one set of economic rules and the player under different ones (caravans and workshops, free gold)
2. Both players and AI operating udner the same rules

Then I'd go with option 2.

Fair enough.

the issue is that from the ground up, shops in particular were built as a player only system. You are always able to purchase whatever shop you want from whereever you want in this system.

You also lose these shops when if in an opposing kingdom and they go to war with a faction you are allied with/own.

So not only would this cause excessive amounts of turmoil if lords could waltz in and buy shops from each other, the AI would never properly gauge risk vs reward of where to establish their shops.

I don’t think the system is bad, and I feel other necessary differences, such as AI lords get high grade armor automatically, they get a retinue of elite troops on respawn (which needs to be there guys, play a mod that gets rid of it if you want easy mode) and perhaps even a shop equivalent and caravan equivalent base monthly income would be more appropriate.

If AI lords get +50 gold per month per clan tier “just because”, this seems like a better middle ground to account for all those other things they are doing, but not being accounted for. These bonuses could have a faction-wide debuff for a couple days everytime a caravan is lost that faction controlled. AI and player differences are always needed both to avoid players finding easier exploits and to control the complex web of AI issues making it too easy or too difficult with its associated domino effects when you make a change.

Edit: that innate bonus could also be based on the trade values of all the leaders. .1 denars per total trade value per day per tier. Or in other words (TTV *0.1)CT = bonus denars per day.

 

[xdj1nn]

Maybe there's a possibility to add a character to every town that allows to recruit only mercenaries. Like notables but with mercanry as only available troop. This would allow to recruit better troops from cities but still not best troops.

if they work like notables, it would suck ass.... They need to have "infinite" supply (as in, limits only to single lords, but all lords could recruit from the guy, something like 10 times the pool of soldiers a notable has), else there's no point on using mercenaries.

 

[Pejot]

if they work like notables, it would suck ass.... They need to have "infinite" supply (as in, limits only to single lords, but all lords could recruit from the guy, something like 10 times the pool of soldiers a notable has), else there's no point on using mercenaries.

I should extend my idea to a mercenary notable with infinite number of available troops but with higher recruiting cost. Available for player and NPC.

Edit: or maybe not infinite but refreshing more often than normal notables. Maybe with more units available than other notables.

 

[xdj1nn]

I should extend my idea to a mercenary notable with infinite number of available troops but with higher recruiting cost. Available for player and NPC.

Edit: or maybe not infinite but refreshing more often than normal notables. Maybe with more units available than other notables.

hmmm I like that, like 5x the speed of a notable to create new troops, and, of mixed tiers! Sounds good, really good =)

 

[Pejot]

hmmm I like that, like 5x the speed of a notable to create new troops, and, of mixed tiers! Sounds good, really good =)

And add to that that all windows would be available to player and NPC no matter the relations but on highest difficulty normal notables won't offer troops below 10 relation. This way start game will depend only on mercs for player until he works his way to get other units. Of course this would be an option so nobody's forces to use it.

 

[xdj1nn]

And add to that that all windows would be available to player and NPC no matter the relations but on highest difficulty normal notables won't offer troops below 10 relation. This way start game will depend only on mercs for player until he works his way to get other units. Of course this would be an option so nobody's forces to use it.

Someone please give this guy a award hahaha

 

[mexxico]

Actually in current 1.2 and 1.3 versions we have a great problem more important than all these stuff (today I see this weird relation penalty by chance while examining something not related) :

Currently if a lord lost a town he/she can lose 350 relation with king as you see in screenshot (because settlement value is calculated as 7M). Relation penalty formula is (settlement value / 20K). Settlement values are increased about 5x in last 1 month (i think because of barter issues) however side effects of this increase is not tested / controlled well. This make weak kingdoms weaker. In example when Sturgia or Aserai lose a settlement its old owner's biggest enemy become king and when clan lost its last settlement they defect just after because of -100 relation with king. I changed this formula to Sqrt(settlementValue / 100K) also we added 25 / 50 (castle / town) influence penalty to clan who lost its settlement.

In this gameplay 3 major clans defected from Western Empire in just one year because of this bug, as you see all these 3 defected clans has worst relation with their old king (Garios) among all of their enemies. Probably all three clans lose 1-2 settlements at first year and be enemy (-100 relation) with their king.

Anyway we will send a patch to fix all these issues today or tomorrow. Also I reduced 30% cavalry advantage constant at battle simulations to 20%, this change will be at that patch too. However I could not totally remove it for now because it is not our team's feature / addition. I will make more tests and inform people added that constant. Also in patch there will be better and more mercenary troops in taverns. Also raiding relation penalties will be 50% decreased and lords will start spawning with 10% of their party size is filled with initial troops finally and even you release them (prisoner lords) they will not spawn at least 2 days.

 

[Dabos37]

Actually in current 1.2 and 1.3 versions we have a great problem more important than all these stuff (today i see this while examining other stats) :

Currently if a lord lost a town he/she can lose 350 relation with king as you see in screenshot (because settlement value is calculated as 7M). Because relation penalty formula is (settlement value / 20K). Settlement values are increased about 5x in last 1 month (i think because of barter issues) however side effects of this increase is not tested / controlled well. This make weak kingdoms weaker. In example when Sturgia or Aserai lose a settlement its old owner's biggest enemy become king and when clan lost its last settlement they defect just after because of -100 relation with king. I changed this formula to Sqrt(settlementValue / 100K) also we added 25 / 50 (castle / town) influence penalty to clan who lost its settlement.

In this gameplay 3 major clans defected from Western Empire in just one year because of this bug, as you see these 3 defected clan has worst relation with their old king (Garios) among all of their enemies :

Anyway we will send a patch to fix all these issues today or tomorrow. Also I reduced 30% cavalry advantage constant at battle simulations to 20%, this change will be at that patch too. However I could not totally remove it for now because it is not my feature / addition. I will make more tests and inform people added that constant. Also in patch there will be better and more mercenary troops in taverns.

Great news, thanks!

 

[durbal]

I don’t think the system is bad, and I feel other necessary differences, such as AI lords get high grade armor automatically, they get a retinue of elite troops on respawn (which needs to be there guys, play a mod that gets rid of it if you want easy mode) and perhaps even a shop equivalent and caravan equivalent base monthly income would be more appropriate.

I don't think they need elite troops or any free troops on respawn if existing game systems are changed so that they can get started again. The core issue is that defeat is a total defeat, but that's a tough thing to fix for now. In the meantime, the idea of them being able to quickly get mercs to get back into it is fine because that can easily be offered to the player as well and it'd help both the player and AI.

I understand the difficulties with trying to get AI lords to own workshops and caravans. For one thing, there aren't enough workshops to go around. For another, too many caravans can disrupt the AI and the economy (flatter prices). But when you consider the emergent gameplay that could arise -- especially as a bandit or some such -- by destroying a competitor's caravans or declaring a type of trade war then the absence of mechanics surrounding AI lords owning caravans and workshops seems lame. Not to mention there could possibly be a whole rogueish element to workshops too: for example quests from others (or even for/from yourself) to break into a rival's workshop and sabotage or ransack it. All of these are missed because workshops and caravans might as well just be free background income like they're going to give to the AI. They add no real gameplay and become just another number in the tooltip for your total income.

 

[Blood Gryphon]

Actually in current 1.2 and 1.3 versions we have a great problem more important than all these stuff (today I see this weird relation penalty by chance while examining something not related) :

Currently if a lord lost a town he/she can lose 350 relation with king as you see in screenshot (because settlement value is calculated as 7M). Relation penalty formula is (settlement value / 20K). Settlement values are increased about 5x in last 1 month (i think because of barter issues) however side effects of this increase is not tested / controlled well. This make weak kingdoms weaker. In example when Sturgia or Aserai lose a settlement its old owner's biggest enemy become king and when clan lost its last settlement they defect just after because of -100 relation with king. I changed this formula to Sqrt(settlementValue / 100K) also we added 25 / 50 (castle / town) influence penalty to clan who lost its settlement.

In this gameplay 3 major clans defected from Western Empire in just one year because of this bug, as you see all these 3 defected clans has worst relation with their old king (Garios) among all of their enemies. Probably all three clans lose 1-2 settlements at first year and be enemy (-100 relation) with their king.

Anyway we will send a patch to fix all these issues today or tomorrow. Also I reduced 30% cavalry advantage constant at battle simulations to 20%, this change will be at that patch too. However I could not totally remove it for now because it is not our team's feature / addition. I will make more tests and inform people added that constant. Also in patch there will be better and more mercenary troops in taverns. Also raiding relation penalties will be 50% decreased and lords will start spawning with 10% of their party size is filled with initial troops finally and even you release them (prisoner lords) they will not spawn at least 2 days.

All of this sounds like great fixes, looking forward to testing them. Thanks for keeping us up to date!

P.S. Will there still be issues with companions recruiting freed prisoners over the party limit or fixed in next patch?

 

[Earth Dragon]

The

I don't think they need elite troops or any free troops on respawn if existing game systems are changed so that they can get started again. The core issue is that defeat is a total defeat, but that's a tough thing to fix for now. In the meantime, the idea of them being able to quickly get mercs to get back into it is fine because that can easily be offered to the player as well and it'd help both the player and AI.

I understand the difficulties with trying to get AI lords to own workshops and caravans. For one thing, there aren't enough workshops to go around. For another, too many caravans can disrupt the AI and the economy (flatter prices). But when you consider the emergent gameplay that could arise -- especially as a bandit or some such -- by destroying a competitor's caravans or declaring a type of trade war then the absence of mechanics surrounding AI lords owning caravans and workshops seems lame. Not to mention there could possibly be a whole rogueish element to workshops too: for example quests from others (or even for/from yourself) to break into a rival's workshop and sabotage or ransack it. All of these are missed because workshops and caravans might as well just be free background income like they're going to give to the AI. They add no real gameplay and become just another number in the tooltip for your total income.

But again, many of those ideas are possible if the AI is given a stipend to simulate those sorts of assets that you could still impact. The end results are a bit cleaner, are easier to adjust without the domino effect, and allow for further difficulty sliders to be added as to how much cash AI lords are provided from their trade stipend.

I feel the penalty box treatement is a far better fix to avoid complications from Lord respawn then having them spawn by themselves. That is rather short sighted to not address the hefty issues, most obvious the capture after capture after capture many would go through, but not allowing them to respawn with some bodyguards.

 

[Hithrael]

very suprised about number 1; thought NPC caravans belong to lords as it should be. I hope lords having workshops (also will improve relation mechanic as workshops are limited in number so npcs and players have to compete) and caravans (at least 1 per lord; improves lord eco and raiding mechanics; also relation mechanic) implemented in future.
about number 6; players and lord must pay less to garrison troops. and maybe militia can be paid during seiges?
BTW im happy with number2.

It would be interesting if towns could build caravans if they hit a certain low enough point within a given faction or region. They could stop generating if there was a certain high enough number of them (as some level of non-homogenity is good for game reasons).

 

[xdj1nn]

Actually in current 1.2 and 1.3 versions we have a great problem more important than all these stuff (today I see this weird relation penalty by chance while examining something not related) :

Currently if a lord lost a town he/she can lose 350 relation with king as you see in screenshot (because settlement value is calculated as 7M). Relation penalty formula is (settlement value / 20K). Settlement values are increased about 5x in last 1 month (i think because of barter issues) however side effects of this increase is not tested / controlled well. This make weak kingdoms weaker. In example when Sturgia or Aserai lose a settlement its old owner's biggest enemy become king and when clan lost its last settlement they defect just after because of -100 relation with king. I changed this formula to Sqrt(settlementValue / 100K) also we added 25 / 50 (castle / town) influence penalty to clan who lost its settlement.

In this gameplay 3 major clans defected from Western Empire in just one year because of this bug, as you see all these 3 defected clans has worst relation with their old king (Garios) among all of their enemies. Probably all three clans lose 1-2 settlements at first year and be enemy (-100 relation) with their king.

Anyway we will send a patch to fix all these issues today or tomorrow. Also I reduced 30% cavalry advantage constant at battle simulations to 20%, this change will be at that patch too. However I could not totally remove it for now because it is not our team's feature / addition. I will make more tests and inform people added that constant. Also in patch there will be better and more mercenary troops in taverns. Also raiding relation penalties will be 50% decreased and lords will start spawning with 10% of their party size is filled with initial troops finally and even you release them (prisoner lords) they will not spawn at least 2 days.

very detailed, seems good for testing, as soon as it's on our plates I'll get to trying it out.
Btw, at least on my longest playthrough (1.2.1) I've noticed that food becomes scarce in an unified land. Most towns are spinning out of control. It seems there's a lack of a system or algo. to counter-balance the unification of lands because the food is currently being badly distributed, villages are accumulating tons of it while main fiefs are not getting the share required to remain stable. The result is that no town can go past 15k prosperity or they starve.

 

[Aposynth]

Yes currently mercenary troops are less in numbers and only avaliable at towns and mostly (50%) level 11 watchmen. I was thinking similar solutions with what you offer. Mercenaries should be more important at game and especially rich kingdoms must easily increase their party sizes with them to recover after losses. Will think some improvements in these issues.

Well but the problem is, that Sturgia isn't really "rich".
I saw them hire mercenaries when they got steamrolled as usual, but obviously not enough, they got steamrolled in my current playthrough as a Battanian Noble, their last city Sibir has fallen.

I'm not sure, since this is the first time I see a faction get erased, what happens now, if the remaining noble parties (I saw them) must be eradicated for the faction to cease to exist or if they decide to jump ship and just join other factions.

Regarding Sturgias Background story, that Nord mercenaries chose to live in that land together with Sturgian "Natives" (which in Warband are most probably the Vaegirs), it would be cool that if Sturgia falls, some time later, like a Viking Conquest, Nord Armies land on the coasts in the north with new nobles with large numbers (like 5K in total so they pose a challenge), declaring war on any kingdom that occupies Sturgian land.

Anyhow, that solution, although it is a good one, wouldn't solve Sturgias difficult geographic situation.
However I understand that you don't want to touch the map as of now and do a major overhaul of it, probably you regard it as finished.

So here is a solution I can think off:

-Give Sturgia more nobles with a full party at gamestart with atleast a majority of Tier 2/Tier 3 troops, that should help balance them, so they don't get immediately steamrolled.
-Let Sturgia start with the policy, were recruits replenish faster but they earn less taxes (forgot the name of that policy) and one or two other logistical laws that helps them.

 

[Dabos37]

+200 days in a new campaign and Sturgia is doing ok. Sturgia has lost one settlement against Khuzait and take another one from Battania which is getting destroyed.

 

[bigbalzzz]

Maybe there's a possibility to add a character to every town that allows to recruit only mercenaries. Like notables but with mercanry as only available troop. This would allow to recruit better troops from cities but still not best troops.

this is +1 maybe make gang leaders be from a mercenary faction culture
so every city has a line of mercenary units
or removed armed traders and watch men "due to how similar they are to normal units' and replace them with the mercenary factions recruits