Why is wine not a consumable food item?

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Ok i relaxed a bit, my first few answers were mainly just impulsive, so don't consider them.
Cheers :smile:
Starting from this one:
1) Sanala doesn't have the same stratigic location as Sargot. it's much further away from being sieged, and possibly the most well protected town in the game thanks to it's positioning.
2)Sargot has only 1 village that produces food, Sanala has 4, not to mention import from caravans. villages without food as a primary resources sell a tiny amount of grain sometimes, but not great numbers. this doesn't allow Sanala to ever starve or be short on supplies, unless sieged but that's nearly impossibile due to it's location.
2.1) Sargot villages are more raidable than Sanala's, once again thanks to map positioning.
3) the oil press has very little to do with this in all fairness. the town you should campare sargot to should be Quyaz, but even that one is not a good example.
4) Other towns with 4 bounded villages are usually high, on prosperity, thanks to constant food supplies. Marunath for example has 4 villages and 2 of them are dedicated to food production resulting in the town having good prosperity on average.
5) Seonen also has 4 bounded villages and even if none of them are mainly dedicated to food just the amount of villages is enough to make the town prosperous.
I was comparing Sanala to Jaculan, not Sargot. Yes they do have the same settings. 4 Villages each and a well protected zone. If anything Jaculan has more castles around it then Sanala and yet it fares way worse according to your own tests.
Sorry you wasted your time making a counter argument to an argument that wasn't there in the first place :/

I showed Sargot in this new run after all the Prosperity balancing should have taken place and yet it is still starving. That is bad design and does not make sense.

Point 4) and 5) Proves my point. 4 village towns should soar to a higher level then any other town, but since oil and wine is a big factor in Vlandia it's Gem city is a joke in comparison to nations who only have these items as luxury items.
This one depends.
In todays era green means food, but irrigation, and land fertility is a factor. Just because it looks green doesn't mean it's fertile. it may have some ivasive insects or animals that at the time were hard to get rigged off. If you really want to find a meaning to this, at the end it's just mainly for balancing.

I don't know how to explain this in a more fair manner, and also 500 hours on a game like this are very little. i played 2,5K and still i don't know many things despite knowing and explaining things that a lot of the playerbase doesn't know. I also am in contact daily with other players who know a lot, so i consider most of what i explain to be up to date.
The thousands oil and grape unites should indicate a pretty fertile and well irrigated lands, don't you think?
I know its for balancing but i disagree with the method. I don't think it is balancing either since other towns are getting a piece of the pie but the ones they recently touched are devastated for most of the game until the Ai decides it is a good time to build orchards and run irrigation. The AI has shown it does a stellar job with choices so why not trust it with more choice making? (joking ofc).

Look i know you think other things should take priority, but i can't think of more pressing matter then an economy of a nation and the ugliness a player has to face for so many years.

There is more to having these items back as food items then just starvation and prosperity as well, taking them off is like someone removing the spices from your food and wondering why you don't like to eat it anymore.
there is also the possibility of me being wrong, but i don't feel like this is the case as many things can be explained with what i know.
There is hope for you yet :wink:
I am sorry if i am making you work hard. I hope you have a fine day <3
 

LyonExodus

Recruit
I was comparing Sanala to Jaculan, not Sargot.
Fair, jaculan should be good on paper. but if i remember correctly it has never been a powerhouse, maybe got to 6K or 7K before. but it was the old meta where good towns got to 10K plus by the end
Point 4) and 5) Proves my point. 4 village towns should soar to a higher level then any other town, but since oil and wine is a big factor in Vlandia it's Gem city is a joke in comparison to nations who only have these items as luxury items.
This one kinda does what TaleWords wanted to do for balancing prosperity tho, even if it proves your point it's intended and working.
Look i know you think other things should take priority, but i can't think of more pressing matter then an economy of a nation and the ugliness a player has to face for so many years.
try running some test pre wine and oil change and tell me if the town is in a different state, if it is then go ahead if it's not you are over reacting.
you kinda need to prove things, theory is nothing if it can't be proven.
in mine now Jaculan is at 4K and going up with no food problems whatsoever. and as i remember Jaculan as kinda always been the worst 4 villages town around.

Also Vlandian economy is not as bad as many others, in terms of prosperity. Khuzait and Sturgia fair much, much worse. Empire have the bonus and Battanians have just an handful of towns and needs to be good. the Aserai never lose land outside of the boarders but their economy is also not the best around.

You sure you aren't taking this "nerf" too personally and not evaluating everything around you?
Let's say this is intended, well it is, but what if Vlandia: The Kingdom with most starting vassals and decent economy got a town nerfed? is that the end of the world?
 

LyonExodus

Recruit
just came to my mind now.

you have been very upset about oil presses bad effect on Vlandian Towns, but how is it affecting towns who are generally good and have wine, like Marunath?

If it works for oil it should have the same effect on wine as well, Marunath is ranked 9th in that save file, prosperity lower than usual but 6,5K and ranked 9th i'd say it's fine for this map
 
Fair, jaculan should be good on paper. but if i remember correctly it has never been a powerhouse, maybe got to 6K or 7K before. but it was the old meta where good towns got to 10K plus by the end
7k is fine, 4k is a joke.
This one kinda does what TaleWords wanted to do for balancing prosperity tho, even if it proves your point it's intended and working.
Again, i am sure they are trying to figure out how to balance things, i disagree with this approach. It is not working if i wreaks many other elements of the game. You can plug a hole in your roof with cardboards and call it fixed but it really isn't.
try running some test pre wine and oil change and tell me if the town is in a different state, if it is then go ahead if it's not you are over reacting.
That seems to be a hobby of yours, i don't run tests. I play the game and my experience is my data and testing. It is a game right? or all the simulations TW does made you forget that a game is meant to be enjoyed not just studied.
I have no reason to overreact, i am simply voicing my opinion in the most constructive manner i could muster.
in mine now Jaculan is at 4K and going up with no food problems whatsoever. and as i remember Jaculan as kinda always been the worst 4 villages town around.

I never claimed Jaculan had food problems. It is gimped prosperity growth to its counterpart towns in other nations is proof that this is not balanced and the workshops have more effect then you think.
You sure you aren't taking this "nerf" too personally and not evaluating everything around you?
Let's say this is intended, well it is, but what if Vlandia: The Kingdom with most starting vassals and decent economy got a town nerfed? is that the end of the world?
I am sure i am not taking this personally, why would i?
It didn't get a town nerfed, it got an entire nation's economy messed up.
Also this is not about Vlandia, this is about wine and oil being considered food items (they are but now we have to pretend they are not). Vlandia is just one of the very obvious victims to this change but it is not why i started this thread.
Nerf Vlandia all you like for all i care. In this playthrough they are probably my second target after Battania. If you think i am attached to them somehow you are vastly mistaken. I don't want their "Nerf" to kill an already limited section of the game : Choices.
not to mention that Vlandia also is the only faction with 8 towns
Good to know, more for me to conquer as a Battanian.
 
just came to my mind now.

you have been very upset about oil presses bad effect on Vlandian Towns, but how is it affecting towns who are generally good and have wine, like Marunath?

If it works for oil it should have the same effect on wine as well, Marunath is ranked 9th in that save file, prosperity lower than usual but 6,5K and ranked 9th i'd say it's fine for this map
Vlandian economy is heavily reliant on both oil and wine, Marunath has just the winepress but Battanian economy is not based on Oil and wine like Vlandia.
Again, 6.5k in comparison Sanala 11k, that winepress seem to hit very hard. Aserai economy doesn't care about oil and wine, coincidence?
Oil and wine are food items, we should have them back and tweaking prosperity values is much favorable approach then pretending these items are not consumable.
 

LyonExodus

Recruit
well if your point is voicing an opinion, as many opinions it will go unnoticed.
give them proper testing and prove your point and they may act. it's that simple.

I don't like the change myself but it doesn't mess up an entire faction economy, as you said, you just started the campaign, orchards are not build yet, food will be low. Keep playing and see how it goes. we are talking 10-15.20 years in. at that moment it's time to take action.
Let's say jaculan got shafted in my campaign as well, but it will get to the point like marunath is now, well then it's a slight nerf to some towns and shops, but not that serious.

As i stated in one of my first posts, i also want to see more food in the future, still, complaining about a change that just happened isn't the right approach, give it a couple of patches and it may fix itself.

Feedback is good but proof is way better, and devs and community manager will be more convinced if you can prove it.
 

LyonExodus

Recruit
Vlandian economy is heavily reliant on both oil and wine, Marunath has just the winepress but Battanian economy is not based on Oil and wine like Vlandia.
Again, 6.5k in comparison Sanala 11k, that winepress seem to hit very hard. Aserai economy doesn't care about oil and wine, coincidence?
Oil and wine are food items, we should have them back and tweaking prosperity values is much favorable approach then pretending these items are not consumable.
comparing two different campaigns is very wrong. sanala in mine is 8,5K so it's not that huge of a difference
 

Apocal

Grandmaster Knight
No it is not, and Sanala is somehow magically good is not an argument either.
I am sure they are trying to figure it out, the way it is right now is worse then before. It is not just numbers that matter, the impact and the way it feels should matter more. We are playing to have fun, not to watch a perfect computation results...
Sanala isn't magically good. It has the ideal mix of bound villages (three grain, one fish) plus trade villages bringing in more food. It is the breadbasket of the continent and eventually gets so rich it starts to pull in even more food from poor towns via caravans.
 
comparing two different campaigns is very wrong. sanala in mine is 8,5K so it's not that huge of a difference
Considering it gets exponentially harder to increase prosperity, 2k difference is still massive and proves that workshops are very impactful in the long and short run.
I don't like the change myself but it doesn't mess up an entire faction economy, as you said, you just started the campaign, orchards are not build yet, food will be low. Keep playing and see how it goes. we are talking 10-15.20 years in. at that moment it's time to take action.
10 to 20 years lol, you are a funny guy if you consider this "balanced" and enjoyable. By that time you have already finished conquering the world and then some. It does mess the economy and it messes up the little flavor this game is already short on. which i value more then numbers.
As i stated in one of my first posts, i also want to see more food in the future, still, complaining about a change that just happened isn't the right approach, give it a couple of patches and it may fix itself.
I am glad we are on the same page.
I am not complaining, i am protesting a change. It is my right and i am exercising it in a very respectful manner. I don't know why you don't see it that way. It is what a protestor does when they don't agree with something :smile:

This is a forum : "
a meeting or medium where ideas and views on a particular issue can be exchanged.
"we hope these pages act as a forum for debate"

I am using it correctly i think, so the devs shouldn't ignore it. I will take my chances
well if your point is voicing an opinion, as many opinions it will go unnoticed.
give them proper testing and prove your point and they may act. it's that simple.

If they ignore player feedback as you claim. Then i have done my part to make this game a little bit more enjoyable for everyone else, me included and there is nothing more i can do. I am fine with that, i can always move on to do other things.
 
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Sanala isn't magically good. It has the ideal mix of bound villages (three grain, one fish) plus trade villages bringing in more food. It is the breadbasket of the continent and eventually gets so rich it starts to pull in even more food from poor towns via caravans.
Each nation should have a "breadbasket". A capital town that is more prosperous then the rest.
Jaculan is the closest i could find to compare it to and it is less then half in terms of value.
 

LyonExodus

Recruit
10 to 20 years lol, you are a funny guy if you consider this "balanced" and enjoyable. By that time you have already finished conquering the world and then some. It does mess the economy and it messes up the little flavor this game is already short on. which i value more then numbers
most campaigns last a good 15 years. this changes are aimed towards late game balancing...
 

LyonExodus

Recruit
can you just do this simple thing.
open the encyclopedia, settlements and sort by prosperity, how many vlandian towns are in the top 15?
 
can you just do this simple thing.
open the encyclopedia, settlements and sort by prosperity, how many vlandian towns are in the top 15?
15 is a weird number to go by, but just to entertain you, here is a screenshot : I have been doing all the quests around the Ocs and pra since the start of the game to get where it is right now too.
1 city is in that list with my contribution, getting them food when they need it and doing all of their quests.
Doesn't look good compared to nations where i haven't helped at all and have been at war more then Vlandia.

We are again steering away from the main topic.
We need more food, not less.
All the garrison upgrades are useless and the leadership bonus that adds to garrison is null at this point. This is going in the wrong direction on so many levels but you seem lazer focused on Prosperity. I am entertaining you but i would like to focus on the main point of this thread :*
 
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