Why is wine not a consumable food item?

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LyonExodus

Recruit
Thanks for going through the trouble :smile:
That's what i meant by it being minimal though, it is 1 oil and 1 wine
In contrast 6 beer
This is at 5k prosperity too, it should be way higher, 6 times higher to be precise
well this was a sturgian town to be fair. i was surprised to find any wine at all
 

LyonExodus

Recruit
Take a look at this
This town has 3 olive villages, 3 and it is netting me 71 dinars lol
understanding and finding good shops is complicated.

It looks like, in this case, that prosperity is low, this means that less people will buy less and not just oil.
Shops in the early are quite bad but they pick up later in the game, some shops even if put in the right towns will just not make much profit.
Economy in Bannerlord is complicated and depends on many factors, one of the major ones is the prosperity of the given town and nearbys as well, since caravans will buy goods at a low price to sell elsewhere.

To more easily understand how much oil is sold daily you can go to the trade hub, finding the price of the good and multiply by a few until you get around the value you are selling.

By that numbers it looks like you are selling 2 units of oil a day, that's in the normal range but since oil is inexpensive in vlandia and the prosperity of the town is probably under 5K you don't net much.

Not to mention that some shop types are just bed at making profit. i didn't use any oil presses in my last campaign
 
understanding and finding good shops is complicated.

It looks like, in this case, that prosperity is low, this means that less people will buy less and not just oil.
Shops in the early are quite bad but they pick up later in the game, some shops even if put in the right towns will just not make much profit.
Economy in Bannerlord is complicated and depends on many factors, one of the major ones is the prosperity of the given town and nearbys as well, since caravans will buy goods at a low price to sell elsewhere.

To more easily understand how much oil is sold daily you can go to the trade hub, finding the price of the good and multiply by a few until you get around the value you are selling.

By that numbers it looks like you are selling 2 units of oil a day, that's in the normal range but since oil is inexpensive in vlandia and the prosperity of the town is probably under 5K you don't net much.

Not to mention that some shop types are just bed at making profit. i didn't use any oil presses in my last campaign
I finished my last playthrough and i look up stuff all the time, i understand the mechanics quite well.
I am saying it shouldn't depend on prosperity at all, it is a food item just like beer and beer is making a lot more and that shop started way later then the first one.
If the town considered oil a food item, like it was before, it is consumption by both the town and armies passing by will go significantly higher.

As it is right now, only a handful of shops are worth building and it makes things stale and boring to be honest. I want to have variety and use these shops to also get better at trading.

i don't see much to argue about, our friend here just needs some mechanics explained in a deeper manner.
Bannerlord isn't that good at giving info to their players
I appreciate the fact that you are trying to help but that is not the case here. There is probably a lot i don't know yet even after 434.8 hours of playtime but this is simple enough that a kid could pick up on after some time.
 

LyonExodus

Recruit
I finished my last playthrough and i look up stuff all the time, i understand the mechanics quite well.
I am saying it shouldn't depend on prosperity at all, it is a food item just like beer and beer is making a lot more and that shop started way later then the first one.
If the town considered oil a food item, like it was before, it is consumption by both the town and armies passing by will go significantly higher.

As it is right now, only a handful of shops are worth building and it makes things stale and boring to be honest. I want to have variety and use these shops to also get better at trading.


I appreciate the fact that you are trying to help but that is not the case here. There is probably a lot i don't know yet even after 434.8 hours of playtime but this is simple enough that a kid could pick up on after some time.
beer is usually cheaper and has always been in high demand, oil and wine are more like quality food, they have a similar situation to velvet or linen for example, even if the low material is cheap and the finished product is high, towns just won't consume much of it.
So even if they are more expensive they don't sell as much to the "standard" town citizen, that's the way i see it.

there are some plug and play mods that make workshop net more without changing the overall economy.

As i stated before i think the change is a good one, and brings an overall better balance to the game; also because oil and wine were a rare commodity no matter the version you play on.

There are many more other things that needs to be given attention other then this one, and i am not talking about the sieges, or small player preference choices. i am talking about stuff like leveling, companions, death rate and kids. these are core mechanics that don't need too much work and resources like fixing sieges.
These are the ones that needs more attention, not a change that has just been made and probably discussed for months in meetings.
 
oil and wine are more like quality food
Aha! So you do agree that they are food :p
Yes, they are quality food and the price should reflect that.
They can make mistakes too you know, this is in my opinion one of the cases where they messed up.
I know there are a lot of things that they need to look at but this is a simple reverse. It used to be fine the way it is and the changes should have happened in other areas not change an entire economy to help AI get a better stat.
also because oil and wine were a rare commodity no matter the version you play on.
That's exactly how it should be and it should be reflected as such in the game. Beer is more expansive in praven right now then a unite of oil in my workshop city, same case with wine. I am buying oil for 27 dinars and beer for 35 and up, this conflicts what you said and brings back my point.
they have a similar situation to velvet or linen for example,
Velvet sells for 200 average, oil and whine at best sell for 50 to bit more then that

I don't want more money from mods mate, i was making 15k a day in my last playthrough and gave towns and fiefs to my subjects. I can show you screenshots if you want.

This does not look like it had a meeting at all. This looks like they are testing the water and i am one of the people that is telling them that it is very cold.
If they though harder about this as you are assuming, they wouldn't starve towns and make the player choices even more limited.
 

LyonExodus

Recruit
ok, done some more looking. Towns consume wine and oil but none of them counts towards the food stash.
with this said down here i will list the prosperity this towns have reached at the end of a campaign (just Vlandians) and the current food supplies:

Charas : P: 2368 (+) F: 500
Pravend : P: 7607 F: 555
Ocs Hall : P: 7428 (+) F: 102
Jaculan : P:4034 F:564
Sargot : P: 2675 F: 700
Ostican : P: 4893 (+) F: 700
Rovalt : P: 6020 F: 700

P = Prosperity F = Food + = Increase in P - = decrease in P
No town is starving.
Some towns are just bad even when fully upgraded, your example of Jaculan isn't doing very well in mine as well but others as you can see are above 7K prosperity which is a lot.

Now compare this number with yours and draw your conclusions and especially figure out how far from their potential they are.
Vlandians towns have never been great when it comes to prosperity, they were always mid line, but none of them is starving because of food or supplies, the worst in this chart is Ocs Hall with just 102 food left but also look at that prosperity value, it's huge.
Bad towns like Charas and Sargot who are on the border and armies go there and buy food are, not surprisingly, the ones doing worst but their food value is high.

Pravend is ranked 3rd is P and Ocs Hall just below at 4th. se they are doign great. most prosperous town is Seonon at almost 9,5K

when it comes to things TaleWorld like to test the water only when it comes to shops outcome and caravans when talking economy. But a decision like this one went trough dozens of runs of testing, if it was as broken as you claim they wouldn't have released it.
 
ok, done some more looking. Towns consume wine and oil but none of them counts towards the food stash.
with this said down here i will list the prosperity this towns have reached at the end of a campaign (just Vlandians) and the current food supplies:

Charas : P: 2368 (+) F: 500
Pravend : P: 7607 F: 555
Ocs Hall : P: 7428 (+) F: 102
Jaculan : P:4034 F:564
Sargot : P: 2675 F: 700
Ostican : P: 4893 (+) F: 700
Rovalt : P: 6020 F: 700

P = Prosperity F = Food + = Increase in P - = decrease in P
No town is starving.
Some towns are just bad even when fully upgraded, your example of Jaculan isn't doing very well in mine as well but others as you can see are above 7K prosperity which is a lot.

Now compare this number with yours and draw your conclusions and especially figure out how far from their potential they are.
Vlandians towns have never been great when it comes to prosperity, they were always mid line, but none of them is starving because of food or supplies, the worst in this chart is Ocs Hall with just 102 food left but also look at that prosperity value, it's huge.
Bad towns like Charas and Sargot who are on the border and armies go there and buy food are, not surprisingly, the ones doing worst but their food value is high.

Pravend is ranked 3rd is P and Ocs Hall just below at 4th. se they are doign great. most prosperous town is Seonon at almost 9,5K

when it comes to things TaleWorld like to test the water only when it comes to shops outcome and caravans when talking economy. But a decision like this one went trough dozens of runs of testing, if it was as broken as you claim they wouldn't have released it.
At an end of a campaign, these numbers should be considered awful
I will give you an example : Sanala(11K P) has the same strategic location and the same number of towns as Jaculan (4k P) (they are far away from any war effects) the only difference is, one relies on oil and wine from close trades and inner consumption the other does not have these resources nor workshops either in them or nearby.

You are doing the same mistake they are doing, run a simulation and look at the end result. There is a lot of time the player has to live through in between and it can be quite off-putting to just shrug and say : "This will get better in 5 years" if ever that is.
This is Sargot since i started this run it has been starving, it is been a year without a war and this is how it still looks : Guess what? It has an oil press :smile:

The other problem that you seem to forget about, less food items means that armies will consume what little is still considered a food item thus is why there is constant starvation at border towns (Even If their villages have not been raided like the example i provided).

A land lush and green, protected by a natural border to one of it is flanks should be more prosperous not less. So i don't know why you are telling me that it has been always like that and that's fine. No it is not and it needs to be looked at.

They have not announced these changes, clearly they are not convinced or this is just a place holder. I am one of the voices that object to the direction this is going and will remain so because i had to endure hours of helplessness against something i cannot control or fix by my contribution, the main character.

This in regards to my previous post :
 

LyonExodus

Recruit
also sanala is always good no matter what, it's the best town in the game.
they stated months ago that 10K + towns where not good for the game, this in one way to do it. if then it brings balance in other areas it's just good for the game and not much else has to be added.
 

LyonExodus

Recruit
i' ll stop here, can't keep trying to make fair points after 2,5K hours of playing this game. believe what you want at this point i am not your father.
 
also sanala is always good no matter what, it's the best town in the game.
they stated months ago that 10K + towns where not good for the game, this in one way to do it. if then it brings balance in other areas it's just good for the game and not much else has to be added.
No it is not, and Sanala is somehow magically good is not an argument either.
I am sure they are trying to figure it out, the way it is right now is worse then before. It is not just numbers that matter, the impact and the way it feels should matter more. We are playing to have fun, not to watch a perfect computation results...
 
i' ll stop here, can't keep trying to make fair points after 2,5K hours of playing this game. believe what you want at this point i am not your father.
I am not your son either :razz:
I am sure they seem fair to you, to me, you can't be further from the truth. Take care mate and thanks for trying.
 

LyonExodus

Recruit
Ok i relaxed a bit, my first few answers were mainly just impulsive, so don't consider them.


Sanala(11K P) has the same strategic location and the same number of towns as Jaculan (4k P) (they are far away from any war effects) the only difference is, one relies on oil and wine from close trades and inner consumption the other does not have these resources nor workshops either in them or nearby.
Starting from this one:
1) Sanala doesn't have the same stratigic location as Sargot. it's much further away from being sieged, and possibly the most well protected town in the game thanks to it's positioning.
2)Sargot has only 1 village that produces food, Sanala has 4, not to mention import from caravans. villages without food as a primary resources sell a tiny amount of grain sometimes, but not great numbers. this doesn't allow Sanala to ever starve or be short on supplies, unless sieged but that's nearly impossibile due to it's location.
2.1) Sargot villages are more raidable than Sanala's, once again thanks to map positioning.
3) the oil press has very little to do with this in all fairness. the town you should campare sargot to should be Quyaz, but even that one is not a good example.
4) Other towns with 4 bounded villages are usually high, on prosperity, thanks to constant food supplies. Marunath for example has 4 villages and 2 of them are dedicated to food production resulting in the town having good prosperity on average.
5) Seonen also has 4 bounded villages and even if none of them are mainly dedicated to food just the amount of villages is enough to make the town prosperous.
You are doing the same mistake they are doing, run a simulation and look at the end result. There is a lot of time the player has to live through in between and it can be quite off-putting to just shrug and say : "This will get better in 5 years" if ever that is.
This is Sargot since i started this run it has been starving, it is been a year without a war and this is how it still looks :
i played since january last year pretty much every day on every patch, i don't think i am making many mistakes when evaluating a good simulation.
I have run many tests, some of which have been tweaked for hours to find a good way to represent a standard gemeplay in a controlled setting, and if they don't i usually state that somewhere.
i also beat this game many times with limitations that many players would find hard to say the least, and that requires a good enough knowledge of what you are doing and evaluate situations.

talking about the town that's simply how the early game works. prosperity is randomly generated for all towns at the start and if a town has too much it will starve for a while, this allows rebellions to happen early helping the player getting a settlement and start a kingdom. It also allows some clans to be created to help some faction so that the run doesn't feel the same.
Also once the town is fully upgraded like in the chart i posted you can see that starvation doesn't occur anymore.
You may not like it but it's good, like really good.
They have not announced these changes, clearly they are not convinced or this is just a place holder. I am one of the voices that object to the direction this is going and will remain so because i had to endure hours of helplessness against something i cannot control or fix by my contribution, the main character.
TaleWorld does it many times, things get changed and they forget to say it.
Shops and caravans are tweaked basically every patch to "balance" the economy, yeah they just create a big mess sometimes.
Units may get a little tweak and nothing is said, i don't remember seeing the helmet the Legionary use being nerfed to 47 at any point but it did.
Patch notes, only include major things and are also written by a human, but i agree they should add stuff like this to them and not forget about it. That one is on them.

OTHER THINGS:
Depending on policies prosperity can also rise or decrease.
Food villages and number of bounded villages are also key to prosperity.
The early game can mess some town up for the benefit of the overall gameplay, try starting a new save use cheats to max a town early on and you will see their prosperity rise or not lowering.
Your point about oil presses and wineries being not great for food production is interesting but i don't think it has all the impact you claim. if so then you should run some tests: take away all oil presses from the map and wineries and see if the towns have more or less food.
little spoiler, they probably won't, as the food in the trade hub is just a tiny fraction of what they actually have available, that's why if you put 1K grain in a town you are not fixing them from starving, it's not a real 1K it's more like a 50.
A land lush and green, protected by a natural border to one of it is flanks should be more prosperous not less. So i don't know why you are telling me that it has been always like that and that's fine. No it is not and it needs to be looked at.
This one depends.
In todays era green means food, but irrigation, and land fertility is a factor. Just because it looks green doesn't mean it's fertile. it may have some ivasive insects or animals that at the time were hard to get rigged off. If you really want to find a meaning to this, at the end it's just mainly for balancing.

I don't know how to explain this in a more fair manner, and also 500 hours on a game like this are very little. i played 2,5K and still i don't know many things despite knowing and explaining things that a lot of the playerbase doesn't know. I also am in contact daily with other players who know a lot, so i consider most of what i explain to be up to date.

there is also the possibility of me being wrong, but i don't feel like this is the case as many things can be explained with what i know.
 
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