Why Is This Forum Section So Toxic?

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Calabanar

Sergeant
Game enters Early Access:

Mostly positive feedback, people are looking forward to how the game will develop. Some are concerned by a few design decisions but are shot down by the overwhelming positivity (which includes a very sizeable portion of the users in this thread). Lots of constructive feedback, and I mean detailed, interesting feedback.

2-4 few months since release:

Majority of playerbase and forumites is still very positive, people are content with how quickly not fixes are released. More concerns are voiced but still shut down pretty hard. Even more constructive feedback.

5-10 months since release:

The positivity from the initial release has really died down, people are getting frustrated over the small changes, constant addition of new bugs and little interest given to feedback (on the core issues voiced by the community overall, like sieges. Some of the devs have definitely tried to use feedback, but it’s usually on small things). People are getting bitter which is... normal.

Now:

People lack both hope and faith in Taleworlds. With a lot of the constructive feedback ignored, people roam the forums in an endless cycle of bitterness, anguish and frustration. Could this Situation have been avoided? Oh definitely.

Sure, the forum is toxic, but telling people to stop it won’t change anything. If anything you will just make people angrier by downplaying their concerns and frustrations. The only ones who can change this situation for the better are Taleworlds.

I’m not holding my breath though.
 

Nodice83

Squire
WBWF&SNWVC
Did TaleWorlds really stop listening as a result of toxicity, or is it the other way around? Did the community become toxic because TaleWorlds doesn't listen.
I believe it might have been a very important reason that caused so-called forum toxicity...

The more I use the forum the more I feel people here are no longer considered a worthy source of ideas... some people say that Facebook, Steam, and Youtube have become more prominent platforms to exchange ideas... Keeping a platform like that running and do not use its contents is beyond me.
 

Calabanar

Sergeant
I believe it might have been a very important reason that caused so-called forum toxicity...

The more I use the forum the more I feel people here are no longer considered a worthy source of ideas... some people say that Facebook, Steam, and Youtube have become more prominent platforms to exchange ideas... Keeping a platform like that running and do not use its contents is beyond me.
Wait, so what you are saying is this forum is... some sort of retirement home?! :shock:
 

Einarcf

Master Knight
M&BWBWF&SNWVC
There was a a FAIR bit of scepticism towards changes in the equipment system as well as no battle when it was first revealed in a blog post. I was sceptic, but willing to try it out. And now? I think the BL class system has its merits, but trying to balance every single mode with 2*3 equipment slots is ...
 

Calabanar

Sergeant
Looking at your age in the profile section i can only say your are lowering the average on the forum :wink:
I meant retirement home more as a reference to your point about outdated methods to gather feedbacks.

Though my analogy wasn’t the best, I’ll give you that!
 

Younes

Master Knight
WBWF&SNWVC
Game enters Early Access:

Mostly positive feedback, people are looking forward to how the game will develop. Some are concerned by a few design decisions but are shot down by the overwhelming positivity (which includes a very sizeable portion of the users in this thread). Lots of constructive feedback, and I mean detailed, interesting feedback.

2-4 few months since release:

Majority of playerbase and forumites is still very positive, people are content with how quickly not fixes are released. More concerns are voiced but still shut down pretty hard. Even more constructive feedback.

5-10 months since release:

The positivity from the initial release has really died down, people are getting frustrated over the small changes, constant addition of new bugs and little interest given to feedback (on the core issues voiced by the community overall, like sieges. Some of the devs have definitely tried to use feedback, but it’s usually on small things). People are getting bitter which is... normal.

Now:

People lack both hope and faith in Taleworlds. With a lot of the constructive feedback ignored, people roam the forums in an endless cycle of bitterness, anguish and frustration. Could this Situation have been avoided? Oh definitely.

Sure, the forum is toxic, but telling people to stop it won’t change anything. If anything you will just make people angrier by downplaying their concerns and frustrations. The only ones who can change this situation for the better are Taleworlds.

I’m not holding my breath though.
This only applies to singleplayer. The whole alpha and beta adds around 9 months. The "now stage" was already reached at the end of the beta for multiplayer part of the game.
 
I was only positive for like 1 month at the release of the EA. The more i realized how **** the design choices are, the more i became toxic.
 

Greedalicious

Grandmaster Knight
WB
We just have so many dickheads and really low quality trolls in these forums as if the devs would even bother.
Because they have to if they want a healthy community. The forum isnt toxic. The reason people are angry and upset is obvious, and this "oh toxic people on the forum again...." is harming the community more than anything, because it gives the developers an out. "Oh we made a great great game! Its a shame the minority on the forum hate it... Lets go to Reddit where people dont understand the fundamentals of combat for validation!"

The players wouldnt be angry if the company acted better. Stop defending a million dollar entitity that doesnt give a **** about you what so ever. Dont attack spesific devs, but voice your damn opinions. You paid money for a product, you have the right to complain if it doesnt meet your standards.


I was only positive for like 1 month at the release of the EA. The more i realized how **** the design choices are, the more i became toxic.
You're not toxic either, just fed up with the development process.
Maybe the term toxic is changed... I think of topics like "BURN ALL THE DEVS THEY SUCK LOL" and not "THE EQUIPMENT SYSTEM IS A FAILURE AND TW SHOULD BE HELD ACCOUNTABLE!"

Imagine a world where nobody is held accountable for mistakes. What a hellscape that would be....
 

Loyal2Odin

Sergeant
Because they have to if they want a healthy community. The forum isnt toxic. The reason people are angry and upset is obvious, and this "oh toxic people on the forum again...." is harming the community more than anything, because it gives the developers an out. "Oh we made a great great game! Its a shame the minority on the forum hate it... Lets go to Reddit where people dont understand the fundamentals of combat for validation!"

The players wouldnt be angry if the company acted better. Stop defending a million dollar entitity that doesnt give a **** about you what so ever. Dont attack spesific devs, but voice your damn opinions. You paid money for a product, you have the right to complain if it doesnt meet your standards.



You're not toxic either, just fed up with the development process.
Maybe the term toxic is changed... I think of topics like "BURN ALL THE DEVS THEY SUCK LOL" and not "THE EQUIPMENT SYSTEM IS A FAILURE AND TW SHOULD BE HELD ACCOUNTABLE!"

Imagine a world where nobody is held accountable for mistakes. What a hellscape that would be....
Yeah kids these days seem to confuse what toxicity really is. Speaking truth is considered toxic nowadays. I bet the people defending TW are 150kg dudes binge eating 24/7 in their moms basement lol. Wake up and accept the fact that TaleWorlds is a huge failure but its never to late to change.
 

Younes

Master Knight
WBWF&SNWVC
Notice it's always people who were nowhere to be seen during beta that complain about how toxic it is. It takes maybe 20mins of scrolling through the beta forum threads with great suggestions threads to understand why people are upset.
 
The more I use the forum the more I feel people here are no longer considered a worthy source of ideas...

An interesting thing one of the (now silent) devs said back in 2019 during the beta was that "the vast (I MEAN VAST) majority of feedback on the class system has been positive". Nobody, not even Callum, knew what feedback he was talking about, since the forums were overwhelmingly negative about it. But it kind of highlights how modern developers think, and what they consider "real" feedback.

Modern game dev studios are much more like silicon valley big tech offices than the ad hoc startups they were in the mid 2000s and prior. They have stockholders and HR managers and PR gurus and end up behaving way more like a robotic machine than an artistic team. The way a modern company gauges opinions or gets "advice" about how to make more money from their game is using Data. They focus test a group of people or treat them like lab rats in order to get their "pure" opinion about something. If something can't be presented as a graph or statistic in a meeting, the likelihood is the development team will never take it into account.

An example is how despite being overwhelmingly opposed, developers will constantly remove features or fundamentally change how a game works seemingly without consulting anyone outside the company. This isn't because they don't care about or can't see criticism, it's just that whenever decisions are being made in an office, they look at X or Y statistic that shows that people aren't using that feature much, so they delete it. They notice that people don't understand how the game works, so they remove all the dynamic mechanics and make every button do something instantly. This isn't just speculation either, there are presentations some publishers have given where this is their official policy. It's one of the many reasons why video games suck now.
 

KaplanKANKA

Recruit
I have no clue guys why you are so mad and salty over a video game, personally I find the game great and if you think that the devs will listen to literally a minority's feedback while the minority is being toxic as ****, grow up or go out to vomit ur rage somewhere else.
 

Younes

Master Knight
WBWF&SNWVC
I have no clue guys why you are so mad and salty over a video game, personally I find the game great and if you think that the devs will listen to literally a minority's feedback while the minority is being toxic as ****, grow up or go out to vomit ur rage somewhere else.
Corsair can you get back to your main account? Because your delusional ideas are spilling over again
 

Loyal2Odin

Sergeant
I have no clue guys why you are so mad and salty over a video game, personally I find the game great and if you think that the devs will listen to literally a minority's feedback while the minority is being toxic as ****, grow up or go out to vomit ur rage somewhere else.
ok boomer
 

Nodice83

Squire
WBWF&SNWVC
Modern game dev studios are much more like silicon valley big tech offices than the ad hoc startups they were in the mid 2000s and prior. They have stockholders and HR managers and PR gurus and end up behaving way more like a robotic machine than an artistic team. The way a modern company gauges opinions or gets "advice" about how to make more money from their game is using Data.
It does well reflects how huge gaming industry companies would most likely work. In the very case of TW - I am in two minds about it... They constantly play cat and mouse with themselves. Reassuring everybody here they value their feedback with no or rare examples backing up those statements. Devs for sure cannot speak freely and even when they do, they automatically add: "it is just my personal opinion", "I don't want to say anything that will get me into trouble", "I like the idea but I am not entirely sure this will go through the board"... So, all in all, I see what they have become, what they aim for, but for God's sake I wish they finally admit it.

If something can't be presented as a graph or statistic in a meeting, the likelihood is the development team will never take it into account.
And this is what I thought by starting the thread here --> 3 Features post but it is still so limited in terms of responses and statistical relevance to crush through the wall of "confidence interval" anytime soon. I am pretty sure I wasn't the first and most probably not the last person who attempted.

I wish them all the best but I see they are just starting to crawl with all their HR, policies, and so on. Many large (mature) companies I have heard about used to work as you described it and at some point decided they will change their model to be more customer-centered. Started to ask customers for opinion and greatly benefited from those activities. Like there is so much you can benefit from asking end-users about their opinion. But at the same time, you have to know how to do it right.
 
I wish them all the best but I see they are just starting to crawl with all their HR, policies, and so on. Many large (mature) companies I have heard about used to work as you described it and at some point decided they will change their model to be more customer-centered. Started to ask customers for opinion and greatly benefited from those activities. Like there is so much you can benefit from asking end-users about their opinion. But at the same time, you have to know how to do it right.

The problem is that over the last 10 or so years, the trend has been for tech companies to believe customers are just a manipulative mass, and that any complaints can be chalked up to the app not being manipulative enough. Taleworlds executives probably don't believe this directly, but as a broad tech industry trend its almost suffocatingly pervasive. Universities have been giving massive grants to game developers for like a decade to research how video game player manipulation works. Everything's about data now and you can't go 2 feet as a coder without seeing someone telling you how effective it is to use user data to subconsciously manipulate your audience rather than ever directly addressing them. And unfortunately its working, because data driven games are by far the most profitable.
 
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