There's a place where there are Druids ... Why can not you add Celtic religion?
Why is there no Celtic-Pagan religion?
- 主题发起人 ariel127711
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My understanding is that by the time the vikings come, Christianity has taken hold. The decline of Celtic paganism starts in the 5th century with the roman invasion which killed most druids, thereby destroying an oral tradition. By the 8th century, its very doubtful anything meaningful remained of it. Even the Irish were catholic, although their version was much more heavily influenced by paganism than mainland Europe.
Again this is AFAIK, but I imagine that was their reasoning.
Again this is AFAIK, but I imagine that was their reasoning.
DrunkenFrenchman 说:
How did the Roman invasion in the fifth century AD? The Scottish Lowlands There are Celtic tribes with Druids
ariel127711 说:
game is set on the end of the 9th century, so several hundreds years after the Romans left. Most parts that are Christian were still on a early version of the religion, with a mix of pagan rituals in the mix, and some small groups here and there with the "old ways".
game has the idea of paganism and Christians (not Catholics), and some nice references to different rituals like the mystic circle and other places. You can explore the map further to learn more about the easter eggs and small bits.
about the game itself: the development phase ended years ago, right now it is on maintenance mode (rare patches for bugs, like 1-2 times a year). You should not expect any update that introduces new mechanics or changes how the game works.
What you can do is mod it to your hearts content (as a Warband module the source is available and you can change ANYTHING you want given enough time and dedication). So if something is that important to YOU, go ahead and include it. The only thing stopping you from realizing your own game vision and your own effort.
Cheers and happy raiding!
kalarhan 说:
What about Scotland's update? It was a pretty big update ..
kalarhan 说:
If you have nothing to write, do not write spam
Cale
Sergeant
The period after the Romans left Britain (5th Century AD) is one where Christian missionaries are hugely active across the islands. Strangely enough some of the most famous monasteries actually appear beyond the reach of, or near the borders, of the Roman World. I'm thinking about Iona, Lindisfarne, lots in Ireland etc. They actually were so successful at converting the native populace to Christianity (think St Patrick in Ireland which is around this time) that they generated a localised version distinct from the 'Roman Church' which today we'd call Roman Catholicism. The main disagreements are around fairly mundane things like the style of monks haircuts and how you calculate the date of Easter. It eventually gets sorted out in the Saxon world by the Synod of Whitby which picks the Roman Catholic method over the 'Celtic' one (Fun side note, at least one version of this story attributes the King of Northumbrias (acting as an 'impartial' judge) decision to the fact his wife wouldn't sleep with him during Lent, and the Roman method shortened the length of it).
Christianity is also, at least in a Northern European context, very appealing to the ruling classes as it presents a view of the world with an in-built hierarchy they can use to reinforce their own rule. In contrast, what we know about Brythonic Druidism seems to suggest that the druids themselves often promoted a alternate power structure to that of Chieftains/Kings etc and even the highest members of the nobility might find themselves the subject of a human sacrifice.
If it did still exist it was probably a religion of peasants and farmers in more distant communities (deepest parts of Ireland, North of Scotland etc) so taking it as your religion of choice in-game would probably have huge disadvantages as literally no one in any positions of power would be in support.
Christianity is also, at least in a Northern European context, very appealing to the ruling classes as it presents a view of the world with an in-built hierarchy they can use to reinforce their own rule. In contrast, what we know about Brythonic Druidism seems to suggest that the druids themselves often promoted a alternate power structure to that of Chieftains/Kings etc and even the highest members of the nobility might find themselves the subject of a human sacrifice.
If it did still exist it was probably a religion of peasants and farmers in more distant communities (deepest parts of Ireland, North of Scotland etc) so taking it as your religion of choice in-game would probably have huge disadvantages as literally no one in any positions of power would be in support.
xavgrn
Recruit
You're right Cale. Ninth century was just after the Golden Age of celtic christianity. Well renowned gaelics or britonics monks founded monasteries all across western Europe. Some of them near my home in eastern France, Lotharingia (Middle Francia). Everybody was christian in British Isles even if they were always some local worships from pagan origins. Later this was officially called witchcraft. The last pagans where in northern Europe, Scandinavians, Balts, Finns and Slaves. Even some Scandinavians were considering christianization at that time.
Cale 说:
What I understand is not Celtic religion? I of course asked about whether there are areas in the period of the Celtic religion game.
So why not add it to the game? Even if it creates some problems ... it still has to be in the game.
Agree, especially as it was present in Brytenwalda. Earlier poster(s) have argued that Celtic Paganism had been essentially "eradicated" from the British Isles by this point, existing only in a localized form at the village level, citing Celtic Christian historical sources as proof.
But history is written by the victors, the victor int his case being the Catholic Church, that later on would dispatch the Inquisition to finally eradicate all remnants of the "Old Religion."
As a game, keeping religious dynamic as Christianity vs. (Norse) Paganism certainly simplifies playbalance, and I'm OK with that.
But history is written by the victors, the victor int his case being the Catholic Church, that later on would dispatch the Inquisition to finally eradicate all remnants of the "Old Religion."
As a game, keeping religious dynamic as Christianity vs. (Norse) Paganism certainly simplifies playbalance, and I'm OK with that.
Cale
Sergeant
hieronymos2 说:
It's not even just the Christians in this case. Prior to the fall of Rome Mithras worship was actually much more prevalent then any old Druidic religion in England and Wales (see the huge temple to Mithras constructed in London). That's why I specified in my post that the non-roman areas converted surprisingly quickly to Christianity, and the take-up was pretty universal in the highest levels of society.
Ultimately you're representing a fairly well-to-do character in Viking Conquest as you are a professional warrior and warband leader and so are likely to be a follower of a major religion rather then something that maybe some peasants might be practicing.
If there were any sizable pockets of Celtic paganism in the region in the 9th C., it would've been in Pictland.
Read an interesting account of Scottish midlands villages in the 14th C. that were all secretly practicing Celtic Paganism with the tacit permission of local gentry...until the Inquisition came to town and started mass killings.
Bede is the main source cited for how "Christianized" the British Isles were at that point (mid-8th C.). But without any other confirmatory sources like the Anglo-Saxon Chronicles, who knows how accurate he really was for what went on outside of Northumbria/Wessex. However, he does place a lot of emphasis on the history and organization of missionary work--regarding the Ionan clerics as being especially effective. I would argue that such strong emphasis on missionary activity belies the supposedly already uniformly Christian nature of the populations even within Nrthumbria, Mercia, Wessex.
A useful comparative analogy might be that of the proportion of US Native Americans on reservations who are Christian; versus those who still practice the Red Road, a full five centuries after missionaries began spreading their faith.
Read an interesting account of Scottish midlands villages in the 14th C. that were all secretly practicing Celtic Paganism with the tacit permission of local gentry...until the Inquisition came to town and started mass killings.
Bede is the main source cited for how "Christianized" the British Isles were at that point (mid-8th C.). But without any other confirmatory sources like the Anglo-Saxon Chronicles, who knows how accurate he really was for what went on outside of Northumbria/Wessex. However, he does place a lot of emphasis on the history and organization of missionary work--regarding the Ionan clerics as being especially effective. I would argue that such strong emphasis on missionary activity belies the supposedly already uniformly Christian nature of the populations even within Nrthumbria, Mercia, Wessex.
A useful comparative analogy might be that of the proportion of US Native Americans on reservations who are Christian; versus those who still practice the Red Road, a full five centuries after missionaries began spreading their faith.
Cale
Sergeant
Actually the main source for north of the wall is probably the Vitae Columba which was written around the early 700s. As the founder of Iona, and for a long time considered a patron St. of the Picts/Scots before St Andrew, St. Columba is supposed to have introduced the Picts to Christianity.
How successful it was among the picts is up for debate, largely because we know basically nothing about the life and culture of the Picts. If there were still adherents to the old faith though, it's likely to be something very different to what we know as the British/Druidic paganism as the Picts are a very separate culture to the rest of Britain and Ireland. What little we have of their artwork and descriptions of them makes this clear (if you've ever googled 'Celtic animal design' almost half the results are most likely Pictish from one of their carved stones which are very unique). However, if they were particularly opposed to Columba and his teachings it's unlikely Iona would survive or become as important as it did, without even considering Dal Riata.
As I've said, conversion was most likely a top-down affair and both the Vitae and Bede do suggest this with stories of kings being converted. It's entirely possible villages and peasants here and there were still pagan, which I've said before, but it's just not a major player and in the mid ninth century you would be either treated as a heretic by Christians or ignored and killed by the Vikings because that's just their thing.
How successful it was among the picts is up for debate, largely because we know basically nothing about the life and culture of the Picts. If there were still adherents to the old faith though, it's likely to be something very different to what we know as the British/Druidic paganism as the Picts are a very separate culture to the rest of Britain and Ireland. What little we have of their artwork and descriptions of them makes this clear (if you've ever googled 'Celtic animal design' almost half the results are most likely Pictish from one of their carved stones which are very unique). However, if they were particularly opposed to Columba and his teachings it's unlikely Iona would survive or become as important as it did, without even considering Dal Riata.
As I've said, conversion was most likely a top-down affair and both the Vitae and Bede do suggest this with stories of kings being converted. It's entirely possible villages and peasants here and there were still pagan, which I've said before, but it's just not a major player and in the mid ninth century you would be either treated as a heretic by Christians or ignored and killed by the Vikings because that's just their thing.
Keep in mind that St. Columba lived in the mid-6th C., a full two centuries before VC-R.
Read a translation of it in College, an age ago; but it's basically a hagiography and a tale of Christian proselytic derring-do. Are you perhaps referring to a later commentary on the Vitae Columba that perhaps included events afterwards?
Read a translation of it in College, an age ago; but it's basically a hagiography and a tale of Christian proselytic derring-do. Are you perhaps referring to a later commentary on the Vitae Columba that perhaps included events afterwards?
Celtic Paganism maybe died for the most people, but since there are still few druids out there
this should've being a option in my opinion. I mean it's a roleplaying game you should be able to create
characters like you like it as long as it is not to absurd. And there is a druid ingame so why no celtic pagan religion?
Even these days there are still people who claim to believe in the celtic paganism.
this should've being a option in my opinion. I mean it's a roleplaying game you should be able to create
characters like you like it as long as it is not to absurd. And there is a druid ingame so why no celtic pagan religion?
Even these days there are still people who claim to believe in the celtic paganism.
Cale
Sergeant
hieronymos2 说:
I agree it's about as flamboyant as any Saints life coming out from this time, but as you say he exists 2 centuries before VC. There's no evidence of a pagan revival in that period (burnt churches etc) so even if we remove the heroic narrative and assume it was a slower process that's a full 2 centuries for Christianity to become the dominant faith north of the wall which it does, again this is largely an elites narrative, as evidence by Kings like Constantine adopting Roman/Christianised names.
Again, I'm really not advocating that we know all celtic paganism was wiped out. As I say, what we don't know about the Picts could fill several books. However it doesn't seem to have a major role to play at the level at which VC characters are operating.
Woeski 说:
I wouldn't like to disparage anyone's religion of choice, but modern day Druidism has almost nothing to do with anything we know about pre-roman religion and mostly comes back to writings or beliefs from a man named Edward Williams or Iolo Morganwg to give him his chosen name who was running around in the 18th century. Other people have picked up where he left off and from what I understand mostly advocate for respect of the natural world etc but if nothing else it's all significantly less bizarre then the beliefs we have from celtic mythology.
