Why is the Khan's Guard so much stronger than the Vanguard Faris?

[five bucks]

Then there is no reason for point 2 to be raised in your post.

Not reading my post again:

"The purpose of saying that Mongols are not the primary focus of Khuzaits' inspiration is that even if they were exclusive users of glaives (which they weren't) then Khuzaits aren't meant to be a 1:1 copy anyway."

 

[five bucks]

you know that Calradia isn't Europe right?

If you think that then why the hell did you use Mongols as an example of how the game should be?

I don't think TW would ever make a identical copy to more conservative and realistic approaching takes on dmg and armor, never did, but I had hoped they'd lean a bit more that direction with BL before EA was released, to my disappointment they went the opposite direction.

Then speaking practically, the best way of going forward is to directly nerf the Glaive. As the other option of a fully realistic armour system - with stamina it would necessitate to balance it, as in RBM - is not feasible.

 

[Apocal]

Not reading my post again:

"The purpose of saying that Mongols are not the primary focus of Khuzaits' inspiration is that even if they were exclusive users of glaives (which they weren't) then Khuzaits aren't meant to be a 1:1 copy anyway."

"Instead, they are meant to be inspired by all these other groups, who also used glaives often" doesn't really make sense in context. You also made up the part about lances being more common than glaives; we know both were used but not in any real specificity as to which was more common.

 

[Bluko88]

You know, I don't hate the idea of giving them a lance instead. Actually it makes more sense going off inspiration.

But you see glaives are f*cking sick and cool and should stay.

Again it's a nice idea, and I even went back to the "glass canon" here:

Head: Plumed Lamellar Helmet (36)
Body: Cured Leather Lamellar Armor + Leather Lamellar Shoulder Guards (36)
Arm: Plated Leather Vambraces (27)
Foot: Reinforced Suede Boots (20)

But this time I also knocked down their Polearm Skill to 140

This brings them more or less in line when strictly melee

Spoiler: Khan Guard "light" vs Elite Cataphract melee only

Spoiler: Khan Guard "light" vs Imperial T5 infantry melee only

Spoiler: Khan Guard "light" vs Fian Champions melee only

Spoiler: Khan Guard "light" vs Fian Champions skirmishing

Wow look at that, Khan's Guards aren't broken. Except oh wait they are total **** against other Horse Archers now when skirmishing!

Spoiler: Shameful display... vs Heavy Mameluke & Heavy Horse Archer

Unless TW introduces some kind of very heavy penalty for using swinging polearms on horseback (also like Terco says really doesn't help swinging polearms basically turn horsemen into blenders due to their robotic swivel strikes) there's nothing that can be done.

Replace the Glaive with a lance, give em a saber and call it day for Khan's Guard and Khuzait Noble Line.


I even tried messing with the length of the Glaive handle, all the way from 0 to 90. In which case you either make it totally ineffectual, basically the billhook (pretty silly on horseback), or really no different at all.

Sorry folks, it just don't work. Much like spears on foot in a sense - although the opposite of useless. Maybe that's just the "balance" of it:

One-handed stabbing polearm on foot = wet spaghetti noodle
Two-handed swinging polearm on horse = DOOM Guy Mode

 

[Bluko88]

What if they make the Glaive not usable on horseback? Like longbows.

That way a template like the one you created with the saber could fit. while leaving the Khan's that double edge threat as a dismounted unit and the 1 less quiver makes the Heavy Horse Archers the specialist.

I guess?

Seems really silly since it is historically a weapon that was used for mounted combat. Pretty sure it was created for that reason. It's one thing to obscure the item in-game, it's another thing entirely to make it not used the way it was meant to br. Oh wait that's what happened to the Pilum LOL, although at least player can still throw it right?


Oh... this game is releasing in 5 Days. With Achievements no less I'm sure...

I hope no console player is foolish enough to go for a Platinum, etc. without realizing they can pretty much have their way with the map if they focus soley on recruiting Khuzait Noble line.

 

[Grank]

In short, you would only have to add an animation for that action window (270º and 360º) to complement the existing ones (45º - 90º / 90º-180º / 180º-270º). Obviously, you would have to have a mirror animation for when the pose is on the other side.

Ah I see you mean now. My bad. I was too fixated on the infantry swing and the rider's upright pose on the gif.

 

[five bucks]

"Instead, they are meant to be inspired by all these other groups, who also used glaives often" doesn't really make sense in context.

The context is that even if he had demonstrated some kind of Mongol glaive fetish of which I was not aware, Mongols still aren't meant to be the main theme of Khuzaits anyway.

You also made up the part about lances being more common than glaives; we know both were used but not in any real specificity as to which was more common.

I based my statement on the Mongol art I went and looked at (not Osprey illustrations or w/e but stuff from the actual period), and I saw lots of lances, and like 2 glaives/halberds. But yes, you are right we don't know the literal exact ratios because art is not complete evidence. That's kind of beside the point though, since the point for the "theme" of a video game unit is basing them off what we *do* know and *have* seen.

Edit: Here's some images of Mongols I saw in which polearms featured. I'm seeing a lot of lances and sabres, and not a lot of glaives. I am yet to see a single period image of a Mongol warrior who is using both glaive and bow from horseback.

 

[LyonExodus]

Oh wait that's what happened to the Pilum LOL, although at least player can still throw it right?

With the duplicate then change approach i suggested the players and companions can use the glaive as it is. they just need to buy it from the shop.
While the weapon used by the troops is a "special" one that doesn't get sold.
You work around both. While you change the unit mounted capabilities without touching the dismounted ones.

Honestly, i think something like that is the best approach, realism can go F itself, i rather chose balance among the two.
But honestly, if the entire Khuzait roster was "normal" we wouldn't have this discussion about the KG glaive.

 

[xdj1nn]

"Instead, they are meant to be inspired by all these other groups, who also used glaives often" doesn't really make sense in context. You also made up the part about lances being more common than glaives; we know both were used but not in any real specificity as to which was more common.

we only do know that glaives are more unique and as such gives them a stronger identity

Again it's a nice idea, and I even went back to the "glass canon" here:

Head: Plumed Lamellar Helmet (36)
Body: Cured Leather Lamellar Armor + Leather Lamellar Shoulder Guards (36)
Arm: Plated Leather Vambraces (27)
Foot: Reinforced Suede Boots (20)

But this time I also knocked down their Polearm Skill to 140

This brings them more or less in line when strictly melee

Spoiler: Khan Guard "light" vs Elite Cataphract melee only

Spoiler: Khan Guard "light" vs Imperial T5 infantry melee only

Spoiler: Khan Guard "light" vs Fian Champions melee only

Spoiler: Khan Guard "light" vs Fian Champions skirmishing

Wow look at that, Khan's Guards aren't broken. Except oh wait they are total **** against other Horse Archers now when skirmishing!

Spoiler: Shameful display... vs Heavy Mameluke & Heavy Horse Archer

Unless TW introduces some kind of very heavy penalty for using swinging polearms on horseback (also like Terco says really doesn't help swinging polearms basically turn horsemen into blenders due to their robotic swivel strikes) there's nothing that can be done.

Replace the Glaive with a lance, give em a saber and call it day for Khan's Guard and Khuzait Noble Line.


I even tried messing with the length of the Glaive handle, all the way from 0 to 90. In which case you either make it totally ineffectual, basically the billhook (pretty silly on horseback), or really no different at all.

Sorry folks, it just don't work. Much like spears on foot in a sense - although the opposite of useless. Maybe that's just the "balance" of it:

One-handed stabbing polearm on foot = wet spaghetti noodle
Two-handed swinging polearm on horse = DOOM Guy Mode

have you tried buffing the other troops + the glass canon style? - could work maybe!?
Strat did tests and there's a reason why khan's are even stronger now, and that is due to TW removing aggression from all units - as such he actually found out that Voulgiers became extremely OP - and shock infantry became the goat over all other types of inf units on foot melee...
I think that it comes back to AI issues, yet again. Theoretically back in 1.8 just making khuz glass canons and giving a more leveled speed for other shock troops weapons would likely make them much less absurd - that because due to AI aggression all long distance weapons were really bad back than. - also comes that unavoidable fact that dealing with skirmishing horse archers was absolutely difficult even irl - that's because for obvious reasons, HA fighting style is the optimal for causing dmg without receiving dmg - too mobile, and too fast to be entrapped if applied properly, and than it would come down to arrows not being infinite..
From different sources what I found was that the best counter used irl for that were actually archers in general - the highlight was how effective chinese crossbows were against the mongols. That means that the game could also try to mimic something like that by making archers much more effective against HA by giving them buffs that allow for better accuracy and higher DPS - issue is that such a change would require drastic armor changes otherwise fians would become a Gatling-gun against all units... - one alternative might be give them bonus dmg against horses... Could work if a line was able to dismount half of the HA unit fast enough that could mitigate the issue because they wouldn't be in melee range and they have no shields.

Personally ass to not have to mess with much, I'd simply add horse dmg bonus to longbows and heavy crossbows. than test it

second layer of change would be to buff all t6+ units across the board to match the king guavas on effectiveness, than tweak lower level troops to not become butter for them to chop around by giving them a tid bit more survivability through direct HP buffs. - there's a reason why good old Warband's level system worked better - troops did get buffs from skills and attributes towards meaningful stats

against my better judgement I've decided to mod BL and am now learning how to do it - if everything goes right I'll bring my own vision over troops + combat and as such everybody will be able to test it - the caveat is that I intend to create a new culture + realm meant to be the sit of the "Dragon Kingdom" basing it upon the entire shenanigan of the campaign's dragon banner - expect those to be OP because the idea's that whomever starts such kingdom will focus on using imperial tech and to enact a merge of all independent cultures to mimic the vision of the empire we got from one of our companions back in Warband "the empire would use the Khergit as horse archers, the vaegir as archers, the swadians as kngihts, the rhodoks and nords as infantry" and as such I have full intention of creating multiple noble troop trees for a single culture with more generic and overall weaker commoner troop tree for it

 

[LyonExodus]

as such he actually found out that Voulgiers became extremely OP

hold on. Shock troops got better against T5 infantry (and cavalry) units, in that case the Legionary, as it's the best sample T5 shielded infantry.
Still, in his video there is no data regarding the lower tiers.
Good thing i have that data since my methodology is different than his. And shock troopers are indeed better against higher tiers than on patch 1.8. but lost a non negligible amount of performance against the lower tiers.
With the casualties against low tiers increasing by 59% in comparison to patch 1.8. and the KD dropping by 46%
Is that worth decreasing the high tier casualty rate by 27% in casaulties and more than double a KD that was very low to begin with on average?

If you have just one side of the data all of a sudden shock troops seem OP, then if you watch the other side not so bright.
Most armies bring more T1 to T4 troops than T5 and T6 so one would assume that both values have to be taken into account when evaluating a unit.

Just my view

 

[xdj1nn]

hold on. Shock troops got better against T5 infantry (and cavalry) units, in that case the Legionary, as it's the best sample T5 shielded infantry.
Still, in his video there is no data regarding the lower tiers.
Good thing i have that data since my methodology is different than his. And shock troopers are indeed better against higher tiers than on patch 1.8. but lost a non negligible amount of performance against the lower tiers.
With the casualties against low tiers increasing by 59% in comparison to patch 1.8. and the KD dropping by 46%
Is that worth decreasing the high tier casualty rate by 27% in casaulties and more than double a KD that was very low to begin with on average?

If you have just one side of the data all of a sudden shock troops seem OP, then if you watch the other side not so bright.
Most armies bring more T1 to T4 troops than T5 and T6 so one would assume that both values have to be taken into account when evaluating a unit.

Just my view

why don't you partner up with him?

I still strongly think that the issue lies with the AI - until they flush a proper behavior that better simulates battles we're going to constantly get shifts solely related to it - we can adjust gear for each AI style, but that won't fix the problem if the AI is changed again later. I strongly believe that the best AI I've seen (but I can't say that with certainty because it's all from memory) was actually the tweaks done to Warband's AI through Formations Mod, which sort of flushed out a very realistic response from formations and armies in general during big battles - it was still crap on a 1v1 situation though, and still couldn't resolve the back-pedaling issue we had back than where we could literally wipe entire armies by running backwards as long as we were patient enough.

From observation over BL, though, what I'd like would to be wider array of commands available for both us and the AI - they could deliberately include aggression regulators through commands and have the AI use it after sampling some optimal examples from players. In fact to me the entirety of the battle AI should be based upon player tactics through data gathering rather than randomly slapping in things and praying it'll work.

 

[LyonExodus]

why don't you partner up with him?

IDK, ask him.
If he was to ask me for some help with the tests i would have helped him hands down, the more information i can have the community access on the subject the better.
I only think that the video he made was a good one to give my channel a shout, even an hidden one.
If he didn't there he probably won't going forward. (he knows i exist but i am not going to force a man to do something he doesn't want to or feels uncomfortable doing)


As for his tests and mine we have different methodologies, and i wish people could access both as i find them to be complementary not contrasting.
It's interesting seeing how two different methods yield different results.
My view on shock troops is very different than the one he had on the video. Same for Cavalry.
And 1.9. revolutionizing combat makes it hard to understand the current picture.

 

[Bluko88]

I remember glaive weapons in mods like Gekokujo, they were very powerful but also very slow and hard to use, since you needed to hit people at with the narrow end of the blade to max out damage.

Glaives are the obvious offender here, but they are historically acceptable weapons. I think a good solution is confining them to 1 of 4 possible equipment sets, the others being armed with a mace, a saber and a lance. This would atleast nerf 75% of KGs on a field. Prolonging the glaive and making it ever so slower would also be a limited solution.
KGs also have excellent armour, and that needs to be nerfed. I guess TW thought that them not having a shield was by itself a nerf, but they're horse archers goddamnit.

Yeah I think you hit the jackpot here, feel a bit stupid for not considering diversifying the equipment sets earlier. Though it's a bit unusual to mix things up this much with a high end unit. (But maybe it's something TW should do more of?)

So I left the Khan's Guard armor alone, since they kind of need it to be the premium horse archer. I also left their bow and 2 quivers alone. But here's what I did do:

• Gave 1 Khan Guard set the Glaive (33%)
• Gave 1 Khan Guard set the Heavy Cavalry Lance (33%)
• Gave 1 Khan Guard set the Fine Steel Saber (33%)
• Redistributed their Skills to be OneHanded 120 and Polearm 160 (so competent with all weapons)

Athletics 60
Riding 200
OneHanded 120
TwoHanded 60
Polearm160
Bow 260
Crossbow 25
Throwing 30

Spoiler: 100 Khan Guard (Hold Fire) vs 100 Elite Cataphract

Only the player would engage this way, and it's still a pretty heavy trade. I'm sure if I ran this scenario more times the Cataphracts would occasionally win themselves.

Spoiler: 100 Khan Guard vs 100 Elite Cataphract in offensive siege with just ram/ladders

A.I. is still a bit drunk behind the wheel when it comes to sieges, get some weird chases/pathfinding

Spoiler: 100 Khan Guard (Hold Fire on Foot) vs 100 Heroic Line Breaker

The important thing here is they are not beating dedicated Shock Troops as "Shock Troops" themselves

With these changes I feel pretty good where the Khan's Guard would be. Maybe a bit OP yet in player hands, but they're no longer a tactical nuke. Still the best horse archer. Can defend themselves pretty well on horseback in melee. But as a foot infantry unit they aren't that exceptional. A comparable force of T5 shielded infantry can generally overwhelm them even if they are firing their arrows. Obviously a good archer, but not on the level of the Fian Champion.


It might not be a bad idea to give them a fourth equipment set with a mace, but I think as 3 set unit equipped this way they'll be in-check. Also this shouldn't too adversely effect how the A.I. uses them. Kind of surprised TW hasn't done this already, maybe somebody lost their posted note?



After testing a 4th Mace set, that's still too strong. And 33% Glaive 66% Saber is also too strong in melee yet. Think below is most balanced now for Khan's Guard:

• Gave 1 Khan Guard set the Glaive (25%)
• Gave 1 Khan Guard set the Heavy Cavalry Lance (25%)
• Gave 1 Khan Guard set the Fine Steel Saber (50%)
• Added 1 Khan Guard set with the Fine Steel Saber (50%)

Spoiler: 100 Khan Guard (Hold Fire w/ 25% Glaives) vs 100 Elite Cataphract

Still win against most other cavalry when in melee only mode, so think that's reasonable for Tier 6 Horse Archer.

Spoiler: XML Code

  <NPCCharacter id="khuzait_khans_guard"
                default_group="HorseArcher"
                level="31"
                name="{=B7oI7AZG}Khuzait Khan's Guard"
                occupation="Soldier"
                culture="Culture.khuzait">
    <face>
      <face_key_template value="BodyProperty.fighter_khuzait" />
    </face>
    <skills>
      <skill id="Athletics"
             value="60" />
      <skill id="Riding"
             value="200" />
      <skill id="OneHanded"
             value="120" />
      <skill id="TwoHanded"
             value="60" />
      <skill id="Polearm"
             value="160" />
      <skill id="Bow"
             value="260" />
      <skill id="Crossbow"
             value="25" />
      <skill id="Throwing"
             value="30" />
    </skills>
    <Equipments>
      <EquipmentRoster>
        <equipment slot="Item0"
                   id="Item.composite_steppe_bow" />
        <equipment slot="Item1"
                   id="Item.steppe_arrows" />
        <equipment slot="Item2"
                   id="Item.steppe_arrows" />
        <equipment slot="Item3"
                   id="Item.khuzait_sword_4_t4" />
        <equipment slot="Body"
                   id="Item.brass_lamellar_over_mail" />
        <equipment slot="Head"
                   id="Item.spiked_helmet_with_facemask" />
        <equipment slot="Leg"
                   id="Item.khuzait_curved_boots" />
        <equipment slot="Gloves"
                   id="Item.eastern_plated_leather_vambraces" />
        <equipment slot="Cape"
                   id="Item.brass_lamellar_shoulder_white" />
      </EquipmentRoster>
      <EquipmentRoster>
        <equipment slot="Item0"
                   id="Item.composite_steppe_bow" />
        <equipment slot="Item1"
                   id="Item.steppe_arrows" />
        <equipment slot="Item2"
                   id="Item.steppe_arrows" />
        <equipment slot="Item3"
                   id="Item.khuzait_sword_4_t4" />
        <equipment slot="Body"
                   id="Item.brass_lamellar_over_mail" />
        <equipment slot="Head"
                   id="Item.spiked_helmet_with_facemask" />
        <equipment slot="Leg"
                   id="Item.khuzait_curved_boots" />
        <equipment slot="Gloves"
                   id="Item.eastern_plated_leather_vambraces" />
        <equipment slot="Cape"
                   id="Item.brass_lamellar_shoulder_white" />
       </EquipmentRoster>
       <EquipmentRoster>
        <equipment slot="Item0"
                   id="Item.composite_steppe_bow" />
        <equipment slot="Item1"
                   id="Item.steppe_arrows" />
        <equipment slot="Item2"
                   id="Item.steppe_arrows" />
        <equipment slot="Item3"
                   id="Item.khuzait_lance_2_t4" />
        <equipment slot="Body"
                   id="Item.brass_lamellar_over_mail" />
        <equipment slot="Head"
                   id="Item.spiked_helmet_with_facemask" />
        <equipment slot="Leg"
                   id="Item.khuzait_curved_boots" />
        <equipment slot="Gloves"
                   id="Item.eastern_plated_leather_vambraces" />
        <equipment slot="Cape"
                   id="Item.brass_lamellar_shoulder_white" />
        </EquipmentRoster>
        <EquipmentRoster>
        <equipment slot="Item0"
                   id="Item.composite_steppe_bow" />
        <equipment slot="Item1"
                   id="Item.steppe_arrows" />
        <equipment slot="Item2"
                   id="Item.steppe_arrows" />
        <equipment slot="Item3"
                   id="Item.khuzait_polearm_1_t4" />
        <equipment slot="Body"
                   id="Item.brass_lamellar_over_mail" />
        <equipment slot="Head"
                   id="Item.spiked_helmet_with_facemask" />
        <equipment slot="Leg"
                   id="Item.khuzait_curved_boots" />
        <equipment slot="Gloves"
                   id="Item.eastern_plated_leather_vambraces" />
        <equipment slot="Cape"
                   id="Item.brass_lamellar_shoulder_white" />
        </EquipmentRoster>
      <EquipmentSet id="khuzait_troop_civilian_template_t3"
                    civilian="true" />
      <equipment slot="Horse"
                 id="Item.t3_khuzait_horse" />
      <equipment slot="HorseHarness"
                 id="Item.steppe_half_barding" />
    </Equipments>
  </NPCCharacter>
</NPCCharacters>

 

[HalfMetalJacket]

I still think whatever they do, they have to change the appearance of the Khan's Guard a little. Like ffs, silver shoulders with brass body looks sill.

Hell, there's so much of that sort of nonsense in BL, its like they don't even care to make troops look nice.

Better yet, just give them armour I've suggested. Lighter, but looks nicer too. And its more in line with hybrid styled units too.

 

[xdj1nn]

I still think whatever they do, they have to change the appearance of the Khan's Guard a little. Like ffs, silver shoulders with brass body looks sill.

Hell, there's so much of that sort of nonsense in BL, its like they don't even care to make troops look nice.

Better yet, just give them armour I've suggested. Lighter, but looks nicer too. And its more in line with hybrid styled units too.

I'd dress them up either under the iconic lamellar + the full square shoulders or with the long plated that matches their iconic gauntlets and leave the bronze lam for melee units

 

[HalfMetalJacket]

I'd dress them up either under the iconic lamellar + the full square shoulders or with the long plated that matches their iconic gauntlets and leave the bronze lam for melee units

So like my idea basically.

 

[xdj1nn]

So like my idea basically.

exactly! haha
The alternative is the set that follows those gauntlet's pattern. Since I find them to look off with other armor I generally tend to use the stripped plates for the hands instead when wearing this specific armor set - can always make both versions as a secondary set too

 

[HalfMetalJacket]

exactly! haha
The alternative is the set that follows those gauntlet's pattern. Since I find them to look off with other armor I generally tend to use the stripped plates for the hands instead when wearing this specific armor set - can always make both versions as a secondary set too

I mean that's possible ye. Just haven't been too bothered finding them. The brown set could also work, though it would look odd with silver shoulders.

 

[Madijeis]

So like my idea basically.

I'd say the gauntlets need to be shinier, maybe the striped gauntlets instead?

 

[HalfMetalJacket]

I'd say the gauntlets need to be shinier, maybe the striped gauntlets instead?

Ye I'd prolly add the plate/strip gauntlets instead next time.