Why is the Khan's Guard so much stronger than the Vanguard Faris?

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xdj1nn

Knight at Arms
WBWF&S
First, great work.
Second. i think there is a way.
On paper the Voulge is a very good weapon, likely even better than the Glaive. yet the Voulgiers are not even close to the performance of a Linebreaker, let alone a KG.
The only thing i know about the Voulgier is that they have crappy armor. just an hint at what also might work.
you think that's just it? Voulge's really slow compared to glaives,
Good work on the testing, really shows how stupidly strong the weapon is.

Reduce the base damage. I'm sure there's a number inbetween 145 and 1 which is balanced.

Alternately, if it's going to be so powerful just take it away from the Khan's Guard and only give it to infantry units.
as I've said, swingable polearms are - but he didn't put into a square number - to me that was a quite biased testing, but than again it is in fact a very OP weapon - albeit similar results would likely emerge with any swingable polearm, like the menavliaton
The reason why some don't shine as much's simply a question of length + speed (which are directly linked) make any spear with swingable tip and a shorter shaft and the result's are going to be the same...

Thing is the weapon isn't wrong, and I don't think it needs nerfing, instead I think armor must be better against cut dmg, in fact, armor should be better against everything except for blunt dmg and situational piercing - hence why momentum or the speed bonus should be calculate before any dmg - what's going on is that there's a deliberate flat dmg and than momentum/speed gets applied on top of it - that's why we end up with such absurd dmg on weapons that gather higher momentum, and the reason why we used to get wrecked by stones from looters.
 
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Ananda_The_Destroyer

Grandmaster Knight
Thing is the weapon isn't wrong, and I don't think it needs nerfing, instead I think armor must be better against cut dmg, in fact, armor should be better against everything except for blunt dmg and situational piercing - hence why momentum or the speed bonus should be calculate before any dmg - what's going on is that there's a deliberate flat dmg and than momentum/speed gets applied on top of it - that's why we end up with such absurd dmg on weapons that gather higher momentum, and the reason why we used to get wrecked by stones from looters.
I agree and I also think at some point TW should take a close looks at speed+ damage and set some max limit for most normal weapons. A little boost is good, but doing 500% from clubbing a guy in the foot just because he was riding really fast is too much and annoying. It makes sense for things like spear and lance to get large bonus though.
 

LyonExodus

Veteran
you think that's just it? Voulge's really slow compared to glaives,
The voulge trades a few speed points for a massive amount of extra raw DMG.
The length of the two weapons is similar.
And 76 speed is honestly not low for a 2H weapon. The best 2H weapons in terms of performance are axes, With the Palace Guard's axe being the best. Altough the Linebreaker ones feels better on the unit but that's thank to their armor not the weapon.
The Executioner axe has a speed of just 78, so very close to the Voulge.

The thing is that speed matters less for 2H weapons in comparison to 1handers. what matters a lot for those weapons is length. In fact one of the worst performers is still the Veteran Falxman that has a 76 speed weapon but 203 length to deal with (on 1.9. they are finally better than the T4). They also have not great armor that plays a role too.

Thing is, on average the Voulgier has less armor than the Falxman (only considering the two most important armor values: Head and Body) but a better weapon. the better weapon makes the unit perform better in the end.

Now. Here we are talking about standard units that have around 130 related weapon skill, the Khan's don't.
Since the Khan's have better weapon skill by nature this boosts their swing speed and DMG output by some astronomical units.

Addressing their weapon is the best possible thing to do as a first step into making them an hybrid unit instead of the bringer of destruction they are now. Their armor can also be copied and diminished until the unit feels way less tanky without changing their aesthetic design.

No matter the way you look at it, the problem with the KGs is their equipment.
And the way weapon skill impacts a unit Swing Speed and DMG, which i find to be OK for the player and lords but unnecessary for AI troops.
I understand that a seasoned warrior is likely going to be faster and such. But if they could compensate that with making the AI even more capable (blocking and such) at higher tiers you get a similar feeling to what we have currently and you will slow down the battles a bit in the process. Another thing a lot of players complain about.

Downside to that you may ask? Some AI might block you every time. to counter that the "crushing trough" mechanic should be increased.
I think we all get annoyed by that 1 recruit stopping our 20Kgs 2H Axe with just a rusty hammer unless we go for an overhead strike that still doesn't have a 100% crush trough rate.

The Khan's are the most glaring example of an OP unit, but they aren't the only one. Altough i am of the mindset that the best troops should be tuned down i think that the Bad ones should also be buffed. Until a sense of balance is found.

I don't expect many changes before the 25th, but at one point i hope they will bring some. Vlandian units needs some shoulders and most Battanian units are way below average.
 

Bluko88

Sergeant
First, great work.
Second. i think there is a way.
On paper the Voulge is a very good weapon, likely even better than the Glaive. yet the Voulgiers are not even close to the performance of a Linebreaker, let alone a KG.
The only thing i know about the Voulgier is that they have crappy armor. just an hint at what also might work.
The issue with the Voulgier is two things:

1. They have a crappy throwing weapon which does more harm than good, since it leaves them open to counter attacks
(See Mr. Chicken's issue with throwing axes in particular)

2. It's also down to their poor armor, but those scarves are fabulous!

Although... the Veteran Falxmen have like no armor and they seem to do okay? I don't really worry about foot shock troops too much as long as they beat up shielded troops. Shock Troops are units you want to hold in reserve til everyone is melee fighting, then you let them loose to "clean up". But oh OOB makes it really difficult to separate them out for this, yay!

Anywho...

I gave the Khan's Guard the Voulge for the LOLs, and surprise not much changed!
ugZE6Gm.jpg


100 Khan's Guard w/ Voulge (in Hold Fire) vs 100 Elite Cataphracts
yuYqXpf.jpg


It's really simple: you can not give cavalry units long swingable polearms or they are going to dominate everything in melee on horseback.


Unless they are basically naked. Their effectiveness on foot will largely be determined by how well armored they are too, which of course the Khan's Guard is quite well equipped in this regard as well.

Being on horseback literally puts you at perfect range to use weapons like the glaive, voulge, menavaliaton. If you've ever played with swingable polearms on horseback you'll soon realize how ludicrous it is. And that's okay for the player character, since a random javelin/arrow will ruin your spree at some point if you're two handing it. But having 100 well armored clones of yourself roaming the battlefield in this manner is basically a cheat code unless you're facing 1000 Fian Champions.

About the only way to bring the Khan's Guard in line is too drastically lower their armor (which means losing everyone's favorite helmet) or give them a different weapon set. I prefer a different weapon set, since I don't think horse archers should be very good in melee.


The problem is if you nerf their armor down to mid-tier (20-30, see below) levels they're not as good a horse archer, BUT they still overwhelm in melee enough to the point I'd say they're OP - just no longer totally broken.
2pfUS2n.jpg


100 "glass" Khans Guard (in Hold Fire) vs 100 Elite Cataphracts
3aOjCfH.jpg



Sorry "this is the way", and I'm sure TW knows it. But somebody's 10 year old nephew must really like F4+F1+F3 with Khans Guard... (or give em two quivers and just a sword, I don't care, but take the damn lightsaber away!)
FO1ppWb.png


Anywho if I talk about balance anymore or waste any more time testing this (seriously there's a reason no other unit on horseback has swingable polearms) I'm going to turn into proverbial Lewis Prothero here
sQYcPxZ.png
 

five bucks

Knight at Arms
Thing is the weapon isn't wrong, and I don't think it needs nerfing, instead I think armor must be better against cut dmg, in fact, armor should be better against everything except for blunt dmg and situational piercing - hence why momentum or the speed bonus should be calculate before any dmg - what's going on is that there's a deliberate flat dmg and than momentum/speed gets applied on top of it - that's why we end up with such absurd dmg on weapons that gather higher momentum, and the reason why we used to get wrecked by stones from looters.
If you just made armor better against everything across the board, then the Glaive would still be doing much better damage faster than everything else, and would still be OP.

Think about it. If KGs are better than everything, and then you nerf everything including KGs, then KGs will still have a large effectiveness gap vs everything else.

The Glaive should simply be removed from the KG
Being on horseback literally puts you at perfect range to use weapons like the glaive, voulge, menavaliaton. If you've ever played with swingable polearms on horseback you'll soon realize how ludicrous it is. And that's okay for the player character, since a random javelin/arrow will ruin your spree at some point if you're two handing it. But having 100 well armored clones of yourself roaming the battlefield in this manner is basically a cheat code unless you're facing 1000 Fian Champions.
Yep.
I would like to be able to use KGs or Fians in a party without feeling like I'm using cheat codes because they're so ridiculously better than everything else.
 

xdj1nn

Knight at Arms
WBWF&S
If you just made armor better against everything across the board, then the Glaive would still be doing much better damage faster than everything else, and would still be OP.

Think about it. If KGs are better than everything, and then you nerf everything including KGs, then KGs will still have a large effectiveness gap vs everything else.

The Glaive should simply be removed from the KG

Yep.
I would like to be able to use KGs or Fians in a party without feeling like I'm using cheat codes because they're so ridiculously better than everything else.
it would not, if the system from 1257ad was mimicked all cutting dmg would be negligible - removing the glaive would also kill the theme of the troop itself, those weapons were indeed used by mongolian HA - similar to chinese HA and even the Samurai - you're basically begging for the culture to be removed, in a way.
 

five bucks

Knight at Arms
it would not, if the system from 1257ad was mimicked all cutting dmg would be negligible
1: Callum has actually said TW aren't going to make massive changes to the armor system. The most we can hope for is alterations. Bear in mind the stage of development we are at. Duh has said there are people at TW who are receptive to the idea of reducing ranged damage, but something like making every single sword in the game useless? Do you think they will do that?
2: Even with such a system, Glaive would still be the best combination of speed, length and damage of any cutting melee weapon. And cutting melee weapons are what most top tier troops use for melee combat.
Removing the glaive would also kill the theme of the troop itself, those weapons were indeed used by mongolian HA - similar to chinese HA and even the Samurai - you're basically begging for the culture to be removed, in a way.
1: Removing the glaive would not kill the theme of the troop, because its theme is "best horse archer in the game". Having a glaive is a cherry on top, an unnecessary one at that.
If the theme is "troop that can do literally everything well", then that's a bad theme which should be discarded.
2: Khuzaits are meant to be Gokturks/Khazars/Kipchaks/Avars etc, first and foremost. Mongolians are only a part of the inspiration of the Khuzait faction, which is a broad pastiche of Central Asian peoples. They are certainly not meant to be Chinese or "Samurai". Mongols did not exist in Europe in the time period Bannerlord is aiming for (600-1100). They were still localized to the area of modern day Mongolia, quite a long way from Europe.
3: Lances were more common among the Mongols than glaive-like weapons; so if Mongol inspiration was the goal, then they should lose the Glaive and get a lance instead!
ae0494cf8fb92ded0efdb711798e1803.jpg

4: I am certainly not asking for the culture to be removed. That is an absolutely ridiculous strawman.
 
The issue with the Voulgier is two things:

1. They have a crappy throwing weapon which does more harm than good, since it leaves them open to counter attacks
(See Mr. Chicken's issue with throwing axes in particular)

2. It's also down to their poor armor, but those scarves are fabulous!

Although... the Veteran Falxmen have like no armor and they seem to do okay? I don't really worry about foot shock troops too much as long as they beat up shielded troops. Shock Troops are units you want to hold in reserve til everyone is melee fighting, then you let them loose to "clean up". But oh OOB makes it really difficult to separate them out for this, yay!

Anywho...

I gave the Khan's Guard the Voulge for the LOLs, and surprise not much changed!
ugZE6Gm.jpg


100 Khan's Guard w/ Voulge (in Hold Fire) vs 100 Elite Cataphracts
yuYqXpf.jpg


It's really simple: you can not give cavalry units long swingable polearms or they are going to dominate everything in melee on horseback.

Unless they are basically naked. Their effectiveness on foot will largely be determined by how well armored they are too, which of course the Khan's Guard is quite well equipped in this regard as well.

Being on horseback literally puts you at perfect range to use weapons like the glaive, voulge, menavaliaton. If you've ever played with swingable polearms on horseback you'll soon realize how ludicrous it is. And that's okay for the player character, since a random javelin/arrow will ruin your spree at some point if you're two handing it. But having 100 well armored clones of yourself roaming the battlefield in this manner is basically a cheat code unless you're facing 1000 Fian Champions.

About the only way to bring the Khan's Guard in line is too drastically lower their armor (which means losing everyone's favorite helmet) or give them a different weapon set. I prefer a different weapon set, since I don't think horse archers should be very good in melee.


The problem is if you nerf their armor down to mid-tier (20-30, see below) levels they're not as good a horse archer, BUT they still overwhelm in melee enough to the point I'd say they're OP - just no longer totally broken.
2pfUS2n.jpg


100 "glass" Khans Guard (in Hold Fire) vs 100 Elite Cataphracts
3aOjCfH.jpg



Sorry "this is the way", and I'm sure TW knows it. But somebody's 10 year old nephew must really like F4+F1+F3 with Khans Guard... (or give em two quivers and just a sword, I don't care, but take the damn lightsaber away!)
FO1ppWb.png


Anywho if I talk about balance anymore or waste any more time testing this (seriously there's a reason no other unit on horseback has swingable polearms) I'm going to turn into proverbial Lewis Prothero here
sQYcPxZ.png
You know, I don't hate the idea of giving them a lance instead. Actually it makes more sense going off inspiration.

But you see glaives are f*cking sick and cool and should stay.
 

Apocal

Grandmaster Knight
2: Khuzaits are meant to be Gokturks/Khazars/Kipchaks/Avars etc, first and foremost. Mongolians are only a part of the inspiration of the Khuzait faction, which is a broad pastiche of Central Asian peoples. They are certainly not meant to be Chinese or "Samurai". Mongols did not exist in Europe in the time period Bannerlord is aiming for (600-1100). They were still localized to the area of modern day Mongolia, quite a long way from Europe.
3: Lances were more common among the Mongols than glaive-like weapons; so if Mongol inspiration was the goal, then they should lose the Glaive and get a lance instead!
ae0494cf8fb92ded0efdb711798e1803.jpg

4: I am certainly not asking for the culture to be removed. That is an absolutely ridiculous strawman.
You should not use history to try to buttress your game preferences. Glaives, or weapons very similar to them, were used across the Eurasian steppe, by basically every single steppe confederation and the lands bordering them as well. It wasn't a Mongol only thing.
 

five bucks

Knight at Arms
You should not use history to try to buttress your game preferences. Glaives, or weapons very similar to them, were used across the Eurasian steppe, by basically every single steppe confederation and the lands bordering them as well. It wasn't a Mongol only thing.
You should more carefully read my posts before replying to them. Nothing you have said is contradictory to what I have said. Glaives being used across the Eurasian steppe does not mean that spears were not more common, and I did not say that glaives were only used by Mongols.

The purpose of saying that Mongols are not the primary focus of Khuzaits' inspiration is that even if they were exclusive users of glaives (which they weren't) then Khuzaits aren't meant to be a 1:1 copy anyway.
 

Apocal

Grandmaster Knight
You should more carefully read my posts before replying to them. Nothing you have said is contradictory to what I have said. Glaives being used across the Eurasian steppe does not mean that spears were not more common, and I did not say that glaives were only used by Mongols.
Then there is no reason for point 2 to be raised in your post. Everyone used them on the Eurasian steppe (including the Chinese), so why does it matter if Khuzaits are supposed to be Goturks or Cumans? Also there is nothing indicating lances were more common among Mongols than glaives (or similar) weapons. They were uncommon in either case, being sorta the rich man's option (probably because using melee weapons effectively meant wearing good armor and wearing good armor meant excessive weight for their horses, which meant guys with even more horses than the required five).
 

geala

Squire
As far as I remember in Japanese warfare the yari/spear was seen as the superior weapon to the naginata in most circumstances for riders. In this game that's of course not nearly the case.

I would feel a bit of a loss if Khan Guards would lose their glaive, cause it's iconic for the Khuzaits, from what wildly mixed inspirations they ever come. While I don't have Fians in my game, a kind of Khan Guard with a glaive currently exists, but it's impact is small because I have a different recruitment system which makes amassing T6 quite difficult.

My Khan Guard has also less armor and just 150 skill in polearms. I'm using a mod which doubles the combat level of each troop, but that applies to all units, so the Khan Guard is a beast but every lower tier troop is a good blocker, maybe that evens it out. All recruits have shields and I also upgraded any T2 to nearly T4 level skill-wise, so there is no real rabble on the battlefield.

Less armor and low skill would be my way to go when trying to tone Khan Guards down. I'm not at all a fan of buffing any T5 or T6 even further, so nerfing Khan Guards it is. If I would play with the vanilla tier system, I would as a last remedy change the glaive to a lance if nothing else would help.
 

Madijeis

Sergeant
WBNW
I remember glaive weapons in mods like Gekokujo, they were very powerful but also very slow and hard to use, since you needed to hit people at with the narrow end of the blade to max out damage.

Glaives are the obvious offender here, but they are historically acceptable weapons. I think a good solution is confining them to 1 of 4 possible equipment sets, the others being armed with a mace, a saber and a lance. This would atleast nerf 75% of KGs on a field. Prolonging the glaive and making it ever so slower would also be a limited solution.
KGs also have excellent armour, and that needs to be nerfed. I guess TW thought that them not having a shield was by itself a nerf, but they're horse archers goddamnit.
 

Terco_Viejo

Spanish Gifquisition
Grandmaster Knight
I have been reading all your comments regarding the glaive and I would like to comment on certain aspects.

Personally I see the glaive khuzait as an exotic weapon which is part of that constructed "identity". Therefore, without going into historical considerations, my opinion is to go for the glaive as much as the panoply available.

Terco_Viejo said: Also consider that the iconography and historical sources that the Khergit-Khuzait faction draws from are of Asian/Oriental origin, making the glaive an exotic weapon both in appearance and use (if we compare them with those of all other factions)... at least in my eyes and it's because of all this together that makes me give it "more plausibility" than other 2h/polearms wielded on horseback.

That said:

1. Weapon itself:

As many of us have pointed out (Bluko88's latest examples being a case in point), there is an obvious problem with the damage that this type of weapon does, especially on horseback...a collateral effect of an inconsistenced aplication of damage/protection formula.​
It is also notorious the excessive size of this type of weapon, highly disproportionate... that's why many players have it as a meta weapon (combination of considerable length + exorbitant damage).​

2. The horseback attack animations:

I've commented in both the MP and SP sections (both in comments and threads), the swing animations with this type of weapon are a real aberration of biomechanics. Taleworlds reused the swing animations with 2h/staff on foot by carrying them the same way in the horseback versions instead of creating a consistent set suitable for this type of action.​
Swinging polearms the way it's implemented is a joke... neither swords at 2h nor axes at 2h should have that handling on horseback with both handling and speed penalties applied to them. Also surprising are the obtuse swing angles, which allow a totally disproportionate hit window.​

In my opinion, Bannerlord should have this same kind of animation for the glaive and other types of swingable horse weapons within the lower hit action windows.

giphy.gif

Here is an old video test where the swing arcs and the length/aesthetics of the weapon were modified to look more realistic (imho). Sadly nothing can be done with animations back then.

source

Unfortunately and despite having tried it here...here...or here... if Taleworlds hasn't reacted yet it's either because they don't care or they don't see a problem with it; sadly for many of us... it's too late for native and it's final build.

With rectified animations out of the equation (plausible) the only hope is to apply usage penalties for these types of weapons on horseback (less speed handling+ less damage + reduced swing polearms arcs + reduced shaft length) and deprive these KG types of units of so much armour advantage.
 

Grank

Master Knight
WBNWVC
This reminds me of a gripe I have with the other side of the horse. Infantry can't do a diagonal swing like this to efficiently take down a rider. You generally attack from a little bit to the side to avoid getting tackled by the horse. In that scenario, a vertical swing needs a high degree of accuracy to land a hit on a moving rider, while a horizontal swing will likely hit the horse instead unless you're swinging a really long weapon. One of the reasons why a long spear is great at taking down riders is because it allows you to aim straight at the rider. However, I can't think of a good control scheme to facilitate diagonal swings while still keeping both the vertical and horizontal ones. If we use mouse movement alone, it feels like the movement range for each swing will be too narrow.

Besides that, I can see an issue with this animation during rider vs rider combat. If the swing comes from below like that it's likely to hit the opponent's horse first, especially if it's really close, which is very likely thanks to the shorter range of the weapon.
 

JunKeteer

Veteran
Everything that @Terco_Viejo noted is the issue.
The calculation scaling for the glaive needs to come down, and this can/should be able to be done without completely affecting the other weapon kits (afaik, as they even show the swing factor when you smith one).
The animation is way too forgiving, doubt they will make a different animation ruleset just for swing polearms (especially at this stage), the window and reach for the damage is just too forgiving.

A 'simple' idea that was brought up, besides the above, have wider equipment presets so maybe only 25% of KGs have glaives (or however they want to ratio it out), that, in a sense, nerfs their potential already. Without hamstringing their power in small scale (ie 10 units), but toning them down when a player or army is 50% KGs or something.
 

xdj1nn

Knight at Arms
WBWF&S
1: Callum has actually said TW aren't going to make massive changes to the armor system. The most we can hope for is alterations. Bear in mind the stage of development we are at. Duh has said there are people at TW who are receptive to the idea of reducing ranged damage, but something like making every single sword in the game useless? Do you think they will do that?
2: Even with such a system, Glaive would still be the best combination of speed, length and damage of any cutting melee weapon. And cutting melee weapons are what most top tier troops use for melee combat.

1: Removing the glaive would not kill the theme of the troop, because its theme is "best horse archer in the game". Having a glaive is a cherry on top, an unnecessary one at that.
If the theme is "troop that can do literally everything well", then that's a bad theme which should be discarded.
2: Khuzaits are meant to be Gokturks/Khazars/Kipchaks/Avars etc, first and foremost. Mongolians are only a part of the inspiration of the Khuzait faction, which is a broad pastiche of Central Asian peoples. They are certainly not meant to be Chinese or "Samurai". Mongols did not exist in Europe in the time period Bannerlord is aiming for (600-1100). They were still localized to the area of modern day Mongolia, quite a long way from Europe.
3: Lances were more common among the Mongols than glaive-like weapons; so if Mongol inspiration was the goal, then they should lose the Glaive and get a lance instead!
ae0494cf8fb92ded0efdb711798e1803.jpg

4: I am certainly not asking for the culture to be removed. That is an absolutely ridiculous strawman.
you know that Calradia isn't Europe right? Arguably aserai didn't exist in Europe neither even if that was the proper reference.
1: Callum has actually said TW aren't going to make massive changes to the armor system. The most we can hope for is alterations. Bear in mind the stage of development we are at. Duh has said there are people at TW who are receptive to the idea of reducing ranged damage, but something like making every single sword in the game useless? Do you think they will do that?
that's a bit childish (this passion over sharp sticks) and what annoys me isn't even that, it's this endless propagation of hollywoodian misinformation, but I can understand it, it's clear the game has strong rooted bias towards swords, look at how many crafting pieces there are for them! xD
That's why I think that's not something easily corrected. I don't think TW would ever make a identical copy to more conservative and realistic approaching takes on dmg and armor, never did, but I had hoped they'd lean a bit more that direction with BL before EA was released, to my disappointment they went the opposite direction.

Just wanted to give these 2 particular takes, and I'll highlight that, again, terco saves the day with proper ideas and more feasible solutions:
I have been reading all your comments regarding the glaive and I would like to comment on certain aspects.

Personally I see the glaive khuzait as an exotic weapon which is part of that constructed "identity". Therefore, without going into historical considerations, my opinion is to go for the glaive as much as the panoply available.



That said:

1. Weapon itself:

As many of us have pointed out (Bluko88's latest examples being a case in point), there is an obvious problem with the damage that this type of weapon does, especially on horseback...a collateral effect of an inconsistenced aplication of damage/protection formula.​
It is also notorious the excessive size of this type of weapon, highly disproportionate... that's why many players have it as a meta weapon (combination of considerable length + exorbitant damage).​

2. The horseback attack animations:

I've commented in both the MP and SP sections (both in comments and threads), the swing animations with this type of weapon are a real aberration of biomechanics. Taleworlds reused the swing animations with 2h/staff on foot by carrying them the same way in the horseback versions instead of creating a consistent set suitable for this type of action.​
Swinging polearms the way it's implemented is a joke... neither swords at 2h nor axes at 2h should have that handling on horseback with both handling and speed penalties applied to them. Also surprising are the obtuse swing angles, which allow a totally disproportionate hit window.​

In my opinion, Bannerlord should have this same kind of animation for the glaive and other types of swingable horse weapons within the lower hit action windows.

giphy.gif

Here is an old video test where the swing arcs and the length/aesthetics of the weapon were modified to look more realistic (imho). Sadly nothing can be done with animations back then.

source

Unfortunately and despite having tried it here...here...or here... if Taleworlds hasn't reacted yet it's either because they don't care or they don't see a problem with it; sadly for many of us... it's too late for native and it's final build.

With rectified animations out of the equation (plausible) the only hope is to apply usage penalties for these types of weapons on horseback (less speed handling+ less damage + reduced swing polearms arcs + reduced shaft length) and deprive these KG types of units of so much armour advantage.
This reminds me of a gripe I have with the other side of the horse. Infantry can't do a diagonal swing like this to efficiently take down a rider. You generally attack from a little bit to the side to avoid getting tackled by the horse. In that scenario, a vertical swing needs a high degree of accuracy to land a hit on a moving rider, while a horizontal swing will likely hit the horse instead unless you're swinging a really long weapon. One of the reasons why a long spear is great at taking down riders is because it allows you to aim straight at the rider. However, I can't think of a good control scheme to facilitate diagonal swings while still keeping both the vertical and horizontal ones. If we use mouse movement alone, it feels like the movement range for each swing will be too narrow.

Besides that, I can see an issue with this animation during rider vs rider combat. If the swing comes from below like that it's likely to hit the opponent's horse first, especially if it's really close, which is very likely thanks to the shorter range of the weapon.
I agree with you, see? I don't need to be disingenuously annoying just because my insecurities got intensified
 

Terco_Viejo

Spanish Gifquisition
Grandmaster Knight
[...]

Besides that, I can see an issue with this animation during rider vs rider combat. If the swing comes from below like that it's likely to hit the opponent's horse first, especially if it's really close, which is very likely thanks to the shorter range of the weapon.
Maybe I didn't explain enough....

If you have a moment, in-game when you are stationary on horseback with a glaive or any weapon you will have noticed there are certain axis points (hinge points) where depending on the angle at which it is framed it triggers one animation or another.

Assuming that the enemy was on foot and we face him to the right of our mount, being a hit below the horizontal line between 270º and 360º the animation would be like the one in the gif. If, on the other hand, the enemy is on horseback, the blow is supposed to land above the horizontal line between 45º and 90º, so the native animation is still valid for this.

In short, you would only have to add an animation for that action window (270º and 360º) to complement the existing ones (45º - 90º / 90º-180º / 180º-270º). Obviously, you would have to have a mirror animation for when the pose is on the other side.

giphy.gif


scDYT.jpg


Also, when hitting, there is the vertical* alignment. These swing angles can be modified so that the rider is "allowed" to swing closer to the belly of the mount by modifying the degrees of inclination. Swinging to right side* at about 90º we would be hitting very close to the legs and at about 45º we would be hitting flat and almost horizontal. Note the swing angle diference:

source

An addition like the animation proposed for that particular window (very much along the lines of the one I commented on for 1h here) + a tweak of the swing arcs would be interesting...


Sorry for the wild spamming 🙏😌

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(*) Edit
 
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LyonExodus

Veteran
It's really simple: you can not give cavalry units long swingable polearms or they are going to dominate everything in melee on horseback.
What if they make the Glaive not usable on horseback? Like longbows.

That way a template like the one you created with the saber could fit. while leaving the Khan's that double edge threat as a dismounted unit and the 1 less quiver makes the Heavy Horse Archers the specialist.
 
What if they make the Glaive not usable on horseback? Like longbows.

That way a template like the one you created with the saber could fit. while leaving the Khan's that double edge threat as a dismounted unit and the 1 less quiver makes the Heavy Horse Archers the specialist.
Considering the gif that Terco showed, I'm... not inclined to believe that glaives are too difficult to use on horseback.

I do think a more constrained striking zone would be a good start though.
 
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