WHY is the class system staying?

Koshkasa

Veteran
M&BWBWF&SNWVC
Best answers
0
THE POLLS ARE 100% REPRESENTATIVE.
The polls represent opinions of people who partake in polls. It's the general problem of gathering statistical data and our case is no exception.
That group and the general population of the game can vary in size to the point where the poll may become unrepresentative of the opinion of the general population.
An in-game obligatory voting dialogue box would be better, if we could ever get one. xD

People didn't always take the same equipment. Not everyone is a tryhard. Just hop in a server of deathmatch in warband and see how much people you see with the "optimal" equipment.
I'm not talking tryhards, though. We don't even have to talk Warband at all since it's a general gaming tendency, not a game-specific one. You usually have the same order of progression of tools in Minecraft and the same preferred weapon in Apex even when you have the ability to pick other options. Not because you're lazy, or limited by the game, or tryharding, it's simply the way that's most optimal for you to have a good time and an enjoyable game.
I'll trust your judgement, though, I didn't play long enough to know which equipment is "optimal" in Warband.


It's the sense of progress I miss. I get 5 kills without dying? I am now stronger next round for my efforts when it comes to Warband. I go 12 kills in 2 rounds without dying in Bannerlord and I haven't achieved anything.
Fair enough. Is dismantling the class system in all its entirety the only way around it, though?
 

DainMorgot

Regular
Best answers
0
Fair enough. Is dismantling the class system in all its entirety the only way around it, though?
Unless they cant make class system offering different armor choice, different weapon choice, different shield choice, throwing weapons choice all implemented together and remove the pre-set movement speed on classes but make it to be based on actual equipment then yes, moving back to the superior warband class hybrids is the only way.
 

Younes123

Sergeant Knight at Arms
WBWF&SNWVC
Best answers
0
The polls represent opinions of people who partake in polls. It's the general problem of gathering statistical data and our case is no exception.
That group and the general population of the game can vary in size to the point where the poll may become unrepresentative of the opinion of the general population.
An in-game obligatory voting dialogue box would be better, if we could ever get one. xD
iirc some of us suggesting this back in the beta, nothing ever came of it. The thing you have to understand is that many of us want a poll to be made about it. We WANT to know what people know about it, contrary to believe by some we only push our own agenda. The problem is that the forums is the only close thing we will get to gathering data about what people think about the game. And its clear people dislike it

I'm not talking tryhards, though. We don't even have to talk Warband at all since it's a general gaming tendency, not a game-specific one. You usually have the same order of progression of tools in Minecraft and the same preferred weapon in Apex even when you have the ability to pick other options. Not because you're lazy, or limited by the game, or tryharding, it's simply the way that's most optimal for you to have a good time and an enjoyable game.
I'll trust your judgement, though, I didn't play long enough to know which equipment is "optimal" in Warband.
I think its a common misconception about warband. People don't take OPTIMAL loadouts, they take loudouts they LIKE. There is a massive difference some people here on the forums don't seem to be able to make apart.

As someone who has spend around 4k on the game, i can assure i never take the best loadouts, in the contrary i believe people who spend enough hours on the game have more an urge to pick more "stupid" classes but its something more of personal preference and from what i've experienced, take it with a bit of salt.

Fair enough. Is dismantling the class system in all its entirety the only way around it, though?
Making a new one from scratch and making both live side by side is.
 

Mabons

Knight
M&BWBWF&SNWVC
Best answers
0
Ah yeah. Nice. I also saw you once having a bad score and whining about how unfit the class system is whilst getting your ass smacked.
Except I don't whine about the class system in game because that would be truly fruitless. So I guess the others are right when you compulsively lie in your posts 🤡 🤡 🤡

Fair enough. Is dismantling the class system in all its entirety the only way around it, though?
In a way, yes. The only way to "progress" in the game right now, is to scrape enough gold for 2 heavy cav spawns and that's it, your as strong as you get. Unless they start giving us "perk tiers" as in, everyone starts with Perk 1, with enough gold they can get Perk 2, then maybe lots of gold gives them Perk 3, and these perks get progressively better gear for your class. But they have given a reason for the class system is it "prevents snowballing" so that is probably not in their scope.

For quick reference this is what Taleworlds reasoning behind the class system is:
  • Prevent snowballing
  • Making picking equipment simpler. New players don't know what to pick and why, and spawning time is limited.
  • We wanted to see fully armored knights AND peasants on the same battlefield and they should NOT be equal in power.
  • And we want to see both of them available on round 1.
  • We want the knight to be able to picked by anyone, not by the already skilled player who killed everyone and now has enough money to buy the equipment.
  • Making troops distinctive enough with a glance you know all about what you are facing. Capabilities, gear, etc.
  • Giving each class a predetermined purpose. To enable players to work on building effective teams, adapting tactics depending on the situation.
  • To provide better visuals for the spectators or other players by having properly dressed soldiers. Knights looking like knights, Crossbowmen looking like crossbowmen etc.
  • To be able to use the same system for all game modes - Captain mode and Skirmish mode etc.

Here is the link which this is from. This is the massive discussion thread that was made by Callum to contain the many threads about it in the beta. You can read through it and see that people gave polite, constructive answers, from competitive, to casual, to even the forums own moderators. Here is the final reply we've had on the matter AFAIK.

I've given up on trying to get the customization from Warband back, I will wait for some mod to come out once I've hit my 750 wins and maybe play it.
 

Sundeki

Sergeant Knight at Arms
M&BWB
Best answers
0
Do you MP veterans mind reinstating what exactly is wrong with classes? Having played a little bit of both Warband MP and Bannerlord MP, I can feel the systems are different, but not that one is inherently worse than the others.

It's more restrictive, sure. But whether you have 1 option to pick out of 2, or 1 option to pick out of 3.000.000, sooner or later everyone will gravitate to a state of maximum efficiency, picking that one most efficient option over all others, regardless of how many unpicked ones there are. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I suspect that in truth players with 5k hours in Warband MP ended up picking roughly the same sets of stuff for specific playstyles they enjoyed, not making a random assortment of items for customization's sake.
It depends on what people are trying to do.

Competitive play universally sees people gravitate towards the most optimal build. It doesn't matter what kind of class/customization system is in play. Hypothetically: if Bannerlord was in a polished state as of right now, then in competitive play nobody would ever pick 2h infantry(no shield against archers which are much stronger than their warband counterparts), nobody would willingly pick the peasant, nobody would ever pick the light skirmisher infantry. There's also the thing about Warband where the competitive community universally banned Khergits, not because they're unbalanced, but because nobody wants to play against Horse Archers, so hypothetically if a competitive community arose, Horse Archers would be banned as a class selection as well (I would advocate for it). So in the end most of the class system as it is now is essentially useless as well. And of those classes, there is so few customization options, and even then they're put into two specific categories, which means one is always going to be that much better than the others in each selection. Bannerlord's 'optimized' play is in an even more restrictive and limited viable equipment options while being even less balanced. There will always be that one selection that is stronger than the other, meaning that Bannerlord's premade class system suffers the same flaw(and always will) as Warband's equipment selection, but it then adds the problems highlighted below that didn't exist in Warband.

As for casual play: who actually spams the most optimal equipment in a pub server? Playing around with less than optimal equipment choices, and fun strange loadouts, is half the game. If you're using the exact same loadout constantly, the game gets tedious, even in Warband. But all of the other strange and less optimal loadouts/weapons make the game interesting, not only for the sake of improving your skill, but for raw fun. All of this is simply not there in Bannerlord, leading to people getting seriously bored very quickly. Only a few people on my friends list play Bannerlord at all anymore, with the poorly designed combat mechanics and this terrible class system being the equally cited reasons as to why, when I asked a number of them. One can forgive a lot about an unpolished and unbalanced game, if the player has the agency to customize the way they play, and create playstyles and loadouts that fit their personality and mindset, leading to a plethora of otherwise unoptimized loadouts flourishing in pubs in Warband. This simply doesn't exist in Bannerlord, where you're forced into cookie cutter options that ruin all of the creativity and fun of experimenting with different and wacky loadouts.

If you have the time and you want a full list of the issues people have with the class system, I suggest you read through the hundreds of pages people have typed out on this forum about the issue. The key issue is of course that this new system stops people from being able to play in the way that they want to play. Which is by itself reason enough, especially in an RPG.

Fair enough. Is dismantling the class system in all its entirety the only way around it, though?
Unfortunately, the two systems are close to an antithesis of the other. They're completely different and completely incompatible. Which is why the gamemodes designed for Warband's class system (Siege, Duel, Battle, TDM) are so completely out of place with this class system. Pretty much everyone can agree that the new class system works for Captain's Mode, and I doubt almost anyone is calling for it to be removed from that. We've been asking for TaleWorlds to compromise by either creating a New custom class option that exists within this class system, where the premade selections still exist, while giving those people that want it the option to customize their class, OR by creating two different, parallel class systems, and keeping the existing premade classes for Captain's Mode, while creating a Warband-esque class system for Battle/Siege/Duel/TDM. Both were met with zero response.
 

Younes123

Sergeant Knight at Arms
WBWF&SNWVC
Best answers
0
Thank you for your time. I genuinely believe you wish the best for the game.
I guess I spend too much time in Captain to fully realise the hinderance classes could potentially be for Skirmish.
You should try duel or TDM, it gets boring real quick
 

Maroon

Grandmaster Knight
WBWF&SNW
Best answers
0
Thank you for your time. I genuinely believe you wish the best for the game.
I guess I spend too much time in Captain to fully realise the hinderance classes could potentially be for Skirmish.
The class system works really well for Captain, and decently well for Skirmish, so it's no wonder it's not very noticeable there. It's with gamemodes like Siege and other upcoming largescale gamemodes where the points mentioned above truly begin to become a problem.
 

Spice

Recruit
Best answers
0
The in-game poll about the class system would be great. It could restore my faith in Talewords caring about multiplayer. I can assure you there would be at least 10 polls against the class system from me and my friends. You may have met me in skirmish as we casually play Bannerlord hoping it will get better.

The saddest thing for me is that one friend even rejected to play the game until he won't be restricted by the game in what to choose and what faction to play.

As was already said few times: How many people will remain in the base game multiplayer when modding the multiplayer becomes possible?
 

Delinard

Regular
WBNW
Best answers
0
And you say that based on what? The thread itself has 317 upvotes, and the top comment dissing the class system has 173 points. Unless I'm missing something I think it's hard to judge.
Since when is opinion based between upvotes on OP and his critic? When a dev goes out of his way to interact with people on reddit, why would anybody downvote him?
 

Maroon

Grandmaster Knight
WBWF&SNW
Best answers
0
Since when is opinion based between upvotes on OP and his critic? When a dev goes out of his way to interact with people on reddit, why would anybody downvote him?
His "argument" is that there are "only" 173 people who agree with the point, and that it is therefore a minority, and that it therefore not representative of what Bannerlord players want.
We're better off reiterating exactly what our problems are than trying to make 2 people who base their argument on an entirely different form of reasoning understand why that's stupid. The collective forum has tried to do that since August and has failed, so we're best off just ignoring it at this point.
 

leewong

Recruit
Best answers
0
I cannot express just how truly disappointed I am in bannerlord. I dont care to type out a massive list of reasons why, either. It would just be ignored like all our feedback during alpha/beta testing. I dont see this all turning around when mods hit, either. I am completely soured on the game and I know I cant be alone. I am done. Last time you see me here, folks. Have fun and stay safe out there.
 

shatti

Veteran
Best answers
0
I cannot express just how truly disappointed I am in bannerlord. I dont care to type out a massive list of reasons why, either. It would just be ignored like all our feedback during alpha/beta testing. I dont see this all turning around when mods hit, either. I am completely soured on the game and I know I cant be alone. I am done. Last time you see me here, folks. Have fun and stay safe out there.
warband u can play,
the mount and siege server is like: "didn't noticed there is a new m&b game"
same numbers as last year
 

Caps

Knight at Arms
WBWF&SNWVC
Best answers
0
So do i, but only for captain and maybe skirmish. Not for all gamemodes
these are legit the only working gamemodes... siege is crashing non stop and tdm, its tdm, you play that if you got nothing better to play
 

Younes123

Sergeant Knight at Arms
WBWF&SNWVC
Best answers
0
these are legit the only working gamemodes... siege is crashing non stop and tdm, its tdm, you play that if you got nothing better to play
You don't need to play deathmatch or battle to know it won't fit.

Also i would play the game if the game didn't crash my computer