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Why is Tactics so focused on simulation?

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guiskj

Squire
Why on earth would the Tactics skill tree's perk focus so heavily on simulated battles?

Bannerlord biggest achievement is cool large(ish) scale fights. Why would a player waste precious Focus Points on a skill that has its main advantage placed on a facet of gameplay that is mostly designed for AI (simulated battles)??

Am I missing a large section of the player base that chooses to mostly auto-resolve fights? And if so, what else do you do in this game??
 
Am I missing a large section of the player base that chooses to mostly auto-resolve fights? And if so, what else do you do in this game??

I open up the inventory page and look at my character and feel pretty cool. Wait, no I do that with Verminite II. Well actually I do that in both games.
 

Lord Irontoe

Master Knight
Tactics seems to really only be useful for companion party leaders, who are gonna be fighting most of their battles as simulations. For the player, the main thing it's good for is letting you sacrifice less men when you run away from an enemy. There are a couple of ok perks in there, but they're hardly worth the focus points
 

Flesson19

Not a Cookie
Knight
Which is sad because fighting is about tactics, the tactics you learn in battles player battles against AI help being able to take on them while being seriously outnumbered, maybe if they re did them and made one side for simulations but seriously ramped up their power and the other side for player run tactics would make it more appealing
 

guiskj

Squire
Right, but that is my point, the fact that there is an entire skill in the character leveling system, a RPG system that is meant to allow customization of player characters, that is almost worthless to human players baffles me beyond measure.

It is stuff like this that screams to me that TW does not have a single gram of Game Design chops in their midst. A single player game should be 100% about the player, everything else is just a supporting cast.
 

Flesson19

Not a Cookie
Knight
Right, but that is my point, the fact that there is an entire skill in the character leveling system, a RPG system that is meant to allow customization of player characters, that is almost worthless to human players baffles me beyond measure.

It is stuff like this that screams to me that TW does not have a single gram of Game Design chops in their midst. A single player game should be 100% about the player, everything else is just a supporting cast.
I do use some simlutations, since it gives more prisoners if I am looking for that but for the most part tactics is the one non combat skill I use the least, it does need some love
 

menuisier100

It's among my favorites non-combat skill. I personally level it 2nd after steward.

- It's a big time saver for me whenever I encounter a group that is like 1/10 my strength, I know I wont enjoy "the fight".
- Also allow me to actually participate in defensive sieges with smaller amount of losses.
- Helps correcting a mistake when caught or misjudge a situation (I prefer not save scumming)
- I believe it's also the only stat that matters for a companion leading anything

One thing I'd suggest is taking over an army controls if your tactical level is higher than current is (helping AI can be hair-pulling level of frustration)
 

Flesson19

Not a Cookie
Knight
It's among my favorites non-combat skill. I personally level it 2nd after steward.

- It's a big time saver for me whenever I encounter a group that is like 1/10 my strength, I know I wont enjoy "the fight".
- Also allow me to actually participate in defensive sieges with smaller amount of losses.
- Helps correcting a mistake when caught or misjudge a situation (I prefer not save scumming)
- I believe it's also the only stat that matters for a companion leading anything

One thing I'd suggest is taking over an army controls if your tactical level is higher than current is (helping AI can be hair-pulling level of frustration)
true I hate joining a fight and no one is the ultimate commander, so I just use other lords as cannon fodder, that is my "tactic"
 
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guiskj

Squire
I don't mind some of the tactics tree being sim stuff, but the whole thing is which is disappointing.
Absolutely agree. It makes sense that some of the perks be about simulation, especially secondary effects of perks. But its primary effects should all be applicable to either the world map and/or active battles.
 

Adrivan

Sergeant at Arms
Maybe orders such as Shield Wall should be something that you unlock through a Tactics perk.
Or they could add some new advanced orders that you can give to troops, and you need high level tactics to learn them.
 

Lord Irontoe

Master Knight
Maybe orders such as Shield Wall should be something that you unlock through a Tactics perk.
Or they could add some new advanced orders that you can give to troops, and you need high level tactics to learn them.
The tragically underrated M&B spin-off game, Gloria Sinica-Han Xiongu wars did this and it worked pretty well. You'd start the game with a few basic formations, but as you leveled tactics, you could learn more advanced formations. But then, that game had a lot more interesting formations than Bannerlord has.
 

Flesson19

Not a Cookie
Knight
The tragically underrated M&B spin-off game, Gloria Sinica-Han Xiongu wars did this and it worked pretty well. You'd start the game with a few basic formations, but as you leveled tactics, you could learn more advanced formations. But then, that game had a lot more interesting formations than Bannerlord has.
there we go, a good idea that we hope TW will hear about and someday implement, hey I can hope, right
 

Lord Irontoe

Master Knight
there we go, a good idea that we hope TW will hear about and someday implement, hey I can hope, right
What was cool about the Gloria Sinica formations is that they applied to your whole army. So there'd be formations like "Flying Crane Wings" with the archers fanned out on the wings with the infantry up ahead in the center as the crane's head and the cav in reserve as the tail. Or there was one anti-horse archer formation where your troops set up a circle of wagons with the archers in the center, the infantry guarding the gaps between the wagons and the cavalry outside charging the enemy HAs. You could still use all the regular Warband orders, these just existed at a higher army level. That game actually had a surprisingly good "delegate commands" option too. My troops would do pretty well just fighting on their own without my input.
 

guiskj

Squire
What was cool about the Gloria Sinica formations is that they applied to your whole army. So there'd be formations like "Flying Crane Wings" with the archers fanned out on the wings with the infantry up ahead in the center as the crane's head and the cav in reserve as the tail. Or there was one anti-horse archer formation where your troops set up a circle of wagons with the archers in the center, the infantry guarding the gaps between the wagons and the cavalry outside charging the enemy HAs. You could still use all the regular Warband orders, these just existed at a higher army level. That game actually had a surprisingly good "delegate commands" option too. My troops would do pretty well just fighting on their own without my input.
This is important, if you are going to lock formations behind perks.

These unlocks need to be useful. I would imagine the majority of us always, on every battle, put infantry in shield wall formation and archers in loose and those are the only formation changes we make. And even on hardest difficulty, this is enough.

I would, instead, suggest that early perks give bonus to these common formations (line, shield wall, loose) where the main effect would be a bonus to active battles and the secondary a bonus to simulation battles.

Then later perks give big juicy bonus to the less used formations in unique situations, such as "35% damage reduction to units in circle formation when damaged by mounted archers". These perks would incentivise the player to adapt their playstyle and create distinct feelings to different encounters.

Peppered between these I would add perks for niche things such as world map benefits, retreat and disorganization (which honestly are all there and are the few good perks in my opinion). But also things like allowing the player to actively make their army look smaller to neighboring enemy parties with lower Tactics/Scout skills, as well as the opposite. Or the ability to let the player choose where in the battle map they start in (closer or farther from enemy, already in the trees or in higher ground).

And this reinforces my point of Game Design. You want to enforce player agency, make the player feel like they have control over the situations they are in and that you are giving them new toys to play with. Perks that only add percentage bonus are FILLER PERKS. They are necessary to pad the perk tree but when most of them are like this then what is the point of perks when the Skill Level itself is all about percentage bonus itself?
 

Apocal

Grandmaster Knight
The tragically underrated M&B spin-off game, Gloria Sinica-Han Xiongu wars did this and it worked pretty well. You'd start the game with a few basic formations, but as you leveled tactics, you could learn more advanced formations. But then, that game had a lot more interesting formations than Bannerlord has.

Is that the one with a bunch of "we didn't rip this, we swear" OSP assets in it? Where you could get married to an imperial princess and request a regiment of troops from the Emperor himself? If it is the same one I'm thinking about, it had a more RTS style command system and bigger maps (in proportion to its size) in general.

(Also it was buggy as ****.)
 

Ling*

Knight at Arms
Maybe orders such as Shield Wall should be something that you unlock through a Tactics perk.
Or they could add some new advanced orders that you can give to troops, and you need high level tactics to learn them.
I like the idea behind this, adding extra formations that a player can unlock as he levels up his tactics. It makes perfect sense too and would carry the skill further away from being a simulation-only skill.
 

Lord Irontoe

Master Knight
Is that the one with a bunch of "we didn't rip this, we swear" OSP assets in it? Where you could get married to an imperial princess and request a regiment of troops from the Emperor himself? If it is the same one I'm thinking about, it had a more RTS style command system and bigger maps (in proportion to its size) in general.

(Also it was buggy as ****.)
It might be the same one. I know they licensed the Warband engine, but I don't recall anything about ripped assets. It seemed like it was using a lot of the same assets as some of the other big chinese mods, but I have no idea where they came from. The game did have quite a few bugs and a hilariously awful translation, but if you could look past that, it had some very interesting design ideas in it. I always tried to recommend it to mod authors, who might be able to borrow some of its ideas. Like, it had a freelancer system that was actually pretty fun and rewarding, and probably the most complex and in-depth custom troop systems I'd ever seen. Too complex to be fun, but interesting nonetheless.
 

Ananda_The_Destroyer

Master Knight
What was cool about the Gloria Sinica formations is that they applied to your whole army. So there'd be formations like "Flying Crane Wings" with the archers fanned out on the wings with the infantry up ahead in the center as the crane's head and the cav in reserve as the tail. Or there was one anti-horse archer formation where your troops set up a circle of wagons with the archers in the center, the infantry guarding the gaps between the wagons and the cavalry outside charging the enemy HAs. You could still use all the regular Warband orders, these just existed at a higher army level. That game actually had a surprisingly good "delegate commands" option too. My troops would do pretty well just fighting on their own without my input.
I couldn't figure out how to make it in english so I refunded it. Looked pretty cool though.
 
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