Why is balance a thing for singleplayer?

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Viranto

Regular
You are literally describing balance. Asymmetrical balance.
Ah, damn you're right. Its still balancing, but in other style :grin: But yes, i mean more or less the unique of each faction and the units/ armors feel to much the same and changing only the visual.
 

Magello

Sergeant
I vote for something to be changed to make you have to really know and learn about the other factions troops. Right now, I don't have to plan or use any real strategy to decimate any army no matter what they have. There doesn't need to be anything else done, one army is the same as another. I think this is what the OP was getting at, we just load up a battle and pretty much do the same strategies every time. Not saying everyone does but the fact you can is a problem. This may actually come down to armor/weapons being to similar and really changing how we should approach an enemy.

I want to fear an army sporting t5 infantry or need to try and force a forest battle against t5 archers.
 

niekdegrijze

Sergeant at Arms
I vote for something to be changed to make you have to really know and learn about the other factions troops. Right now, I don't have to plan or use any real strategy to decimate any army no matter what they have. There doesn't need to be anything else done, one army is the same as another. I think this is what the OP was getting at, we just load up a battle and pretty much do the same strategies every time. Not saying everyone does but the fact you can is a problem. This may actually come down to armor/weapons being to similar and really changing how we should approach an enemy.

I want to fear an army sporting t5 infantry or need to try and force a forest battle against t5 archers.
Yes, a new war should make you rethink your army composition and tactics. The only faction that had that effect on me was the khuzaits. I would like one faction to focus on quantity and another on quality. One faction on strong infantry with a heavier preference for siege warfare. Another faction on cavalry and a preference for raiding and forcing field battles.
 

Midnitewolf

Sergeant
Not everyone likes to just open the final chapter to see whodunnit when reading a mystery novel. As a matter of fact, I would argue this is actually the prevalent case when people actually buy books and read them.

Same with a game. Even playing for yourself. A game is a set of rules and challenges the player follows, whose goal becomes winning at it with those given rules. When that standard rules and challenges bend easily, then there's no point in playing the game at all. Removing the sense of balance on grounds of "single player" is literally self-denial of something being a game at all.

The developers of a game come to a certain standard of what they want the players to face as a challenge. If you want to disregard that, that's what mods are for. (which, ironically means most mods actually make the game 'worse,' in that many of them arbitrarily changes balance to personal liking without a strong standard of where to put the balance at)
This is too simplistic a view. There is a reason for games having multiple difficulty levels and that is because each and every one of us has a different tolerance for the rules of a game. To use your book analogy, some people will sit down and happily read a complex 1000 page mystery novel while others couldn't ever see themselves reading something more complex than a detective comic.

As far games, what a developer tends to try to do is find a way to appeal to the broadest audience so they can see as many copies possible. It is no some metaphysical desire to impose a set of challenges on a player that can't be bypassed. That is something artists think about but not a game developer whos underlying motivation is money. This is why even in native you can do things like turn down the damage you, your parties or your allies take and change the difficulty of the combat AI. They realize not everyone is going to want to same level of difficulty.

Also the beauty of a single player game is that only one person has to be pleased by the experience and that is you the player. I would like to think that most of us, to use your words, have a "strong standard" of where to put the balance at for ourselves without having it dictated to us. Again this is why most games with at least 2-3 difficulty levels built in. In a game like Bannerlord which was literally designed from the ground up to be modded, luckily we have a game that allows us tweak it to fit our personal standards and that is great. With this game you can literally have a walk in the park or a trip through hell, what is not to like about that.

As far as worrying about balance though, balance is an illusion. Unless everything is equal 100%, your always going to have some imbalance. In Bannerlord you have different troop types, different weapons, different easy of recruiting specific troops, map geography, etc., etc., all of which will change the balance and changing one minor thing in one place can easily have a ripple effect through the entire game. Your never going to get perfect balance, it just can't happen so why worry about it. This is especially true when like I mentioned earlier, most people will mod the game and it is very likely the mod will change the balance in some way form or fashion. You just can't escape it. Also if you plan to never mod this game, your doing it wrong. The only reason Bannerlord exists is because of the popularity of the many mods that came out of Warband. If not for these mods, Warband would have been a game that was forgotten many, many years ago.
 
If not for these mods, Warband would have been a game that was forgotten many, many years ago.
According to steam stats less than half of people have ever installed a mod. People bought Bannerlord before there were any overhaul mods (there still aren't, and likely won't be any at this rate). I'm not convinced that mods are more than just icing on the cake for most buyers.
 

Midnitewolf

Sergeant
According to steam stats less than half of people have ever installed a mod. People bought Bannerlord before there were any overhaul mods (there still aren't, and likely won't be any at this rate). I'm not convinced that mods are more than just icing on the cake for most buyers.
There are two types of people who bought Bannerlord. Those who played Warband and those that didn't. If they had never played Warband then they bought the game because of the marketing and hype that was out at the time of the game. If they played Warband, they bought Bannerlord because of the legacy of amazing total overhaul mods that were and are prevalent in that game.

Native Warband, while fun, was an entirely forgettable game. It was worth 40-50 hours of play and that was it. The reason I have over 2000 hours played in Warband was because I saw a mod on Youtube and my jaw dropped. Form the second I installed the Mod I was hooked and there has been no game like it ever. Never have I been able to buy one game but play a couple dozen different ones. I played Game of Thrones (2 versions of it), Lord of the Rings (2 versions of it), Warhammer, 3-5 completely new fantasy IPs such as Prophecy of Pendor and Persino, a few mods that just enhanced the Native experience, at least 10 historical variations ranging from a 1500-1600 AD Renaissance version to Feudal Japan to the Crusades to the Napoleonic period to Vikings to one mod even set in the areas of South East Asia like Vietnam, Cambodia and Thailand. Hell there are even sci-fi mods like Star Wars available for Warband. That is why I have 2000+ hours into Warband and why I bought Bannerlord. Bannerlord Native is the same as Warband. 40-50 hours then done. Probably still a buy if there were no mods but I am expecting another 10 years and thousands of hours out of Bannerlord mods.

I also think this is why anyone who played Warband bought Bannerlord despite no existing mods at the time EA released, because we know (hope) that eventually there will be.

As for why so many people on Steam never used mods, well if you haven't played Warband, you might not even know that the game has mods. I mean EVERY game that can be modded typically has a Steam Workshop where users and can upload and download directly from Steam. However for some odd reason, Bannerlord doesn't have a Steam Workshop. Maybe they are waiting for a full release but it honestly wouldn't surprise me that anyone new to the franchise is pretty clueless about how important mods are to the success of this game. The problem is now it might be too late for most of those players because they came, the saw, the played their 40-50 hours, got bored and now this game isn't even on their radar any longer. Many will probably never figure out that the best, most enjoyable gameplay this game has to offer is through mods.
 

Apocal

Master Knight
There are two types of people who bought Bannerlord. Those who played Warband and those that didn't. If they had never played Warband then they bought the game because of the marketing and hype that was out at the time of the game. If they played Warband, they bought Bannerlord because of the legacy of amazing total overhaul mods that were and are prevalent in that game.

Native Warband, while fun, was an entirely forgettable game. It was worth 40-50 hours of play and that was it. The reason I have over 2000 hours played in Warband was because I saw a mod on Youtube and my jaw dropped. Form the second I installed the Mod I was hooked and there has been no game like it ever. Never have I been able to buy one game but play a couple dozen different ones. I played Game of Thrones (2 versions of it), Lord of the Rings (2 versions of it), Warhammer, 3-5 completely new fantasy IPs such as Prophecy of Pendor and Persino, a few mods that just enhanced the Native experience, at least 10 historical variations ranging from a 1500-1600 AD Renaissance version to Feudal Japan to the Crusades to the Napoleonic period to Vikings to one mod even set in the areas of South East Asia like Vietnam, Cambodia and Thailand. Hell there are even sci-fi mods like Star Wars available for Warband. That is why I have 2000+ hours into Warband and why I bought Bannerlord. Bannerlord Native is the same as Warband. 40-50 hours then done. Probably still a buy if there were no mods but I am expecting another 10 years and thousands of hours out of Bannerlord mods.

I also think this is why anyone who played Warband bought Bannerlord despite no existing mods at the time EA released, because we know (hope) that eventually there will be.

As for why so many people on Steam never used mods, well if you haven't played Warband, you might not even know that the game has mods. I mean EVERY game that can be modded typically has a Steam Workshop where users and can upload and download directly from Steam. However for some odd reason, Bannerlord doesn't have a Steam Workshop. Maybe they are waiting for a full release but it honestly wouldn't surprise me that anyone new to the franchise is pretty clueless about how important mods are to the success of this game. The problem is now it might be too late for most of those players because they came, the saw, the played their 40-50 hours, got bored and now this game isn't even on their radar any longer. Many will probably never figure out that the best, most enjoyable gameplay this game has to offer is through mods.
He was referring to Warband when he wrote that less than half the people who bought the game actually installed a mod.

edit: And Warband's sales had the same frontload that Bannerlord's did, as far as I can tell.
 

Lord Irontoe

Master Knight
Native Warband, while fun, was an entirely forgettable game. It was worth 40-50 hours of play and that was it. The reason I have over 2000 hours played in Warband was because I saw a mod on Youtube and my jaw dropped. Form the second I installed the Mod I was hooked and there has been no game like it ever. Never have I been able to buy one game but play a couple dozen different ones. I played Game of Thrones (2 versions of it), Lord of the Rings (2 versions of it), Warhammer, 3-5 completely new fantasy IPs such as Prophecy of Pendor and Persino, a few mods that just enhanced the Native experience, at least 10 historical variations ranging from a 1500-1600 AD Renaissance version to Feudal Japan to the Crusades to the Napoleonic period to Vikings to one mod even set in the areas of South East Asia like Vietnam, Cambodia and Thailand. Hell there are even sci-fi mods like Star Wars available for Warband. That is why I have 2000+ hours into Warband and why I bought Bannerlord. Bannerlord Native is the same as Warband. 40-50 hours then done. Probably still a buy if there were no mods but I am expecting another 10 years and thousands of hours out of Bannerlord mods.
Don't downplay native Warband. If native wasn't great on its own merits, few people would've been engaged enough to seek out mods in the first place, and even fewer would have committed to making those mods.

And you can't put all your hopes into Bannerlord's mod scene saving it. If they don't get the base game right, players will lose interest and the mod scene could dry right up before even getting a chance to flourish. I don't think a lot of people are interested in modding a game that's not already fun to begin with. I'm already starting to see a slowdown in the amount of new mods coming out each week compared to last year. Hopefully it picks up again when the game's farther along in development, but there's no guarantee that all these great mods will actually appear. It all depends on how good the native game turns out in the end.
 
I don't think a lot of people are interested in modding a game that's not already fun to begin with.

Mods crop up for trash games all the time. Bannerlord had mods back when it was basically unplayable back in the beta. What actually determines how many mods there are is how easy it is to mod. Modders are usually just players who begin by tinkering with stuff and eventually release something (myself included). If the game is too obtuse or has too few tools, people simply won't mod it. Mount and Blade was actually like this at the start.

The problem right now is that the code base is basically a giant mess, basic features like adding sounds are undocumented, and even the developers themselves are frustrated trying to work with it. The only "active" overhaul mods around right now are hype trains led by people who clearly aren't doing anything other than psyching people up and spitballing ideas (like the napoleonic one), or semidormant projects like the LOTR one.

To be brutally honest, I don't think any worthwhile overhaul mods will ever happen at this rate. And it's not just due to bannerlord:
1. Mods are far harder to make than back in 2010 due to how much less intuitive modern games like Bannerlord are.
2. The developers don't seem to be working towards making the system easier to use.
3. Most people with the skill to mod a game nowadays are people in their 20s and 30s (often gamedev students or semiprofessional artists) rather than bullied children and divorced boomers like back in the 2000s, meaning they have less free time on their hands. A modern mod is basically a professional venture, which leads to:
4. Lots of potential or former modders nowadays make their own games rather than going through the horror of editing an existing game (myself included)
 

Midnitewolf

Sergeant
Don't downplay native Warband. If native wasn't great on its own merits, few people would've been engaged enough to seek out mods in the first place, and even fewer would have committed to making those mods.

And you can't put all your hopes into Bannerlord's mod scene saving it. If they don't get the base game right, players will lose interest and the mod scene could dry right up before even getting a chance to flourish. I don't think a lot of people are interested in modding a game that's not already fun to begin with. I'm already starting to see a slowdown in the amount of new mods coming out each week compared to last year. Hopefully it picks up again when the game's farther along in development, but there's no guarantee that all these great mods will actually appear. It all depends on how good the native game turns out in the end.
Well like I said Warband was fun....good for 40-50 hours. I mean the vast majority of good games don't have much more than 40-50 hours of gameplay in them. I think Bannerlord Native is fun too and I played a good 40-50 hours of that before seeking out mods to carry the experience forward and even with the limited mods Bannerlord has going for it right now, my 40-50 hours is approaching 400 hours. That means that modding extended my gameplay loop already to 10x what it would have been.

As for Mods honestly I do feel that is where the game become really fun and gets all its longevity. As I just mentioned, 50 hours unmodded, 350 additional hours modded. If we can't put at least mod of our hope in mods, then this game is done for. I mean it has been nearly a year since EA released and there have been virtually no real changes or additions to the gameplay of Native. I honestly see no real different playing Native now than I did back in March 2020.

As far as the reason why their are less and less mods, I honestly feel it is due to the gaming being in early access. So many of the abandoned mod have creator statement saying that they got sick of having to keep updating their mods over and over due to the frequent patching and many of the mods got completely trashed by changes made to the core game. As Kentucky mentions above, most modder are doing it for fun and having to constantly fix mods or see all your efforts negated by developmental changes sap the will of modders to do anything. I also have to be wonder if release as a EA wasn't a horrible idea. EA or not, people jumped on this game day one and Modding began in earnest. Now a year later, I am sure a lot of people have a "been there, done that" attitude about the game, its old news. I am sure when the official release hits more interest will come back into the game but I have to wonder if Taleworlds didn't end up shooting their wad prematurely by even offering an EA when so much of the game is unfinished and broken. It might even already be to late to recover which is why I kind of hope Taleworlds just decides to finish up as a minimally viable product very soon.

I mean the game is fun as is even if so much is still broken. It is good enough that it is going to "hook" who it will hook so I am not sure another year trying to improve it is going to make a difference in the positive anyway. However, I am hoping at full release we will see the modders resurge into action and I have no doubt if they do, most of the things I find as issues in native will be fixed by modders and I will usually have multiple options on the best way to fix them.

Keep in mind that Warband, mostly due to the mods is still going strong and there are still people working on major mods for it despite Bannerlord being out. I can't help but think it Taleworlds gets the game stabilize and released and quits or at least reduces the frequency of patches to only a few times a year, that the modders will come back once they know that once they finish their mod, it is going to be useable and relevant for months at a time without requiring fixes, updates or total back the drawing board scraping of projects.
 

Midnitewolf

Sergeant
He was referring to Warband when he wrote that less than half the people who bought the game actually installed a mod.

edit: And Warband's sales had the same frontload that Bannerlord's did, as far as I can tell.
Lots of people missed out then. I honestly bought Warband based on the mod video I saw. When I looked at Warband on Steam, the graphics were pretty bad and I have to be honest and say I would never have bought Warband if I hadn't accidently seen a video showcasing a Mod using HQ textures and models. I did play native before I attempted to play that mod and playing native is what hooked me on the game enough to actually install the mod I had seen showcased. However, I honestly couldn't have played 2000 hours in Warband without mods.

In any case, after seeing such lack of progress in the last year on this game, I can't honestly believe that anything Taleworlds will do with Native could motivate me to continue to play this game without a strong modding community behind it. Either the modder come back and come hard or this game dies.
 

cadadr

Recruit
Exactly...no idea why ppl complain so much in a single player game..uhh cavalry is to strong...archers are to powerfull etc etc...just play the game and shut up lol..i feel sorry for the devs who listen to all this and try to keep everyone happy..this will ruin game..
Nobody forced them to EA and to open forums. If they wanted to get positive feedback only, they could stick to upvotes on Steam.
 
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