-
If you are reporting a bug, please head over to our Technical Support section for Bannerlord.
Why field battles turn into a 1:1 K/D slugfest
- Thread starter Demoulius
- Start date
Users who are viewing this thread
Unfortunately the AI still does not utilise kick/shield bash even with RBM.
That cannot be, because I played it today and I was shield bashed quite often. A bug, maybe?
Hmmm another mod possibly?
I don't recall ever being kicked/bashed and I don't see it mentioned in the mods features, but I could be wrong.
For combat, I only have RBM, but I guess something else could have done it? I'll check again, but I'm pretty certain of it because I got frustrated from it earlier today. Now I gotta know if I'm going crazy or not. lol
Well I'd like to know too as I'd love to see the AI using kicks and shield bashes in my game. So if you figure it out, hook me up!
Bluko88
Sergeant
Yep.
TW definitely needs to take notes on what has been done with RBM.
If nothing else they need to take to heart the adjusted armor and damage values. Makes combat far more enjoyable. (Item price scaling is far more sensible too, no 100K Denar Javelins.) While the A.I. blocking is nice it can be a little too good at times in RBM. Which can be frustrating for new players - probably needs to be an in-game auto-block feature anyways that blocks from the correct direction for newbies.
Philozoraptor
Sergeant
Shield bash / kick unfortunatelly cannot be activated right now, it has chance to happen written in code but it does ubsolutelly nothing. However 2H polearms / axes / maces will stagger enemies that block / parry - so they have "shock" effect.
One of the things that's bugged me the most about BL so far is the impossibility of doing military maneuvers the way they'd work IRL.
And - most annoyingly - BL mass combat isn't nearly as sophisticated as battles in Viking Conquest or WB Florin mod were.
Even with RBM (which is a must - THANKS @Philozoraptor !), battles on the open map are a mess and sieges are even worse.
I remember battles in Florin where Rhodoks would actually use historical pike formations (with the pikes pointed at different angles!) and Nords used historically-accurate testudo-like shield walls and Khergit horse archers caused havoc harassing blocks of infantry while zipping around the map too fast for heavy cav to catch them.
Vanilla BL can't even get spearmen to use spears.
Possibly insane opinion:
The entire unit system needs to be rebuilt from the ground up. Unspecialized line infantry units should have weapon loadouts distributed between say 70% 1H spears + shields on the front lines, 20% S&B/A&S behind them and 10% pikemen on the flanks. EVERY recruit unit should be armed at minimum with spear and shield, not farm implements.
Infantry should go into a shieldwall with actual ranks when approaching enemy archers, throw javelins/axes/whatever and then charge en masse.
That's how it worked for hundreds of years: shield wall + spear hedge + skirmish + charge. It's a simple formula and it made sense.
Charging light cavalry into any infantry formation head-on should be suicide. Spear brace should work with every spear, not just pikes (I haven't even seen the option with any spears I've used - I guess you have to use a pike?).
Even if ALL of the factions used the same tactic, it'd be an improvement over the current goofy situation where infantry - whether moving or charging - will always degenerate into a weird blob that can't be relied on to USE their spears or shields (despite their being the most important implements in any late-ancient or early-to-mid-medieval army).
And don't get me started on archers. In all of the battles I've commanded them in BL in the past year, it's an annoying chore to get them to properly use high ground or line up in a way so all of them will actually shoot or automatically move to a position where they can shoot the enemy without being blocked by their own infantry. I spend roughly 80% of my major battles doing nothing but babysitting archers.
Regardless of how right or wrong I may be about all this: the fact is that every historical military unit had their own formations and styles designed to highlight their strengths... this was demonstrated to awesome effect in WB mods. It's pretty sad that BL can't remotely approach that after a decade of development what volunteer modders accomplished in their free time.
And - most annoyingly - BL mass combat isn't nearly as sophisticated as battles in Viking Conquest or WB Florin mod were.
Even with RBM (which is a must - THANKS @Philozoraptor !), battles on the open map are a mess and sieges are even worse.
I remember battles in Florin where Rhodoks would actually use historical pike formations (with the pikes pointed at different angles!) and Nords used historically-accurate testudo-like shield walls and Khergit horse archers caused havoc harassing blocks of infantry while zipping around the map too fast for heavy cav to catch them.
Vanilla BL can't even get spearmen to use spears.
Possibly insane opinion:
The entire unit system needs to be rebuilt from the ground up. Unspecialized line infantry units should have weapon loadouts distributed between say 70% 1H spears + shields on the front lines, 20% S&B/A&S behind them and 10% pikemen on the flanks. EVERY recruit unit should be armed at minimum with spear and shield, not farm implements.
Infantry should go into a shieldwall with actual ranks when approaching enemy archers, throw javelins/axes/whatever and then charge en masse.
That's how it worked for hundreds of years: shield wall + spear hedge + skirmish + charge. It's a simple formula and it made sense.
Charging light cavalry into any infantry formation head-on should be suicide. Spear brace should work with every spear, not just pikes (I haven't even seen the option with any spears I've used - I guess you have to use a pike?).
Even if ALL of the factions used the same tactic, it'd be an improvement over the current goofy situation where infantry - whether moving or charging - will always degenerate into a weird blob that can't be relied on to USE their spears or shields (despite their being the most important implements in any late-ancient or early-to-mid-medieval army).
And don't get me started on archers. In all of the battles I've commanded them in BL in the past year, it's an annoying chore to get them to properly use high ground or line up in a way so all of them will actually shoot or automatically move to a position where they can shoot the enemy without being blocked by their own infantry. I spend roughly 80% of my major battles doing nothing but babysitting archers.
Regardless of how right or wrong I may be about all this: the fact is that every historical military unit had their own formations and styles designed to highlight their strengths... this was demonstrated to awesome effect in WB mods. It's pretty sad that BL can't remotely approach that after a decade of development what volunteer modders accomplished in their free time.
Last edited:
Philozoraptor
Sergeant
You are right pretty much about everything. Pike / spear bracing is multiplayer only right now, we are waiting for bracing to go into SP (it was actually promised) so we can see what we can actually do with inf vs cav once some proper mechanic is in the game.
Philozoraptor
Sergeant
I think its one of the 1.6.0 features. It was officialy promised for SP during 1.5.6 or 1.5.7 I think.
FYI: I just installed De Re Militari last night and it's 90% of what I asked for.
www.nexusmods.com
Also @Bloc 's Freelancer is a great complement to it.
The TW battle AI is still retarded and doesn't know how to actually USE units, but their composition - for the first time - actually makes sense.
De Re Militari
Troop Overhaul mod that aims to better reflect how medieval armies were often a mixture of levies, professional men-at-arms, and the noble elite, while aiming to ensure none of the three become obsole
www.nexusmods.com
Also @Bloc 's Freelancer is a great complement to it.
The TW battle AI is still retarded and doesn't know how to actually USE units, but their composition - for the first time - actually makes sense.
The problem with De Re Militari is, it's splitting the troop trees and also upgrade paths which against to Bannerlord's unit design.
From Freelancer perspective, I wouldn't say it's a great complement to it, because it's blocking your upgrade path and causing you to stuck in only a single path - which might not be what you are looking for.
I haven't checked how they handled the unit recruitment and stuff but I'm guessing it's causing somewhat issues on that front as well - unless he handled/patched that side exclusively. But I honestly don't see the benefit of separating troop trees in this game. If they were all starting from Peasant class ( as single root ) it would be better off in my opinion.
Well I'd like to know too as I'd love to see the AI using kicks and shield bashes in my game. So if you figure it out, hook me up!
I just tested it, though I guess it is pointless now that the mod author has confirmed it's not working right now. I must be actually insane! I swear I was being bashed...maybe I didn't have the mod selected at the launcher. I had just come back from perf_test, so it is possible. Good Lord. ? Well, regardless, the AI and combat is vastly improved with the mod, so at least there's that. lol
The reason you're seeing melee combat between bots turn into a mindless slugfest with no feinting or blocking is because the AI is really bad at managing distance and timing in a fight. The bots don't understand how long they should be "looking to block" before they counterattack and thus they just mindlessly left click.
In all fairness to Taleworlds, there are just so many variables at play when it comes to timing and attacks that I'd imagine it's very hard to properly implement a proficient but "fair" fight AI.
Honestly, Warband had the same issue, with melee between bots quickly devolving into two units just whaling away on each other with little mind to defense or feinting. That said, Warband succeeded where Bannerlord didn't in that weapon proficiency, Power Strike skill, and armor actually mattered and made a difference in the fight. Higher tier troops generally manhandled lower tiered units, thus making a plausible scaling and progression when it came to battles, army composition, and numbers.
In Bannerlord though, due to armor still not functioning properly, we sadly see the 1:1 K/D slugfest in melee -no matter what difference in tier, experience, stats, or equipment the combatants facing each other have. And until armor is fixed, melee fights will continue be an ugly jumbled mess.
In all fairness to Taleworlds, there are just so many variables at play when it comes to timing and attacks that I'd imagine it's very hard to properly implement a proficient but "fair" fight AI.
Honestly, Warband had the same issue, with melee between bots quickly devolving into two units just whaling away on each other with little mind to defense or feinting. That said, Warband succeeded where Bannerlord didn't in that weapon proficiency, Power Strike skill, and armor actually mattered and made a difference in the fight. Higher tier troops generally manhandled lower tiered units, thus making a plausible scaling and progression when it came to battles, army composition, and numbers.
In Bannerlord though, due to armor still not functioning properly, we sadly see the 1:1 K/D slugfest in melee -no matter what difference in tier, experience, stats, or equipment the combatants facing each other have. And until armor is fixed, melee fights will continue be an ugly jumbled mess.
It's been a while since I've done coding of any kind, but the design scheme that I've managed to glean kind of mystifies me.
It seems overwhelmingly ambitious (read: foolhardy) to simulate a battle with AI operating on a per-unit basis. If that's the baseline, then stutters/slowdowns/crashes/leaks would be an extremely predictable result.
Units should lock into formations and those formations should have unified AI - because that's how armies have always worked IRL: you grind down individuality and instill teamwork-oriented group discipline.
Each formation should have a discipline/morale stat that bleeds off during combat and causes individual units to revert to personal AI: either fleeing OR charging into disorganized melee like the moron AI does NOW. Maybe mitigating discipline loss could be an ACTUAL USE for the Leadership skill?
With formation-level AI, squads of infantry would actually have sensible shield coverage instead of the schizophrenic rave-dancing that they do now. Spearmen in a shieldwall and pikemen in a phalanx and cavalry in a wedge would actually fight in formation. Sergeants would automatically shift to circle, semi-circle or square formation when flanked by cavalry. Infantry charges wouldn't immediately collapse into retarded blobs.
And before anyone calls me crazy: this behavior (if not the design) existed in WB Viking Conquest!
BOTTOM LINE: I don't know what people are talking about when they call BL a sophisticated combat simulator. It's not. It's about half as sophisticated and realistic as Rome: Total War's combat sim... which came out in 2004 and uses much less resources (to be fair, combat is pure macro sim and doesn't simulate individual attacks).
WB/BL is a half-decent simulator of 1v1 or small-group combat. That's it. It's got directional attack and block plus feinting plus I guess kicks/bashes which the AI doesn't even do. Also different weapon/armor types, which I guess you can call a feature.
WB/BL combat is limited and unrealistic and counter-intuitive. Spears are extremely underpowered because IRL spear attacks are generally too fast to parry but the in-game engine slows them to a crawl. Light cavalry is relatively overpowered because of ineffective infantry. Archers are extremely overpowered in one aspect: pretty much no historical archer unit would fire volleys into disorganized melee because they'd literally shoot their own comrades in the back.
I mean... the individual combat system is limited enough that it's literally impossible to block with your shield and attack with your weapon at the same time. Enough said.
The author also has another mod he made first that follows the same principle of De Re Militari but keeps the vanilla one common and one noble tree, it's very good but sadly he hasn't updated it in a good while since releasing DRM
Levy Captain
CrazyElf
Sergeant
This could be resolved with difficulty settings where a more intelligent AI is enabled at higher levels.
Similar threads
