Why field battles turn into a 1:1 K/D slugfest

[Philozoraptor]

It's been a while since I've done coding of any kind, but the design scheme that I've managed to glean kind of mystifies me.

It seems overwhelmingly ambitious (read: foolhardy) to simulate a battle with AI operating on a per-unit basis. If that's the baseline, then stutters/slowdowns/crashes/leaks would be an extremely predictable result.

Units should lock into formations and those formations should have unified AI - because that's how armies have always worked IRL: you grind down individuality and instill teamwork-oriented group discipline.

Each formation should have a discipline/morale stat that bleeds off during combat and causes individual units to revert to personal AI: either fleeing OR charging into disorganized melee like the moron AI does NOW. Maybe mitigating discipline loss could be an ACTUAL USE for the Leadership skill?

With formation-level AI, squads of infantry would actually have sensible shield coverage instead of the schizophrenic rave-dancing that they do now. Spearmen in a shieldwall and pikemen in a phalanx and cavalry in a wedge would actually fight in formation. Sergeants would automatically shift to circle, semi-circle or square formation when flanked by cavalry. Infantry charges wouldn't immediately collapse into retarded blobs.

And before anyone calls me crazy: this behavior (if not the design) existed in WB Viking Conquest!

BOTTOM LINE: I don't know what people are talking about when they call BL a sophisticated combat simulator. It's not. It's about half as sophisticated and realistic as Rome: Total War's combat sim... which came out in 2004 and uses much less resources (to be fair, combat is pure macro sim and doesn't simulate individual attacks).

WB/BL is a half-decent simulator of 1v1 or small-group combat. That's it. It's got directional attack and block plus feinting plus I guess kicks/bashes which the AI doesn't even do. Also different weapon/armor types, which I guess you can call a feature.

WB/BL combat is limited and unrealistic and counter-intuitive. Spears are extremely underpowered because IRL spear attacks are generally too fast to parry but the in-game engine slows them to a crawl. Light cavalry is relatively overpowered because of ineffective infantry. Archers are extremely overpowered in one aspect: pretty much no historical archer unit would fire volleys into disorganized melee because they'd literally shoot their own comrades in the back.

I mean... the individual combat system is limited enough that it's literally impossible to block with your shield and attack with your weapon at the same time. Enough said.

Thats the problem of BL combat. Its hybrid of formation and duel system, both of these systems are only servicable at best (BL formation vs TW formation; BL duel vs Mordhau, Kingdom Come or Jedi academy dueling system) and sometimes clash with each other. For example solo or group of infantry spearmen vs single rider is terminator level efficient, but the moment it becomes cavalry formation vs infantry formation spearmen become much worse because instead of aiming generally in front of them / in the direction of cav formation and stabbing they are aiming at individual riders and waiting for the best possible moment trying to aim at individual riders. Same aplies to ranged units they fire slowly because they are sniping individuals instead of shooting at formation, even at distance, and if for whatever reason their desired target is not visible (for example when another enemy or ally is in front of him) they will become confused and not shoot until their target is vissible again or sometimes they might eventually switch target.

 

[bonerstorm]

This could be resolved with difficulty settings where a more intelligent AI is enabled at higher levels.

Unfortunately, there are indications that they're working on dumbing down the AI even more in order to accommodate a console release.

Thats the problem of BL combat. Its hybrid of formation and duel system, both of these systems are only servicable at best (BL formation vs TW formation; BL duel vs Mordhau, Kingdom Come or Jedi academy dueling system) and sometimes clash with each other. For example solo or group of infantry spearmen vs single rider is terminator level efficient, but the moment it becomes cavalry formation vs infantry formation spearmen become much worse because instead of aiming generally in front of them / in the direction of cav formation and stabbing they are aiming at individual riders and waiting for the best possible moment trying to aim at individual riders. Same aplies to ranged units they fire slowly because they are sniping individuals instead of shooting at formation, even at distance, and if for whatever reason their desired target is not visible (for example when another enemy or ally is in front of him) they will become confused and not shoot until their target is vissible again or sometimes they might eventually switch target.

YES!

They have an inadequate hybrid combat system that doesn't really work in squad combat or formation combat, then built one AI to govern both behaviors which inevitably breaks down as code for the one clashes with code for the other.

There are ways to make both the dueling and the formation combat more workable, but that doesn't seem to be anywhere on their radar - let alone developing completely separate AI to govern the entirely different ideal behavior between arena dueling vs. set-piece battles.

And - again - this behavior existed in mods for WB. Spearmen would march in formation and brace against cavalry (and could be automatically positioned at the flanks!). Archers would fire in volleys against masses of troops. Swordsmen would form multi-angle shieldwalls that point up to cover against plunging fire. Skirmishers would reliably toss their payloads and GTFO. The fact that BL is a step down from what existed years ago in volunteer mods is ridiculous.

ONE thing that would make combat infinitely more realistic (and spears much better!) is if your shield didn't magically turn into a useless hologram the minute you release the RMB and if spears/swords could be thrusted over/under/around one's own raised shield. Also spears should be less effective at parrying but also harder to parry against... actually the same thing should apply to all weapons with reach and 2H weapons should provide for brief stagger/knockback.

I'm definitely an amateur and not an expert, but my understanding is that weapons like greatswords and maces and the like were the province of the heavily-armored + trained + conditioned.... the only advantage of a greatsword over S&B being that nobody wants to get within your reach and the countermeasure to even longer enemy weapons would be enough armor to push in closer.

This is all a pipe dream, I guess. I might as well be wishing for other never-gonna-happens like using the X key to shift stances (something that would ALSO provide versatility for dueling/formations). Or even a button that allows your PC to clip into formations and follow automatically.

 

[Philozoraptor]

Unfortunately, there are indications that they're working on dumbing down the AI even more in order to accommodate a console release.

YES!

They have an inadequate hybrid combat system that doesn't really work in squad combat or formation combat, then built one AI to govern both behaviors which inevitably breaks down as code for the one clashes with code for the other.

There are ways to make both the dueling and the formation combat more workable, but that doesn't seem to be anywhere on their radar - let alone developing completely separate AI to govern the entirely different ideal behavior between arena dueling vs. set-piece battles.

And - again - this behavior existed in mods for WB. Spearmen would march in formation and brace against cavalry (and could be automatically positioned at the flanks!). Archers would fire in volleys against masses of troops. Swordsmen would form multi-angle shieldwalls that point up to cover against plunging fire. Skirmishers would reliably toss their payloads and GTFO. The fact that BL is a step down from what existed years ago in volunteer mods is ridiculous.

ONE thing that would make combat infinitely more realistic (and spears much better!) is if your shield didn't magically turn into a useless hologram the minute you release the RMB and if spears/swords could be thrusted over/under/around one's own raised shield. Also spears should be less effective at parrying but also harder to parry against... actually the same thing should apply to all weapons with reach and 2H weapons should provide for brief stagger/knockback.

I'm definitely an amateur and not an expert, but my understanding is that weapons like greatswords and maces and the like were the province of the heavily-armored + trained + conditioned.... the only advantage of a greatsword over S&B being that nobody wants to get within your reach and the countermeasure to even longer enemy weapons would be enough armor to push in closer.

This is all a pipe dream, I guess. I might as well be wishing for other never-gonna-happens like using the X key to shift stances (something that would ALSO provide versatility for dueling/formations). Or even a button that allows your PC to clip into formations and follow automatically.

We looked into the shield thing a lot, because it bothers us too and it is burried deep in the engine (out of our reach). Only thing we can do is to add armor to the hand and other body parts that presumable hold the shield, but that is not the same thing like having shield that will actually deflect swing from weapon.

Right now modding of individual AI bots is very limited, maybe some scripting is possible (with full access to the map) but things like shoot at the nearest target and if it is invisible for 1 second swtich to another closest target or something like that is impossible at the moment. Same goes for shoot at formation order, all of this is again in the engine and not visible to modders. What we can play with is behaviour of formations, developing new tactics etc. Obviously it is time consuming and it is one of the main things TW should be spending their time on not some silly 20 vs 20 fight in the keep. Main issue with tactics is that you either have to make few tactics that generally work in all situations (this includes behaviour of enemy player and formations he commands), which obviously makes them predictable etc. Or you can make specialized tactics but you need to make lot of them because they are going to work only in specific situation so you need specific tactic for specific situation.

We tried to show better offensive capabilities of 2H weapons by giving 2H maces, axes and polearms stagger ability when they hit parrying / blocking oponent. 2H swords we kept without this effect because the types of swords that are 2H in BL look like big bastards not like massive "two handers" and they already have damage and reach advantage over 1H swords while they keep their speed advantage over other 2H weapons so that should be good enough for them.