why do sturgias troops get worse amour at teir 3 comapred to teir 2

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HalfMetalJacket

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You mean tier 4 compared to tier 3? I'm pretty sure the Sturgian Spearman is the worst t4 unit the game thanks to the weak leather armour they run around in.
 

lukkyb

Regular
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yeah i mean teir 4 but its like they get nothing in returen its not like they ahve no amour but are really good fighters
 

lukkyb

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Someone from TW just hates Sturgia I guess :wink:
yeah when i belive that they should have some of the best inf in the game and replace the Noble line with really good inf (think huscarls from warband level of good) this could help them not get steam rolled by everyone
 

Apocal

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yeah when i belive that they should have some of the best inf in the game and replace the Noble line with really good inf (think huscarls from warband level of good) this could help them not get steam rolled by everyone
lol no it would not.

  1. Autocalc doesn't largely care and the Druzhniks getting a 20% boost (due to the mounted unit bonus) is more than any realistic combination of infantry equipment will ever overcome.
  2. Armor in BL never reaches the point of near-invulnerability it did in Warband, so well-armored infantry are still arrow-fodder to an extent.
  3. And even if they could hold on against arrows (they can't) they would still die to two or three tier 2 infantry in the melee.
 
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Silfir

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I looked at the two units in question - Spearman and Warrior, right?

Warrior has 35 Head, 24 Body, 4 Arm and 10 Leg Armor.
Spearman has 26 Head, 20 Body, 24 Arm and 23 Leg Armor.

That's a total of 73 vs. a total of 93. So in a sense the Spearman actually has better armor. (It's lighter as well, though the weight of the shield kind of cancels it out.) I'm sure that's how whoever designed the soldier loadouts looks at it. I haven't seen any statistics on whether Arm or Leg Armor is much worse than Body Armor or not.
 

AnandaShanti

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To answer OP, They try to over balance things in strange ways that look bad to the player. This unit has this and this so we take away this and this.... makes no sense to me but on paper I guess somebody thinks it's okay.

  1. Autocalc doesn't largely care and the Druzhniks getting a 20% boost (due to the mounted unit bonus) is more than any realistic combination of infantry equipment will ever overcome.
  2. Armor in BL never reaches the point of near-invulnerability it did in Warband, so well-armored infantry are still arrow-fodder to an extent.
  3. And even if they could hold on against arrows (they can't) they would still die to two or three tier 2 infantry in the melee.
I wish they would just adjust auto-calc for AI on a per faction basis for "world -balance". Strugian has trouble, Khuziats are bullies, give one more and the other less. Sturgian gets stuck, give them more free food and troops, Khuzaits over extend, give them less free food and troops. This is just general I don't look into the code or anything. Maybe they get a AC bonus against Khuzait but not other factions? Maybe if a faction gets to few feifs they get a AC buff to help them stay in the game?

I wish they could make armor for higher tier units more effective, particularly against lower tier enemies. It might be gamey but just a cheat buff so a t5-6 elite units can't be pelted to death by t2 archers or recruits would be fine for me. The armor is too thick, little baby troops can hurt them, the end. Of course I also want the AI to not zerg with low tier armies all the time...... but I guess it's gotta be 2030 game to actually make the AI go do what the player dies and fight bandits and spend time building up.

Anyways I want Housecarls too but with the caveat that armor and shield usage gets greatly enhanced (or cheated as described). I've been trying to figure out if anyone is actually good at going up the ladder and my opinion is still nobody. Nobody can go up the ladder, everyone retreat, I got this.
 
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Autocalc doesn't largely care and the Druzhniks getting a 20% boost (due to the mounted unit bonus) is more than any realistic combination of infantry equipment will ever overcome.
True, the current (1.4.3) auto calculation only uses a units level to determine it's power, equipment/skills do not matter at all in simulation.

What is your source on the 20% boost for cavalry? I just checked the dlls (iirc this is true for 1.4.2 as well) and there should be no difference at all if a unit is mounted or not yet I see people claim this often.

I wish they could make armor for higher tier units more effective, particularly against lower tier enemies. It might be gamey but just a cheat buff so a t5-6 elite units can't be pelted to death by t2 archers or recruits would be fine for me. The armor is too thick, little baby troops can hurt them, the end. Of course I also want the AI to not zerg with low tier armies all the time...... but I guess it's gotta be 2030 game to actually make the AI go do what the player dies and fight bandits and spend time building up.
If you mean in auto calc, armor does not matter at all, it has no effect. A mod could of course change auto calc and make tiers only wound if there is too much difference but that might have weird results, if only it were updated Light Combat Mod Collection (while the information on simulated battles is mostly correct it is outdated, the player is not treated differently, power is calculated differently and there is as far as I can tell no bonus for mounted units).
 

HalfMetalJacket

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I looked at the two units in question - Spearman and Warrior, right?

Warrior has 35 Head, 24 Body, 4 Arm and 10 Leg Armor.
Spearman has 26 Head, 20 Body, 24 Arm and 23 Leg Armor.

That's a total of 73 vs. a total of 93. So in a sense the Spearman actually has better armor. (It's lighter as well, though the weight of the shield kind of cancels it out.) I'm sure that's how whoever designed the soldier loadouts looks at it. I haven't seen any statistics on whether Arm or Leg Armor is much worse than Body Armor or not.
Nah, it straight up doesn't make sense. In melee, legs are almost never hit by anything so there's no real point to having particularly good leg armour.

Frankly, I don't think this is really deliberate at all. Sturgian Spearmen are straight up weak. They should at least be wearing those new lamellar vests that TW added into the game, not running around in leather shirts.

yeah when i belive that they should have some of the best inf in the game and replace the Noble line with really good inf (think huscarls from warband level of good) this could help them not get steam rolled by everyone
Like Apocal said, this won't help them at all. Druzhinniks however are absolutely worth your while, along with the horse raiders.
 

AnandaShanti

Knight at Arms
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If you mean in auto calc, armor does not matter at all, it has no effect.
No I meant for my personal use in that part. They can add whatever t7 infantry they want, if it dies in 2 hits it's still staying home in a garrison or in SW in front of companions.

I'm kinda glad it doesn't effect AC battle, that way hopefully they can deal with those problems separably.
 

Bannerman Man

C# Sleuth
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What is your source on the 20% boost for cavalry? I just checked the dlls (iirc this is true for 1.4.2 as well) and there should be no difference at all if a unit is mounted or not yet I see people claim this often.
The +20% mounted bonus is added in the GetPower method, which is called from SimulateHit. There's also a +50% boost for hero characters irrespective of being mounted.

 
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The +20% mounted bonus is added in the GetPower method, which is called from SimulateHit. There's also a +50% boost for hero characters irrespective of being mounted.
Ah, I was looking at GetPower from BasicCharacterObject, didn't realize it was being overriden, my mistake, thanks for clearing it up.
 

Apocal

Sergeant Knight
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Anyways I want Housecarls too but with the caveat that armor and shield usage gets greatly enhanced (or cheated as described). I've been trying to figure out if anyone is actually good at going up the ladder and my opinion is still nobody. Nobody can go up the ladder, everyone retreat, I got this.
Imperial cataphracts are the best at assaulting up the ladder, in my experience.

What is your source on the 20% boost for cavalry? I just checked the dlls (iirc this is true for 1.4.2 as well) and there should be no difference at all if a unit is mounted or not yet I see people claim this often.
edit: ninjaed by bannerman man while i was in DnSpy, what a time to be alive.
C#:
        // Token: 0x060008DF RID: 2271 RVA: 0x0002A0B4 File Offset: 0x000282B4
        public override float GetPower()
        {
            int num = this.IsHero ? (this.HeroObject.Level / 4 + 1) : this.Tier;
            return (float)((2 + num) * (10 + num)) * 0.02f * (this.IsHero ? 1.5f : (this.IsMounted ? 1.2f : 1f));
I believe this is the relevant code but I'm not really good with this so it might not be specifically correct. The autocalc only uses GetPower, it ignores the more detailed model.

Also, Mexxico said so:
Actually we did not made major buffs yet. Only fixed lords going bankrupt problem at 1.4 and decreased cavalry advantage to 20% from 30%. Sturgia probably needs more buffs. Please give some time for this, we will work on that.
 
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Slithy

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I haven't seen any statistics on whether Arm or Leg Armor is much worse than Body Armor or not.
So I have not looked into the related code or anything, but afaik the armor is effectively the same but localized to where the body gets hit. That would mean by raw area the body is likely the best and arm the worst, though having any weak points is a vulnerability.

Boots tend to matter more for mounted and helmets can be particularly important because of the headshot damage bonus.

Just having used Sturgia a decent amount, I can tell you that Spearman have pretty terrible survival and I would guess that is because they lose a chunk of headshot protection and a bit of protection on the largest target area. I doubt the gains in boots matter too much(not mounted) and gloves aren't terrible but still minimal area.
 

Blood Gryphon

Knight at Arms
WBVC
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Here is a table of their equipment numbers as of 1.4 (not updated for anything in 1.5). Personally i don't think leg armor matters at all for the sturgians. The Spearmens big boost in armor is in their boots and arms, but as you can see they lose out on head/chest. In most fights the infantry get in they are getting hit in either the head or shoulders from overhead swings often due to the proximity of formations. It hurts to see spearman and ulfhednar having less head/body armor then their predecessors.

TroopsTierHEADBODYARMSLEGSTotal Head/BodyTotal Head/Body/ArmsTotal
Sturgian recruits
1​
11​
4​
1​
15​
15​
16​
31​
Sturgian warrior
2​
11​
7​
9​
16​
18​
27​
43​
Sturgian soldier
3​
35​
24​
4​
14​
59​
63​
77​
Sturgian spearman
4
26
20
24
29
46
70
99
Sturgian Beserker
4​
35​
35​
20​
35​
70​
90​
125​
Sturgian ulfhednar
5
16
48
20
35
64
84
119
Sturgian shock
5​
45​
48​
25​
33​
93​
118​
151​
Sturgian veteran
5​
50​
64​
30​
31​
114​
144​
175​