Why are the nordic monarchy's heavy horses so weak?

[chantrain]

here's what i propose. double their horse speed. they barely move on the map. Give thanes the double handed axes and weapons they get now but the jarls should get single handed axes and shields. the shields should make them more durable and the increased horse speed should at  least put them on the level of varangian praetorians and kataphraktoi in terms of deadliness..

Nords need a little love, their valkyrie queens are good (even great) light cavalry but their heavy cavalry is seriously lacking.

 

[Mini Marine]

I'm pretty sure the lack of heavy cavalry is part of the Nord experience.

 

[chantrain]

they dont lack heavy cavalry, they have jarls and thanes, they just kinda suck in comparison to other heavy cavalry.

nords need a little love, they can still have the worst cavalry in terms of skill but dont make them so useless by nerfing their horse speed so much and not giving any of them shields.

also, why dont the ivory guard have gloves? none of them do.

 

[DamienZharkoff]

they dont lack heavy cavalry, they have jarls and thanes, they just kinda suck in comparison to other heavy cavalry.

nords need a little love, they can still have the worst cavalry in terms of skill but dont make them so useless by nerfing their horse speed so much and not giving any of them shields.

also, why dont the ivory guard have gloves? none of them do.

Same with "Why don't sword sisters and mistress's, as well as lady knights all of helms? This is a problem from native though where half the female units come helmless (Non-factional)

 

[noosers]

If you spend half your weeks wages on a visit at the hairstylist you wont blast that fortune for a helmet, right? Means if they die they´re at least cute. Unless my game buggers up and they dont have hair at all but are bald - and that´s got nothing to do with my style of command at all ;P

As for nord cav goes, yup. Their horses suck severly. However afoot Thanes and Jarls are a pain in the a$$ so just let them dismount and mince your opponent.

 

[tls5669]

Their Valk troop line is just as fast as Iam on horseback.

I do think the nords should have the fastest soldiers in the game when therye on foot, give all of them like 15 athletics.

 

[DamienZharkoff]

right now, 8 athletics and I am running alongside a Jarl on horseback. They need a horse speed boost.

 

[noosers]

Indeed, the Jarls horses are a bit cheesy. Having a lookover and editing them for the next release may be an improvement and turn them into something useful instead of the sitting ducks they are right now. Jarls and Thanes are really dangerous once afoot - but that hardly never occurs except in sieges due to the durability of their Chargers. And mounted they are easily dispatached by the Player - all you need a is a decent Lance and you can ride circles around them and poke them to hell.

So their horses having a bit less armor, perhaps a bit under warhorse/charger armor class and speed the same ranging from 35-38 for warhorse/charger.

It was nice if you could either improve their Warhorses/Chargers or get rid of them completely and give them standard farm or saddle horses.

 

[Lord Corentin]

The Thanes and Jarls have horses to give the Nords a decent speed boost on the map... They're not supposed to be efficient fighters on horseback and their horses aren't supposed to help them in combat either. Just order them to dismount before letting them have a chance to get ahead with their lightning-fast reflexes and mounts.

 

[XWolfGhost]

I remember using a Nord Charger for some time, was impossible to give any orders to my troops cause the enemy was already right in front by the time I moved a few meters  The next kingdom I am going to try out is Nord, so hopefully their troops make up for the lack of half decent horses, if they do then I wouldn't really care about the fact their horse types suck. It all levels out.

 

[noosers]

The Thanes and Jarls have horses to give the Nords a decent speed boost on the map... They're not supposed to be efficient fighters on horseback and their horses aren't supposed to help them in combat either. Just order them to dismount before letting them have a chance to get ahead with their lightning-fast reflexes and mounts.

The main problem there is that your mercenary cavalry or your mounted companions will dismount as well since you cant order certain special troopers alone but a whole group. Furthermore I think the Jarls and Thanes current horses are more a hindrance than improvement - they are top fighters but better afoot than mounted. Which is one of the reasones why I´d give them lighter but faster horses with a speed in between farm horse but under war horse. They will still have their horse for overall speed but be able to do something in an open field battle and have a legitimate chance to actually kill enemy cavalry and perhaps a chance to use their lances in a couched attack.

Apart from that it doesnt make much sense having nord heavy cavalry with such a slow mounts - a bit slower, yes. A bit less armored, yes. A bit less hitpoints yes. But right now its just a too slow - at least from my point of view. I havent played nord yet but I reckon most Nord players will focus on the female troop tree or Lady Knights instead of employing the Male Nord Cavalry units.

 

[webspinnre]

I could see an argument for upping their speed into the high 20s maybe, but the entire point is that the Nords aren't any good at riding horses. I'd like it if the Nords had different looking horses, just so they could be distinguished from the warhorse and chargers, but this would require importing other images, which I know Merc hasnt been doing recently (I think due to time?).

 

[DamienZharkoff]

Actually, give em hunters that have less then normal health so the nordic cavalry gets dismounted quickly and I'd be happy.

 

[sher]

Funny. It seems that nobody (didn't count authors and silent people ) understands the key idea of noncharging cavalry. Jarls are made not to charge but to stop charging cavalry, tie it. They have long antishield axes, shields, one-handed weapons, lances, throwing spears and "horses". They are tough and very well armored (unlike other nord troops). They move slow with intention - not to separate from the infantry. Nord infantry has not heavy armor but has excellent offensive capabilities - it needs shelter. A crowd of Jarls provides excellent shelter - they stop charges with their horses, smash enemy shileds with their axes, take heavy punisment with their armor and shields, trample footmen - it distracts them. And somewhere in this crowd there are those nord berserkers and other whacking people - when Jarl/Thane gets his horse killed, he starts to chop everything (tied cavalry ) with his Long Axe as footman.

"Jarls + infantry" combination has only one problem left - enemy shooters, enemy cavalry is no issue for nords anymore. Jarls/Thanes - are the key unit for the nords in this mod, imho.

Very intersting idea that makes this faction very fun to play. Unlike factions with heavy cavalry that is fun to fight AGAINST but it's boring to have massive heavy cavalry army that is good all-around and simply destroys anything - you'll need only Lady Knights for this crap.

Last day I have saved game before cool battle - much much cooler than you can get with Quick Battle in game's Main Menu. Very intense and emotional it is.
Me (Charger, Balanced Jousting Lance, Balanced Heavy Longsword, 2 Kite Shileds),
10 advanced companions (Heavy Charger, Advanced (introduced in this mod weapons) One-Handed/Two-Handed Sword, Long Bow with Ivory Arrows, Kite Shiled)
30 Jarls,
20 Thanes,
10-15 weak nord units
(74 total)

against Vaegir's leader advanced warparty (~270 men) with Ivory Archers, Berserkers, Vaegir's heavy cavalry - all of their elite units in vast numbers. They're real butchers if you'll play by their rules - Berserkers and Ivory Archers (not counting heavy cavalry) are the real killing machines if you'll give them freedom to fight as they like - I was surprised. But you can break their rules (tie shooters and trample berserkers) and win the battle with minor casualties - a hard earned victory and very satisfactory one

 

[noosers]

See, the problem there is that a Thane or Jarl dismounted is a way better at stopping cavalry than mounted. Because he will use his two handed weapon and slice anything into pieces or brace his spear and eat mounts alive. On their horses, however, they are tinned meat poking around desperately with their spears hiding behind their shields most of the times while they get swarmed and killed by cavalry or infantry because they get killed ON their heavy horse and not dehorsed (where they could defend themselves a bit better). And dont forget most of the damage done against heavy armoured opponents or infantry is determined by speed as is charging damage. Those 20ish speed Nord Heavy Horses are best culled and meat loafed.

Plus most of the people here arent using them but viewing them from the opposite point - they get used against them. You can use them as described, the AI cant. They would be a lot more fearsome however, if they were a bit better (faster) mounted. Right now, 20 Jarls are just an annoyance but if they had better horses they would become a problem real fast cutting through your lines - they are wasting a great deal of potenial damage AGAINST the player on that horses.

 

[SanDiego]

Nordic cavalry isn't strong, but it's not intended to be strong. It's not true that jarls and thanes will break cavalry charge. I once charged nordic lord with about 60 heavy cavalry (Knight commanders mostly, some crusaders and knight lords, some mercenary knights and lady knights). There were two separate groups - one cavalry and archers guarded by infantry. I charged headlong into cavalry and turned it into large shipment of luncheon meat. Nordic cavalry hardly can stand toe to toe to any other, but can be a pain in the ass, when they harass you archers. I remember playing an archer character with Vaegirs. I was able to pwn almost anything, but jarls and thanes gave me trouble, because they were just a bit faster than my soldiers on foot and they were quite durable. So - harassin archers: yes. Protecting against cavalry charge: no.

 

[The Mercenary]

Nordic Horses will be changed.

 

[sher]

This mod is not about balance right now - it is about fun and "flavor". With 60 heavy cavalry you can anihilate anything - it proves nothing, it was made that way - to dominate the field of combat. Dismounted heavy knight can be stopped only with missile weapon or several other strong men, when quantity of fighting knights exceeds some level there is no way (space, time) to beat them - they even butcher khergits with ease! Spears? Ok, but knight do not need horse to use his sword to kill people and he's already there to slash - trampling is not his only power. Mounted noncharging knight < dismounted knight.

Imagine running nord infantry and charging cavalry to trample them - they will be smashed. Imagine running nord infantry and jarls slightly ahead of them? Charge will be broken and enemy cavalry will be tied in large rotating crowd. Enemy shooters is too far away yet but your berserkers are not - they marching and choping tied enemy cavalry, then this crowd will move to smash enemy infantry and shooters.

Dismounted Jarl is a capable fighter, but there is Berserker already. And Berserker is not able to trample infantry do distract it. You cannot do trample damage or charge with Nord Chargers but you can hamper enemy functionality with these ponies and let your lightlly armored troops to finish your foes. Nord infantry is too vulnerable to do it alone. Jarls are not about damage dealing when they are mounted. Did you ever been in the Jarls wirlwind as footman? It's a hell and these guys are the pain in the ass. They are killable but it takes Time - and that is why they are there.

Player can beat AI Nord, as any AI. But try to beat "Jarls + infantry" only with your infantry, then try to beat "infantry" to see the difference.

In battle mentioned above I had only Jarls as soldiers, my companions did not do much damage. Of course, without my actions my army was ripped apart surprisingly fast, but my task was only to suppress enemy shooters-berserkers activity (with trampling many of them in the process) - Jarls destroyed enemy army. Even without nord infantry. It's not a small feat for such cheap unit, I think. Oh, and I've lost only 5 of them killed (although not in the first replay) Huscarls in this mode dies like flies, by the way.

 

[The Mercenary]

I'm working on balancing it.

Oh, and on the topic of knights, turns out the Crusaders and such didn't have athletics to begin with....yup. I ended up just nerfing their agility.

 

[sher]

Nordic Horses will be changed.

Another Armored Knight Terminator Who Can Beat Anything On The Field Or During The Siege?

In that case there will be only two playable factions: Rhodocks and Khergits (maybe). Without self-restrictions, I mean.