Why are spears so limited compared to other weapons?

Chaoslian

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Hello,

since i started to play multiplayer, i try to "git gudd" with spears. But to be honest, most of the time it feels like i have a lot more disadvantages, as with any other weapon.
I mostly talk about wielding the spear with 2 hands.
First of all: Why am i not able to attack to the left or the right? Only having 2 attack directions makes this weapon very predictable and easy to block.
My biggest issue with this is to fight against someone with a shield.
Correct me if i'm wrong, but if you block left with a shield, your left side, you bottom, and your top is covered. This makes it impossible, to attack a shield user with a spear, if he is not a complete moron. Even if you hit a clearly non covered part, it counts as blocked.
The shield user will just hold block, and facehug you. And there is nothing you can do against it. Kick/Bash will give you some space, but because you can't set a direct hit after that, there is nothing that stops the shield user from facehugging you again. This together with the fact, that you don't do any damage, if you oponent is not in the right distance, leaves you with no options anymore. If those hits would at least interrupt their attacks or push them back...
This is not just my perspective as a spear fighter. I also fight with shield and 1h often, and do this to spear users. Cause what are they gonna do?

Basicly i'm saying the spear has (in my opinion) to many downsides.

Spear vs Bow/Crossbow -> No shield, so you are breakfast
Spear vs. 2H -> You gain like 20cm range in exchange for much damage and the ability to attack from 2 sides. Also you have to mainain distance while you oponent has not.And it's way easier to land a swing, than a stab.
Spear vs Cav -> to get a horse to rear, the enemy has to be an idiot. Even if you do, Cav just shakes it of. If they get thrown of, they are so far away, that you will not be able to kill him, before he is ready to fight again. Also if Cav wields a spear too, they will outrange you.

Besides of that there is another thing that bugs me. I don't know what it is,but if you hold an attack, the release feels weird. It's like the character waits for some additional time before the release. Therefore it just feels unresponsive. It's just no natural movement, if you know what i mean.

Long story short: I think spears need some love. And i don't think, i'm alone with this, regarding how few spear fighters (without shield) i see.
 

shatti

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shield and spear is perfect for support and group fighting,
it's amazing.
-the problem comes in 2 situations:
1- 1v1: u can't drop ur shield and swing ur spear, it only thrusts so u r in a disadvantage against a decent opponent.
2-against cav: not very effective against cav, only few damage delivered even with perfect hits.

warspear was great in warband, few damage but it has the speed and the swings to confuse ur opponent and hit him in a skillful way
 
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Spears are okay I would say. You 100% MUST switch to a close-quarter weapon if your opponent gets close up - Aside from that, it's amazing, and one of the few weapons that can stop pesky horse spammers.
 

Zoonanay

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Throwing weapons I feel are overshadowing spears, making them seem ever weaker than they may be. In a groupfight a throwing weapon can reach further, switch faster, and do more damage. Against cavalry it's more likely to kill the horse. Against archers or unshielded opponents they have clear advantages.

I guess you don't run out of spears but recovering javelin's isn't too difficult. Thrown needs to be weaker or spears need something unique to give them a purpose, or maybe both.

I think Pikes are underrated tho, hits hard and is long enough to give you weapon switching time as long as you're watchful.
 

shatti

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You 100% MUST switch to a close-quarter weapon if your opponent gets close
Thats view is what the devs and many people here doesn't see.

the MUST thing should be nerved in bannerlord.
we know that we can switch
but we don't want, we want to play with our style, with a spear.
i want to be a spear veteran in this game, i want to have a great feints with it.
i want to ENJOY using it
warband did have that, it felt amazing.

@
Klebari
@
Callum

Menavlion is only in 1 faction,
it's slow it doesn't feel like a spear
and can't be used with shield in "MP"
 

Chaoslian

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shield and spear is perfect for support and group fighting,
it's amazing.
-the problem comes in 2 situations:
1- 1v1: u can't drop ur shield and swing ur spear, it only thrusts so u r in a disadvantage against a decent opponent.
2-against cav: not very effective against cav, only few damage delivered even with perfect hits.

warspear was great in warband, few damage but it has the speed and the swings to confuse ur opponent and hit him in a skillful way
Yeah, you're right, shield and spear can be amazing. But as you can read, i talk about grabbing a spear with 2H.
 

Chaoslian

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Thats view is what the devs and many people here doesn't see.

the MUST thing should be nerved in bannerlord.
we know that we can switch
but we don't want, we want to play with our style, with a spear.
i want to be a spear veteran in this game, i want to have a great feints with it.
i want to ENJOY using it
warband did have that, it felt amazing.

@
Klebari
@
Callum

Menavlion is only in 1 faction,
it's slow it doesn't feel like a spear
and can't be used with shield in "MP"
+1

I would be okay with this, if we were able to hold them of, or at least stab for open parts.
Maybe something like
- increase the attack speed (maybe a bit more)
- lower the damage

So you have to hit your enemy multiple times, but you are able to set 3-4 hits, before the enemy can close this gap. If the enemy closed that gap, you would be ****ed.

A spear is a primary weapon. Not a sidearm.
 

Zydrate

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Thats view is what the devs and many people here doesn't see.

the MUST thing should be nerved in bannerlord.
we know that we can switch
but we don't want, we want to play with our style, with a spear.
i want to be a spear veteran in this game, i want to have a great feints with it.
i want to ENJOY using it
warband did have that, it felt amazing.

@
Klebari
@
Callum

Menavlion is only in 1 faction,
it's slow it doesn't feel like a spear
and can't be used with shield in "MP"
We desperately need halberds and billhooks. Goddammit the timeline is already confusing beyond recognition just give us some mid-later medieval ARMS AND ARMOUR TW COME ON
 

Folca

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Correct me if i'm wrong, but if you block left with a shield, your left side, you bottom, and your top is covered. This makes it impossible, to attack a shield user with a spear, if he is not a complete moron.
No and yes. Shields do not cover you completely. Well placed attacks and especially arrows can still catch you if your directional block is poor. Spears however have a very hard time taking advantage of this. You can sometimes get around a low block with an upper attack while jumping, but that's about it. Makes sense to me though, IRL if I have a shield I see no way how you're gonna stab me with a spear.

The shield user will just hold block, and facehug you. And there is nothing you can do against it. Kick/Bash will give you some space, but because you can't set a direct hit after that, there is nothing that stops the shield user from facehugging you again.
Well yes, but this once again makes a lot of sense to me. Melee infantry counters spear infantry. It's been that way and unless the laws of physics change, it'll stay that way

Spear vs Bow/Crossbow -> No shield, so you are breakfast
Unless it's a pike, you can wield spears while holding a shield. Regardless, I don't see why spears should be effective vs. archers.

Spear vs Cav -> to get a horse to rear, the enemy has to be an idiot. Even if you do, Cav just shakes it of. If they get thrown of, they are so far away, that you will not be able to kill him, before he is ready to fight again.
Well a lot of players must be idiots then. Sometimes you get caught by surprise and sometimes you have no way to go. Getting reared happens to good players too. Lying in wait at chokepoints is an excellent way to make that happen. If people get thrown off their horse they usually land smack in the middle of enemy lines, where everyone and their mother swarms them. Playing mostly Siege and TDM, survival once you get knocked off is rare.

Also if Cav wields a spear too, they will outrange you.
This entirely depends on the type of spear you're using and your position. Attacking from their left hand side will decrease their effective range and flexibility. Furthermore, nothing outranges a pike. Those things are absolute cavalry killers, they don't stand a chance against it.


Long story short: I think spears need some love. And i don't think, i'm alone with this, regarding how few spear fighters (without shield) i see.
Spears aren't the same weapon they were in Warband and tbh, I kind of like it. They're primarily support weapons which should be used in conjunction with other weapons and teammates. You know how your teammates tend to block all your attacks when you're attacking an outnumbered enemy? How everyone gets tangled up, often giving the outnumbered enemy an advantage? That's where spears come in very handy and avoid needless clutter.
When defending chokepoints or battling in large groups, spears also enable far more players' effective contact with the enemy. They're not meant for lone wolves or 1v1 duels but as a very situational and strategic option.

The fact that they're secondary weapons is further signified by all infantry classes only having the options of spears in the secondary equipment slot. The exception is the Menavlion of course, but I'm sure you can agree that's a spear on a different level altogether. Menavlions are your Warband spears of old.
 
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Zydrate

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No and yes. Shields do not cover you completely. Well placed attacks and especially arrows can still catch you if your directional block is poor. Spears however have a very hard time taking advantage of this. You can sometimes get around a low block with an upper attack while jumping, but that's about it. Makes sense to me though, IRL if I have a shield I see no way how you're gonna stab me with a spear.
Like this.
And no shields do block more than they look like they should, that's because hitboxes are ****ed but that's another larger issue.


Well yes, but this once again makes a lot of sense to me. Melee infantry counters spear infantry. It's been that way and unless the laws of physics change, it'll stay that way
What kinda logic is that, played too much Total War? Pretty much every Spearmen would have a sidearm, which would be a sword, a mace or an axe or whatever. They're melee infantry as soon as they drop their spears and unsheathe their sidearms. Pretty much every infantry used some sort of Polearm as their primary weapon, including halberds, billhooks, poleaxes and indeed spears and pikes. Only hope of you getting close to a pike / spear wall is weakening the line with javelins and have massive shields like the scutum which in a group formation leave very few weak spots, but even then the enemy's spear, multiple spears even, are going to be poking your shield away so you have to push, push even slightly too much and you're gonna be exposing yourself to eight long sharp sticks and that's never fun.

Furthermore, nothing outranges a pike. Those things are absolute cavalry killers, they don't stand a chance against it.
Pikes in Bannerlord are twice or even thrice as short than they should be irl, which doesn't help with anything.


When defending chokepoints or battling in large groups, spears also enable far more players' effective contact with the enemy. They're not meant for lone wolves or 1v1 duels but as a very situational and strategic option.
They're not. They wouldn't be so dominant and prevalent in the battlefield if they weren't highly versatile and required life-long training. They're long sticks, with pointy metal ends, you poke people with it. Even in duels, no shield is going to cover your whole body, even if it does protect your front will be blinded and the Spearman can sidestep and stab you in the side. Now try sidestepping one meter in Bannerlord.

The fact that they're secondary weapons is further signified by all infantry classes only having the options of spears in the secondary equipment slot.
And that's the exact same bs we're talking about.
 

Chaoslian

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@Zydrate
I was about to post the same video, as soon as i read Folca's comment^^


@Folca
Don't get me wrong. I don't have a problem, with shield and sword having an advantage over spear, even if this is not so easy in real life.

But as you can see in the video postet by Zydrate, a spearman would sting for the legs. You can do this here too, but therefore, the shield user has to block his top side. But there is no need for them to do so, because you can block both attack directions from a spear, with a left or right block.

Oh and i think you misunderstood me with the archers part. I shouldn't be good against them, if i don't have a shield. They should destroy me! It was more to show, that you don't have an advantage over any other weapon. Or at least just in very specific situations.

And about sending Cav to friendly lines:
Yes this happens alot, but the problem with this is, that i don't even get an assist for that. I wouldn't mind that, but because of this class system, i need to earn money somehow, to be able to purchase better armor (which you need with a 2H spear). Even if i send 10 riders to the ground, i don't get an reward for that. Though i did the main part of the kill.
 
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Chaoslian

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Oh and another thing. Whats the problem with friendly hitboxes? I can't count how often i died, because my spear got stuck, because someone stand to the left, right or behind of me? Also often i can clearly see, that i would have stabbed around an friendly enemy, but the spear still gets stuck.
If you are supposed to use the spear as support weapon, you need the ability to stab precisly. Currently it's more luck, than anything other
 

Folca

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That video proves my point though? If a shielded man knows what he's doing the spearman doesn't stand a chance. Commentator even says so ''That's how to do it, get in there and don't stop, no chance.'' The shielded infantry losing to the spearman are making various errors, such as keeping their distance, blinding themselves and exposing themselves in attempts to parry the spear. In the instances where the spearman loses however, there's very little he could've done otherwise.

I'll grant you, it's not as black and white as I envisioned: a spear most certainly can get past a shield. I'm proven wrong in that respect. Yet if I had to choose between a (shielded) sword or spear, I'd still take the sword any day on the basis of that video.

a spearman would sting for the legs. You can do this here too, but therefore, the shield user has to block his top side. But there is no need for them to do so, because you can block both attack directions from a spear, with a left or right block.
I can see now why this is a very fair point though.

What kinda logic is that, played too much Total War? Pretty much every Spearmen would have a sidearm, which would be a sword, a mace or an axe or whatever. They're melee infantry as soon as they drop their spears and unsheathe their sidearms.
Yes and once again you're sort of proving my point, no? Spear infantry (i.e. people fighting with a spear and not a sword/axe/mace/...) don't stand a chance once melee infantry get in there, which is why they they would swap weapons to even the odds.

Only hope of you getting close to a pike / spear wall is weakening the line with javelins and have massive shields like the scutum which in a group formation leave very few weak spots, but even then the enemy's spear, multiple spears even, are going to be poking your shield away so you have to push, push even slightly too much and you're gonna be exposing yourself to eight long sharp sticks and that's never fun.
That (bolded) reminds me that's exactly how the Romans broke the Macedonian phalanx. Nevertheless, I won't even try to argue the ruthless effectiveness of spears/pikes when used in formation, as a single unit. However, we're talking spear combat on a different level here: as a cohesive unit and not as a lone wolf. This kind of army cohesiveness and discipline just isn't present in Bannerlord and that's something that goes far beyond the way spears themselves work.

Pikes in Bannerlord are twice or even thrice as short than they should be irl, which doesn't help with anything.
That may be, but they still perform a very effective role vs. cavalry, so I'm not sure what you're getting at here.

Even in duels, no shield is going to cover your whole body, even if it does protect your front will be blinded and the Spearman can sidestep and stab you in the side. Now try sidestepping one meter in Bannerlord.
Sidestepping goes both ways though. It's effective for and against spear wielders.

And that's the exact same bs we're talking about.
You were accusing me of having too much of a Total War mindset, yet aren't you yourself guilty of the same charge? Spears, pikes and the like are primary weapons when used in large groups, in cohesive formations which effectively function as a single unit. Strip the spear of that united stance and divided it shall fall. Such single unit cohesiveness is not a thing in Bannerlord multiplayer. You'll get closer with organized clan fights sure, but even then it pales in comparison with the real thing. As I've said previously, this is something that goes far beyond the scope of spear mechanics by themselves and even touches the core mechanics of the game.

And about sending Cav to friendly lines:
Yes this happens alot, but the problem with this is, that i don't even get an assist for that. I wouldn't mind that, but because of this class system, i need to earn money somehow, to be able to purchase better armor (which you need with a 2H spear). Even if i send 10 riders to the ground, i don't get an reward for that. Though i did the main part of the kill.
Well you get the reward of seeing that pesky cavalry get mobbed to death. You might not get explicit credit for it but you know you are the one who made that happen. In all seriousness, I get where you're coming from and perhaps you should get an assist for horse damage if the rider dies within a given timeframe. That's another discussion beyond spear mechanics themselves though.
 

Folca

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Oh and another thing. Whats the problem with friendly hitboxes? I can't count how often i died, because my spear got stuck, because someone stand to the left, right or behind of me? Also often i can clearly see, that i would have stabbed around an friendly enemy, but the spear still gets stuck.
If you are supposed to use the spear as support weapon, you need the ability to stab precisly. Currently it's more luck, than anything other
Spears can still get stuck on hitboxes, but they, at least in my experience, have a much easier time than other weapons in that regard. What I do find annoying is that it's nigh impossible to rear a horse with a pike if it's crowded around you. It's increased length, which is otherwise very nice vs. cavalry, makes it very prone to get stuck on teammates.

I do agree hitboxes in general are an issue though, one that's been brought up a lot.
 
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I feel Spears are a bit weak atm, no matter whether for infantry or cavalry (who picks spears over lances?). They definitely need to be buffed but I don’t think they should be an effective duelling weapon or be very effective in close combat, unless used as a group. Swords should still remain as the primary melee engagement tool. Even spears in warband werent really that viable against swords. I know spears were the master weapon in history but this shouldn’t happen in the game
 
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Chaoslian

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That video proves my point though? If a shielded man knows what he's doing the spearman doesn't stand a chance. Commentator even says so ''That's how to do it, get in there and don't stop, no chance.'' The shielded infantry losing to the spearman are making various errors, such as keeping their distance, blinding themselves and exposing themselves in attempts to parry the spear. In the instances where the spearman loses however, there's very little he could've done otherwise.
I currently cannot take a look, which of the both videos he posted (there is a short and a long version) but at the end of the long version he says, that barely anyone in this video has used a spear before,and none of them ever did fight with spear and shield, while everyone of the others were trained with their weapons.
And even then, they were successful.Now imagine what happens if they are trained with this weapon.
I was able to take lessons in medival weapons in real life for nearly a year. I can tell you, that a spear is a horrible weapon to fight against. It's hard to read, its incredible fast, and if you dont have a shield, your basicly ****ed.
Yeah, if you get close with a shield, you have a heavy advantage against spears. But you have to earn it.

Yes, spears can't be implemented like in real life, cause nobody would want to fight them, and it would be very frustrating to fight against a spearman.

But all this disadvantages together are just a bit to much. And we need a way to attack shield users.
 

Zydrate

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That video proves my point though?
It doesn't.
Yes and once again you're sort of proving my point, no? Spear infantry (i.e. people fighting with a spear and not a sword/axe/mace/...) don't stand a chance once melee infantry get in there, which is why they they would swap weapons to even the odds.
My point was that spearmen can become melee infantry so the disctinction is meaningless for the most part.
That (bolded) reminds me that's exactly how the Romans broke the Macedonian phalanx. Nevertheless, I won't even try to argue the ruthless effectiveness of spears/pikes when used in formation, as a single unit. However, we're talking spear combat on a different level here: as a cohesive unit and not as a lone wolf. This kind of army cohesiveness and discipline just isn't present in Bannerlord and that's something that goes far beyond the way spears themselves work.
The phalanx was outmaneuvered and outflanked, shields only slowed the process of legions being poked to death.
That may be, but they still perform a very effective role vs. cavalry, so I'm not sure what you're getting at here.
Meaning even some cavalry have longer polearms than "pikemen", not to mention their mobility and timing advantages. So if a horse mindlessly chaarging into you maybe it is effective (not necessarily for the AI, AI has no clue how to use polearms), but if the horseman has brains he won't expose the horse's head and utilize his advantage in reach.
Sidestepping goes both ways though. It's effective for and against spear wielders.
My point is you can't sidestep in Bannerlord.
You were accusing me of having too much of a Total War mindset, yet aren't you yourself guilty of the same charge? Spears, pikes and the like are primary weapons when used in large groups, in cohesive formations which effectively function as a single unit. Strip the spear of that united stance and divided it shall fall. Such single unit cohesiveness is not a thing in Bannerlord multiplayer. You'll get closer with organized clan fights sure, but even then it pales in comparison with the real thing. As I've said previously, this is something that goes far beyond the scope of spear mechanics by themselves and even touches the core mechanics of the game.
What?
Pikes may be too long for duels but spears are definitely as effective in duels, especially other polearms, while being a group fighting weapon are also incredibly versatile in duels, halberds and billhooks and etc.
 

GEO_MihaWk.

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Hello,

since i started to play multiplayer, i try to "git gudd" with spears. But to be honest, most of the time it feels like i have a lot more disadvantages, as with any other weapon.
I mostly talk about wielding the spear with 2 hands.
First of all: Why am i not able to attack to the left or the right? Only having 2 attack directions makes this weapon very predictable and easy to block.
My biggest issue with this is to fight against someone with a shield.
Correct me if i'm wrong, but if you block left with a shield, your left side, you bottom, and your top is covered. This makes it impossible, to attack a shield user with a spear, if he is not a complete moron. Even if you hit a clearly non covered part, it counts as blocked.
The shield user will just hold block, and facehug you. And there is nothing you can do against it. Kick/Bash will give you some space, but because you can't set a direct hit after that, there is nothing that stops the shield user from facehugging you again. This together with the fact, that you don't do any damage, if you oponent is not in the right distance, leaves you with no options anymore. If those hits would at least interrupt their attacks or push them back...
This is not just my perspective as a spear fighter. I also fight with shield and 1h often, and do this to spear users. Cause what are they gonna do?

Basicly i'm saying the spear has (in my opinion) to many downsides.

Spear vs Bow/Crossbow -> No shield, so you are breakfast
Spear vs. 2H -> You gain like 20cm range in exchange for much damage and the ability to attack from 2 sides. Also you have to mainain distance while you oponent has not.And it's way easier to land a swing, than a stab.
Spear vs Cav -> to get a horse to rear, the enemy has to be an idiot. Even if you do, Cav just shakes it of. If they get thrown of, they are so far away, that you will not be able to kill him, before he is ready to fight again. Also if Cav wields a spear too, they will outrange you.

Besides of that there is another thing that bugs me. I don't know what it is,but if you hold an attack, the release feels weird. It's like the character waits for some additional time before the release. Therefore it just feels unresponsive. It's just no natural movement, if you know what i mean.

Long story short: I think spears need some love. And i don't think, i'm alone with this, regarding how few spear fighters (without shield) i see.
Add me on steam I'll teach you some moves