Who are the Rhodoks?

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socks

Master Knight
WB
It's generally agreed on what the real-life analogues of the other factions are - Swadia is a typical Western European heavy cavalry-based nation, such as France or Germany, Nords are Scandinavia [albeit several centuries techwise behind any of the other factions, for some reason], Vaegirs are the Rus [Russia], Khergits are the Mongolians or a similar group of nomads. But what are the Rhodoks?

A lot of people seem to think they're the Italians, mostly because they're in the South and have pavise shields and crossbows. However, the Italian city-states were largely either oligarchical or monarchical, not republics such as the Rhodoks, and they definitely weren't 'peasant' nations. [while the Rhodoks have a king, it is explained ingame that the so-called "kings" are actually elected] Pavise shields had started to spread throughout Western Europe, not just Italy, by this time, having originated in Eastern Europe. Crossbows were the most common ranged weapon by this time on the continent.

Personally, I think they're the Swiss. The Swiss had a love for polearms [check], were democratic [check], were largely peasant-based [check], had Western European heavy cavalry-based nations [Swadia] attempt to oppress them [check], and largely lived in the mountains [check; this one is more apparent in the Warband SP map, where almost all of Rhodoks is in a mountain range].

What do you think?
 

Nikephoros

Section Moderator
M&BWB
Somehow swiss, somehow italians, somehow showing some aspect of a medieval transposition of, in my opinion, greek city states.

But i agree, mostly they are based on the swiss.

Anyway, i think they are Rhodoks.
Hill peoples confederating together, electing a king, trading between each other, living in a land enjoying a mediterranean climate (producing olives and grapes).

They began as savages, in previous versions (remember the very first rhodok spearmen, with lamellar vests and round shields? Someone suggested they came from atlantis, or from the moon), they became this sort of peculiar population we all know and love.
 

RaVeN

Sergeant Knight
First off Socks, I hope you do not answer in rage as you always do. I am not going to argue that Rhodoks are NOT Swiss, but I am here to back up what we debated about earlier. Before I give my argument, I ask you for your sources that prove...

-Swiss had a love for polearms.
-Were democratic

^ Never mind that
-Were oppressed by heavy-cavalry nations.
-Provide a picture of Warband SP map showing the mountain range that Rhodoks is situated on.

My argument is plain and simple. Whether Rhodoks are Swiss or not, they are at least PARTIALLY based on the Italian city states.

I know the Italian city states were monarchy or oligarchy, but that does not mean the Rhodoks are not similar to them. Look at the economics and military of Rhodoks and compare them to the Italian city-states. The Italian city-states were rich and fingers were pointed at them for being traders and merchants. Well, that is exactly what the Rhodoks are too. Look at how rich you can be from being a merchant in game, buying velvet and selling them, easy denars. I don't think many players still play as merchants anymore.

Also, in terms of military, Rhodoks resemble the Italians a lot. Yes I know that pavise and crossbow were widespread in Europe, but that does not mean everyone had crossbowmen carrying a pavise (board shield in game), a crossbow (a crossbow in game), dagger (short sword in game) like Genoese crossbowmen. I am sure that the board shields were added into the Rhodok crossbowmen's equipment selection to allow them protection from projectiles launched at them, which is also what Genoese crossbowmen did. Also note that these kind of crossbowmen in foreign service as mercenaries, such as Ligures and Genoese were also Italians.

To further back this up, look at Venice and Rhodoks. The Venetian army had mostly Dalmatian and Istralian levies. The city's conscripts fought as infantries. Many were skilled crossbowmen and few, such as aristocrats were cavalrymen. The Rhodoks similarily has what most players would call conscripts or levies as their infantries bearinig the usual shield and polearms. The Rhodoks also had skilled crossbowmen like the Venetians and an inadequate cavalry force.

Balestriere1.jpg


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genoese_crossbowmen

socks said:
Personally, I think they're the Swiss. The Swiss had a love for polearms [check], were democratic [check], were largely peasant-based [check], had Western European heavy cavalry-based nations [Swadia] attempt to oppress them [check], and largely lived in the mountains [check; this one is more apparent in the Warband SP map, where almost all of Rhodoks is in a mountain range].

If you are going to use geography as an argument. Then would this argument be fair???

http://forums.taleworlds.com/index.php/topic,33379.msg859950.html#msg859950




You have argued earlier that because Italians were not a republic and Switzerland was, thus proving Rhodoks are not based on Italians. I can also argue that Rhodoks are not based on Swiss because the Swiss were not an economic power house full of merchants or had pavise crossbowmen like the Italian city-states.
 
RaVeN said:
-Swiss had a love for polearms.
-Were democratic
-Were oppressed by heavy-cavalry nations.

This is all common knowledge, sources are not really needed. Especially the first.

Swiss pikemen were infamous mercenaries.
 

RaVeN

Sergeant Knight
Thanks for that Austupaio.

But I still fail to see Socks's argument of resemblance as reasonable. There were other states that were either democratic and/or republic that were supposedly "oppressed" by heavy-cavalry nations.

For example the Novgorod Republic and Pskov Republic.
 

socks

Master Knight
WB
RaVeN said:
-Were oppressed by heavy-cavalry nations.
-Provide a picture of Warband SP map showing the mountain range that Rhodoks is situated on.
-http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Growth_of_the_Old_Swiss_Confederacy#Territorial_development
The Habsburgs, the German ruling house of the time, decided to move down and try and take over Switzerland. They, like most Western European nations, had the heavy emphasis on heavy cavalry that Swadia does. Here's the Tale of Grunwalder, from Bunduk:
D'you smell that fresh air, Brother? This was my home, before I went abroad in search of coin. It's good to be up in the hills again. It's the smell of freedom. This is the cradle of Rhodok liberty, here under Grunwalder Castle. In my father's day the Swadians would come calling, thinking to make us knuckle our foreheads and call them their overlords. But Grunwalder, an old veteran of the wars from the hills, showed us how to form a battleline with spear and crossbow that could break a Swadian charge. He fell in battle, but the people gave his name to the castle that was built here, where he fell, so that we would remember, and always stand firm against the horsemens' onslaught.
-
ju7lvq.jpg
Most of the Rhodok villages/castles, and Jelkala + Yalen, are obscured by the mountains, which are analogous to the Swiss Alps.

RaVeN said:
I know the Italian city states were monarchy or oligarchy, but that does not mean the Rhodoks are not similar to them. Look at the economics and military of Rhodoks and compare them to the Italian city-states. The Italian city-states were rich and fingers were pointed at them for being traders and merchants. Well, that is exactly what the Rhodoks are too. Look at how rich you can be from being a merchant in game, buying velvet and selling them, easy denars.
Eh. Can't argue with that. The Rhodoks do have grapes in WB.

RaVeN said:
Also, in terms of military, Rhodoks resemble the Italians a lot. Yes I know that pavise and crossbow were widespread in Europe, but that does not mean everyone had crossbowmen carrying a pavise (board shield in game), a crossbow (a crossbow in game), dagger (short sword in game) like Genoese crossbowmen. I am sure that the board shields were added into the Rhodok crossbowmen's equipment selection to allow them protection from projectiles launched at them, which is also what Genoese crossbowmen did. Also note that these kind of crossbowmen in foreign service as mercenaries, such as Ligures and Genoese were also Italians.
No it does not, however it also does not mean that the Genoese were the only people to use that tactic. They're just the most well known pavise crossbowman, but I guarantee that there were plenty of such in Eastern Europe, where the pavise originated.

RaVeN said:
To further back this up, look at Venice and Rhodoks. The Venetian army had mostly Dalmatian and Istralian levies. The city's conscripts fought as infantries. Many were skilled crossbowmen and few, such as aristocrats were cavalrymen. The Rhodoks similarily has what most players would call conscripts or levies as their infantries bearinig the usual shield and polearms. The Rhodoks also had skilled crossbowmen like the Venetians and an inadequate cavalry force.
The mountain Swiss - they were almost an entirely different state from the Swiss on the plains, who were much more like other Western European nations - were peasants, too. They had an unusual fascination with polearms and put it to good use, and also had quite a few crossbowmen.

RaVeN said:
socks said:
Personally, I think they're the Swiss. The Swiss had a love for polearms [check], were democratic [check], were largely peasant-based [check], had Western European heavy cavalry-based nations [Swadia] attempt to oppress them [check], and largely lived in the mountains [check; this one is more apparent in the Warband SP map, where almost all of Rhodoks is in a mountain range].

If you are going to use geography as an argument. Then would this argument be fair???

http://forums.taleworlds.com/index.php/topic,33379.msg859950.html#msg859950
While the only part of geography I used as an argument was the mountains, no, it wouldn't be fair. The Swadians are nothing like the Byzantines, and Vaegirs is a tad cold for Turkey.


RaVeN said:
You have argued earlier that because Italians were not a republic and Switzerland was, thus proving Rhodoks are not based on Italians. I can also argue that Rhodoks are not based on Swiss because the Swiss were not an economic power house full of merchants or had pavise crossbowmen like the Italian city-states.
Eh. While I can't argue on the economic bit, once again, Italy wasn't the only place to put pavises and crossbows together.

RaVeN said:
Thanks for that Austupaio.

But I still fail to see Socks's argument of resemblance as reasonable. There were other states that were either democratic and/or republic that were supposedly "oppressed" by heavy-cavalry nations.

For example the Novgorod Republic and Pskov Republic.
Rus = Vaegirs
 

Oskatat

Squire
M&B
is it fair to say that any nation in this game is not so much based on 1  real nation, but rather a group of them? taking and leaving as desired.

though i must admit that in my opinion the Rhodok army most closely resembled italian city states armies, who were usually fighting the holy roman empire, since they (the germans) considered themself the true heirs to rome and italy, and France, both cavalry heavy armies that both could have been or maybe both were the inspiration to the swadian
 
Oskatat said:
is it fair to say that any nation in this game is not so much based on 1  real nation, but rather a group of them? taking and leaving as desired.
I think this is the more likely possibility.

In my game, Graveth is a Consul, not a king.
 

vota dc

Sergeant Knight at Arms
M&BWB
socks said:
However, the Italian city-states were largely either oligarchical or monarchical, not republics such as the Rhodoks, 

They were republic.Rhodoks are a mix between Swiss and Genoese.
But I am agree that are more Swiss...why?
Crossbow - both Swiss and Genoese
Mountains - Swiss could have higher mountains,but Genoese have not plains at all:eek:nly hills and mountains...so both.
Lake - The big lake: that is Swiss and not Genoese!
And then of course far from sea is more Swiss than Genoese.
 

RaVeN

Sergeant Knight
Wow such a big change in the map.

socks said:
No it does not, however it also does not mean that the Genoese were the only people to use that tactic. They're just the most well known pavise crossbowman, but I guarantee that there were plenty of such in Eastern Europe, where the pavise originated.

It does not resemble the armies of the Italian city-states? Well, could you name those pavise crossbowmen in Eastern Europe? I really don't know about that. And I did not say it is only the Genoese who used such tactics, however, there is no doubt that the devs got some inspirations from the Italian city-states when making the Rhodoks.

socks said:
The mountain Swiss - they were almost an entirely different state from the Swiss on the plains, who were much more like other Western European nations - were peasants, too. They had an unusual fascination with polearms and put it to good use, and also had quite a few crossbowmen.

Yes, but I am still unconvinced that Rhodoks are not partially based on the Italian city-states. I am not saying they are completely based on the Italians, every faction is based on at least 2-3 RL states.


socks said:
Rus = Vaegirs

Aye we know
 

socks

Master Knight
WB
RaVeN said:
It does not resemble the armies of the Italian city-states? Well, could you name those pavise crossbowmen in Eastern Europe? I really don't know about that. And I did not say it is only the Genoese who used such tactics, however, there is no doubt that the devs got some inspirations from the Italian city-states when making the Rhodoks.
No I cannot, because all of the websites say the pavises originated in Pavia, which is false. They originated in Lithuania, but were just named for Pavia by the Italians. However, once again, the Rhodoks use their pavises purely for melee combat, not propped up like 'equipment' as the Italian pavise crossbowmen did, so there is a key difference in tactics there.

However, your idea that it's unlikely that there could be pavises and crossbows in the same faction is fundamentally flawed. I've said before about how both of those things were spread throughout the continent by this time. If you've noticed, every faction has the same shield type for all of its units [except for bowmen, who don't have shields, and cavalry]. Swadian crossbowmen and infantry both have heater shields. If the Rhodok infantry didn't have pavise shields but the crossbowmen did, then I might view your point in a better light.
RaVeN said:
Yes, but I am still unconvinced that Rhodoks are not partially based on the Italian city-states. I am not saying they are completely based on the Italians, every faction is based on at least 2-3 RL states.
Okay, I'll cede that the Rhodoks are similar to the Italians in that they have grapes :razz:
 
:roll:

The whole argument is silly, obviously they are based on a variety of things, not just one. I'd even say that the word 'based' is over-doing it, I think the developer's just kind of pulled ideas together and shoved them into factions, rather than specifically stating, 'The new factions will be like Swiss Italians.'

Khergits aren't solely Mongolian for instance, they also have a touch of China and Japan about them.

 

RaVeN

Sergeant Knight
socks said:
No I cannot, because all of the websites say the pavises originated in Pavia, which is false. They originated in Lithuania, but were just named for Pavia by the Italians. However, once again, the Rhodoks use their pavises purely for melee combat, not propped up like 'equipment' as the Italian pavise crossbowmen did, so there is a key difference in tactics there.

There is a different because the developers had no intentions of making deployable board shields. However, if you think about it, Crossbowmen in game were given shield to allow them to protect themselves for the slow speed of crossbow reloading. Which sounds like pavise acting as shield for crossbowmen when shooting, of course, the developers did not put in deployable shields.

Okay, I'll cede that the Rhodoks are similar to the Italians in that they have grapes  :razz:

Well, you aruged that because the Swiss were polearm lovers so the Rhodoks are based on them because they love polearms. I can argue the same, Genoese were crossbow lovers so Rhodoks are based on them because they love crossbows.

In terms of being pole arm lovers, we could easily argue that the Rhodoks are much more similar to Scots and the Flemish, both Scots and Flemish were known for thwarting heavy cavalry with skiltrons and doing a good job at it defeating heavy cavalry like that. Check out the Battle of Golden Spurs, Falkirk, Stirling, etc...

At the battle of Golden Spurs, the Flemish army was purely made up of infantries, town and urban militiamen (sounds Rhodok-ish doesn't it?), equipped well with spears, polearms and a weapon that is unsurprisingly similar to what the Rhodok infantries are equipped with, -the Goedendag.

Goedendag_flamenco.jpg



Thus, I fail to see your argument plausible.
 

RaVeN

Sergeant Knight
Austupaio said:
Cool, ignoring posts.

Sorry, but I was trying to end the debate I had with socks that happened a day earlier.

Austupaio said:
:roll:

The whole argument is silly, obviously they are based on a variety of things, not just one. I'd even say that the word 'based' is over-doing it, I think the developer's just kind of pulled ideas together and shoved them into factions, rather than specifically stating, 'The new factions will be like Swiss Italians.'

True or not, my argument was that the Rhodoks are at lest partially based on the Italians. I never said they are purely

Khergits aren't solely Mongolian for instance, they also have a touch of China and Japan about them.

I know that, even though a lot of people see Mongols and Mongols Only = Khergit. For example, the pudao was a standard issue Chinese weapon for infantries during the Ming Dynasty, yet it is seen in Khergit equipments as Hafted Blade. The Chinese also had horse archers and massive cavalry armies, which allowed China to cross the desert and destroy the Xiong Nu Huns during the Han Dynasty.

---

Happy? :smile:
 

socks

Master Knight
WB
Eh. Ravenstein, you're just arguing for the sake of arguing now. You've compared, variously, the Rhodoks to Rhodes, the Flemish, the Scots, and the Italians now. Somehow I doubt they're based on all of these.

There's just an overwhelming number of correlations between the Swiss and Rhodoks. Once again -

- are in the mountains
- field peasant armies armed largely with polearms
- are democratic
- were oppressed by heavy cavalry nations [Germany/Swadia]

All of your examples here are scattered across the entirety of Europe and are vastly different from eachother in many respects, while all the same qualities apply to Switzerland, a small nation in central Europe. You continually argue abou that because Rhodoks has both pavises and crossbows it is based in that regard off Italy; however, I'll restate that both pavises and crossbows were very common by this time throughout Eastern and Southern Europe, and, again, the Rhodok crossbowmen don't use their pavise shields like the Genoese did - the Genoese shields were impractical for melee combat and used purely for cover as the crossbows reloaded, while the Rhodok ones are just the opposite.

Austupaio: eh. That's an argument in itself. Still, why should we just end our discussion just because you say it's 'silly'? What the Rhodoks are supposed to represent have largely remained an enigma since they were first implemented, and this thread might help establish what they are.
 
RaVeN said:
Yes, I am.  :grin:
Also, I had a look at the new .BRF's for Warband, new Khergit architecture and costumes (especially the Lady's dresses) reek of the far East.
socks said:
What the Rhodoks are supposed to represent have largely remained an enigma since they were first implemented, and this thread might help establish what they are.
That's what I'm saying, they're the same thing all the other factions in the game are; a big mish-mash of different cultures.
 

RaVeN

Sergeant Knight
socks said:
Eh. Ravenstein, you're just arguing for the sake of arguing now. You've compared, variously, the Rhodoks to Rhodes, the Flemish, the Scots, and the Italians now. Somehow I doubt they're based on all of these.

There's just an overwhelming number of correlations between the Swiss and Rhodoks. Once again -

- are in the mountains
- field peasant armies armed largely with polearms
- are democratic
- were oppressed by heavy cavalry nations [Germany/Swadia]

All of your examples here are scattered across the entirety of Europe and are vastly different from eachother in many respects, while all the same qualities apply to Switzerland, a small nation in central Europe. You continually argue abou that because Rhodoks has both pavises and crossbows it is based in that regard off Italy; however, I'll restate that both pavises and crossbows were very common by this time throughout Eastern and Southern Europe, and, again, the Rhodok crossbowmen don't use their pavise shields like the Genoese did - the Genoese shields were impractical for melee combat and used purely for cover as the crossbows reloaded, while the Rhodok ones are just the opposite.

I fail to see how being democratic count as an argument. There were many states that were republics during the time. There were also many states being oppressed by heavy cavalry nations. There were also many many states with largely polearms and militias. None of these arguments are good enough to say that the Rhodoks are Swiss.

Socks, review my argument please. I am not arguing for the sake of arguing. I am debating because I disagree with you that Rhodoks are based off the Swiss. I am arguing that the Rhodoks resemble the Italian city-states a lot and they also resemble the Scots and Flemish a lot as well. The thing is the Rhodoks are based off many cultures, not just Swiss or Italians, but pretty much a combination of them.

-Both Scots and Rhodoks are no doubt mountainous.
-Both no doubt have used a lot of pole arms to great efficiency.
-Both faced heavy cavalry nations. Scots to English heavy cavalry and beating them with skiltrons as Rhodoks faced Swadians.

-Both Italian city-states and Rhodoks are full of merchants, wealth and commerce.
-Both had very similar tactics,-Crossbowmen with pavise, daggers/short sword.
-Many city-states were also Republic.

-Both the Flemish and Rhodoks used polearms to great extent and to great efficiency.
-Both used spiked club, the picture I showed, in combination with their effective polearms.
-Both faced heavy cavalry nations, Flanders faced England and France as Rhodoks faced Swadia.

Of course, I am not suggesting that Rhodoks are based on all of these solely, but it is undoubtful that the devs looked at all three of these when making the Rhodoks.

Austupaio said:
Yes, I am.  :grin:
Also, I had a look at the new .BRF's for Warband, new Khergit architecture and costumes (especially the Lady's dresses) reek of the far East.

Would you be kind enough to show me a picture of their new architecture and costumes? I'd love to see as I haven't seen Warband SP.
 

socks

Master Knight
WB
Austupaio said:
Also, I had a look at the new .BRF's for Warband, new Khergit architecture and costumes (especially the Lady's dresses) reek of the far East.
Wait, which one is the Kherg architecture in?

RaVeN: oh, for ****'s sake.

- granted, but Rhodoks is entirely the wrong place to represent Scotland. It's the southwest corner of the continent, not on a Northwest island.
- granted.
- this would imply that Swadia represents England, which makes a whole lot of sense because Swadia is right next to Vaegirs/Rus and Khergits/steppe nomads [/sarcasm].

- granted.
- you're saying this again - you're like a broken record. Once again [is this the third time?] I'll respond that .. **** it. Just go and read my earlier posts, I don't want to write out my entire argument against this again. Also, daggers =/= short swords first off, and the Rhodok crossbowmen use neither of these things; they use regular swords or picks mostly.
- no, they weren't. They were titular republics, but in reality were just oligarchies.

- granted.
- granted. This is extremely minor however - a single weapon being the cornerstone of this argument? No.
- granted.

Once again, I'll point out that while all of these nations combined have attributes similar to Rhodoks, the Swiss had them all period.

Mountainous - Switzerland, Scotland
Oppressed by Heavy Cavalry - Switzerland, Scotland, Flanders
Polearms - Switzerland, Scotland, Flanders
Democracy - Switzerland
Peasant Armies - Switzerland, Scotland [the Flemmish armies that opposed the French/English were organized town militias who had a large group of nobles supplementing them.]
Merchants - Italy
Southern/Central part of continent: Switzerland, Flanders, Italy

Note how there is a single attribute that Switzerland and Rhodoks don't share, while none of the other nations can say as much. It just makes a lot more sense that Rhodoks are based primarily on Switzerland than a conglomerate of nations spread across the entirety of Europe, from an island off the coast of Turkey to the Northernmost tip of Great Britain. There's around three thousand kilometers between these two, and additionally all of these nations have gaping differences from eachother.

Again, I'll grant you that the economics of Rhodoks are based off Italy, but only because I can find no documentation of that of medieval Switzerland.
 
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