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Which leveling system do you prefer Warband or Bannerlord?
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Tommy1984
Recruit
I started with these skills and did a bit of grinding:
The first half I did normally in the game, but then I used a skill XP multiplier to get to the hard limits.
I have found following hard limits on my character:
hard skill limits:
Then I checked for the "real" hard limit and its:
I have found following hard limits on my character:
hard skill limits:
- 10 learning limit (attribute 2, focus 0) -> 18 hard limit
- 20 learning limit (attribute 3, focus 0) -> 32 hard limit
- 160 learning limit (attribute 2 focus 5) -> 218 hard limit
- 170 learning limit (attribute 3, focus 5) -> 232 hard limit
- 210 learning limit(attribute 7, focus 5) -> 288 hard limit
Then I checked for the "real" hard limit and its:
- 240 learning limit (attribute 10, focus 5) -> 330 hard limit
- Minister of Health (Medicine) can give:
- (330-200) * 0.5 = +65 bonus hit points to all troops
- Two Handed Mastery (Two handed) can give:
- (330-200) * 0.2 = +26% speed
- (330-200) * 0.5 = +65% damage
- Immortal Charm (Charm) can give:
- (330-250) * 0.2 = 16 influence per day
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I started with these skills and did a bit of grinding:
The first half I did normally in the game, but then I used a skill XP multiplier to get to the hard limits.
I have found following hard limits on my character:
hard skill limits:
So to be able to reach the highest perk for a skill (skill = 275+) you need 7 attribute points and 5 focus. But that will also need a lot of grinding.
- 10 learning limit (attribute 2, focus 0) -> 18 hard limit
- 20 learning limit (attribute 3, focus 0) -> 32 hard limit
- 160 learning limit (attribute 2 focus 5) -> 218 hard limit
- 170 learning limit (attribute 3, focus 5) -> 232 hard limit
- 210 learning limit(attribute 7, focus 5) -> 288 hard limit
Then I checked for the "real" hard limit and its:
There are currently a few scaling perks so here is what you would get if you absolutly max out a skill:
- 240 learning limit (attribute 10, focus 5) -> 330 hard limit
- Minister of Health (Medicine) can give:
- (330-200) * 0.5 = +65 bonus hit points to all troops
- Two Handed Mastery (Two handed) can give:
- (330-200) * 0.2 = +26% speed
- (330-200) * 0.5 = +65% damage
- Immortal Charm (Charm) can give:
- (330-250) * 0.2 = 16 influence per day
Wow, thanks Tommy. That's some great info. What mod did you use to get the skill multiplier? Also, how did you increase your mercy, honor, and generosity? Thanks
Tommy1984
Recruit
I haven't looked into mods yet. I used the Fling Trainer for testing this: https://flingtrainer.com/trainer/mount-blade-ii-bannerlord-trainer/
The shown traits are from character generation - one of the last options gave them.
This.
The new system is inherently unfun as it currently stands. Many of us don't want to "work" and "try really hard" on various different UI screens to upgrade stats that in Warband you could simply allocate points to as you levelled. I've played maybe 10 hours so far and my character feels identical to when I first started with the only difference being I have better equipment and a faster horse. I'm now demoralised to the point that I'm struggling to find the will to keep playing and actually get to the midgame. The earlygame grind in Warband was unequivocally the worst part of the game, and that now seems to have been stretched out to the point of absurdity while removing aspects (i.e. earlygame training skill, the ability to level athletics without running around at 0.1 mph for hours) that made it at least a little less monotonous...
A lot of the agency also seems to have been removed- passively level leadership by having a larger party, passively level medicine by getting injured/having wounded troops, increase scouting by stumbling on a bandit hideout etc etc.
I know it's early access and hopefully it will be tweaked substantially, but as it stands it actually puts me off playing the campaign for the long haul and I wouldn't be surprised if there are a lot of slightly more casual SP players who feel the same. It bemuses me that people prefer a system that reduces the amount of freedom players have to play the game the way they want to.
Gremgoblin
Recruit
I really like the new system but it seems like I am in the minority.
Or at least, I like the way it is intended to work. I like the perk system, I like the ''learn by doing'' which means you can't just spec into crossbows when you don't own a crossbow. It makes sense to my peasant brain that you can't learn something without doing something.
However what really bothers me is that leveling is so. God. Damn. Slow. And everyone outclasses you in the progress, even a down on her luck woman I met in the tavern and offered a job is a better warrior than my 34 year old character with a background in, literally, being a soldier. Can't win a tournament if there's a named character because they just sprint at you and spam you to death because they swing a sword like it's a twig. Meanwhile your professional soldier lookin' ass can't even swing a sword fast enough to cut through some cloth.
And I agree with Uruk34 above, in that some of the ways you level stuff are a bit stupid.. what part of ''scouting'' did I learn by literally standing on top of a bandit hideout?
So I think the system really needs a lot of tweaking but I don't think it is inherently a better or worse system than Warband, just that I prefer it from a roleplaying perspective. Also, I'm glad my character is no longer a 9999 strength god among men that can 1 hit people with a butter knife. You know, Warband style. Let's not pretend Warbands system was without flaws!
Or at least, I like the way it is intended to work. I like the perk system, I like the ''learn by doing'' which means you can't just spec into crossbows when you don't own a crossbow. It makes sense to my peasant brain that you can't learn something without doing something.
However what really bothers me is that leveling is so. God. Damn. Slow. And everyone outclasses you in the progress, even a down on her luck woman I met in the tavern and offered a job is a better warrior than my 34 year old character with a background in, literally, being a soldier. Can't win a tournament if there's a named character because they just sprint at you and spam you to death because they swing a sword like it's a twig. Meanwhile your professional soldier lookin' ass can't even swing a sword fast enough to cut through some cloth.
And I agree with Uruk34 above, in that some of the ways you level stuff are a bit stupid.. what part of ''scouting'' did I learn by literally standing on top of a bandit hideout?
So I think the system really needs a lot of tweaking but I don't think it is inherently a better or worse system than Warband, just that I prefer it from a roleplaying perspective. Also, I'm glad my character is no longer a 9999 strength god among men that can 1 hit people with a butter knife. You know, Warband style. Let's not pretend Warbands system was without flaws!
That's simply not true, it's just a matter of opinion. I and many others DO like to have to practice certain skills in order to level them up instead of being free to allocate the skill points myself. As you can see from the poll, more than half of players do want to ''work'' and ''try really hard'' to earn their skillpoints. Don't state your opinion like it's a fact.
No
You are in the majority. 242 yes vs 195 now as of this date. Of course those not liking the new system will voice and shout louder than those who like it. But the numbers dont lie, a clear majority likes it (and i like it, despite all its flaws).
No
You are in the majority. Of course those not liking the new system will voice and shout louder than those who like it. But the numbers dont lie, a clear majority likes it (and i like it, despite all its flaws).
Yea, pretty happy I don't get to level my leadership skill anymore when I killed someone with a bow. I don't understand what's to like about that. Except of course for people who like everything when it's as easy as possible. And the other faction the fanatic traditionalists who see every change in how they did something before as heresy.
Gremgoblin
Recruit
No
You are in the majority. 242 yes vs 195 now as of this date. Of course those not liking the new system will voice and shout louder than those who like it. But the numbers dont lie, a clear majority likes it (and i like it, despite all its flaws).
I think that's a good way of putting it; the system very obviously has flaws and I think the people who like the new system also agree that it's shoddy at best. I definitely agree that the system really needs work and, as it is now, is not good at all. But the implications of what it can be when it's done are amazing and, also, I like the idea of modders being able to add new perks to fit their mod.
Warband never really gave me ideas for mods I could make as I played the game, but Bannerlord has already given me a few ideas for mods I could make that are simple and easy to do for me. Things like the perks should be relatively easy to mod, I think! Just think of the implications of that vs. Warband, where the proficiencies were pretty hardcoded.
I like the new system as well, at least as a baseline (just like the rest of the game at this early access stage).
One of the things that could help it is, IMO, introducing skill books that grant focus points. This would cap their effect, prevent them from giving artificial progress, but also allow you to fully cap (or close enough) the skills you want your character to major in, if you have the means for these books, by speeding up the leveling and removing the need to grind for level ups.
I think atribute points should be more frequently given as well (there's too many attributes and too few points). Or else, they could be granted on a per skill group basis, where you'd gain vigor points from x levels in one handed/two handed/polearm, and levels would be for focus points only.
Moreover, perks could be inherited from the parents or bought from trainers, so that you could potentially have a character with all perks in a given skill. Since the effort and investment would be large, this wouldn't denature the current alternative based system.
To finish, some perks could be replaced by 'milestones' which give small quantitative boosts and are automatically awarded. This way you keep the satisfaction of leveling the skill but don't feel like you invested in something useless. Perks should be reserved to qualitative things, such as 'can use any bow on horse-back' and such, or quantitative changes that make a big difference (like significantly reduce cost of garrison or party).
One of the things that could help it is, IMO, introducing skill books that grant focus points. This would cap their effect, prevent them from giving artificial progress, but also allow you to fully cap (or close enough) the skills you want your character to major in, if you have the means for these books, by speeding up the leveling and removing the need to grind for level ups.
I think atribute points should be more frequently given as well (there's too many attributes and too few points). Or else, they could be granted on a per skill group basis, where you'd gain vigor points from x levels in one handed/two handed/polearm, and levels would be for focus points only.
Moreover, perks could be inherited from the parents or bought from trainers, so that you could potentially have a character with all perks in a given skill. Since the effort and investment would be large, this wouldn't denature the current alternative based system.
To finish, some perks could be replaced by 'milestones' which give small quantitative boosts and are automatically awarded. This way you keep the satisfaction of leveling the skill but don't feel like you invested in something useless. Perks should be reserved to qualitative things, such as 'can use any bow on horse-back' and such, or quantitative changes that make a big difference (like significantly reduce cost of garrison or party).
I was possibly a little overzealous in that post so I apologise if it came across badly. I do see the merit in the system. I just think the way it's been implemented is horrible as it stands. I think really the issue is more that the current system left me pretty demoralised and frustrated at the lack of progress, rather than it necessarily being inherently worse as a concept than Warband. I was also firmly in the camp of enjoying the sandboxy nature of Warband and I know that's not for everyone. In terms of agency, maybe if a lot of the skill-gain wasn't passive e.g. leadership- solve a dispute in your party or something?
And this is really my key problem with it. Why, after 10 hours ingame, am I still being outpaced by my brand new empire recruits when attacking a bandit hideout, for example (I also went with the soldier background too)? Warband had countless faults, but at least I could get through the tedious earlygame in the space of an afternoon and actually get to the meat of the game content.
Why not have skills level fast in the earlygame, as they do in most other learn by doing games, and THEN force choices and specialisations onto the player? You're not left with a godlike character in the endgame, but at least they can do things to a basic level early on.
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Gremgoblin
Recruit
This is a really great idea!
That's also a great idea, skill books could speed you through the earlygame slogfest and then become useless later in the game (see ESO).
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I do prefer the warband system to be honest. For some reason, it did fell more impactful.
I loved Warband's system, but I think when the kinks are ironed out of the new one it'll be great.
Skills being awarded by playstyle rather than just proficiency upgrades feel good, and some of the perks are really cool. Once the skill gain is corrected it'll be great.
Skills being awarded by playstyle rather than just proficiency upgrades feel good, and some of the perks are really cool. Once the skill gain is corrected it'll be great.
Exactly, especially when you're on your second playthrough (with a heir, say). Farming looters is fun and all but I'd like my heir to get a boost based on how well his dad did. This could be with perk inheritance like I suggested, or if books/education were very expensive things (as they should be, this is the 11th century after all) you'd need a hefty inheritance to profit from.
It would also serve as a money sink, which I think the game needs.
In Theory i prefer Bannerlord's system, however as of right now it needs massive amounts of work to actually get it working and balanced. Its been said alot, too grindy, slow, perks dont work, Focus Points feel a bit pointless etc.
Bannerlords system of learning by doing just feels more immersive than Warbands dumping points into whatever you need. Why there arent any Teachers (Master at Arms, Merchants, Surgeons etc.) for skills in the game i have no idea.
Bannerlords system of learning by doing just feels more immersive than Warbands dumping points into whatever you need. Why there arent any Teachers (Master at Arms, Merchants, Surgeons etc.) for skills in the game i have no idea.
I like the system, it's more interesting than in Warband. I love the idea of perks with interesting things, instead of a simple "increase damage with 8 percent", for example, each time. I read that one of the last perks for two handed is the ability to deflect arrows. How dope does that sound?! Ofcourse in Warband you also had proficiencies, but now in Bannerlord it feels like they really award you for getting higher proficiencies, for actually getting good at something. It's kind of vice versa: in Warband, you increased skills (say Power draw and Weapon mastery) so you could get better at something (say Archery), but in Bannerlord you get better (more proficiency) so you can get perks ("skills"). I like that, because it rewards someone for using something, instead of vice versa where you already reward yourself so you can get better.
What I don't like are a few things:
- This has already been said, but that leveling is so slow. What I liked in Warband was that you could create a literal god. But getting skills above 100 is already a grind, and if you want to fully master a proficiency (get all perks), you have the grind for even more. I read somewhere that to increase smithing from 275 to 276 requires something in the thousands of times of creating smithing projects. I understand that getting a proficiency to level 275 should be really really late game, but maybe speed the exp you can get up with ~50-100 percent.
- Leveling up certain proficiencies is vague on how to do it, or kind of random. For example trade, or tactics. There needs to be some sort of consistent way to level these things up relatively quickly. Also if I want to make my companion better at a certain non-combat skill, I have a hard time wrapping my head on how to do that.
- This has also been said, but companions all have huge proficiencies and you barely ever level them up. I liked in Warband where you had companions that started at like level 1 and you could shape them however you liked.
Kind of a small thing, but I liked how you speed up your bow speed with increasing proficiency in Warband. Apparently this is gone in Bannerlord, while literally every other weapon gets increased speed with increasing proficiency. Why?
What I don't like are a few things:
- This has already been said, but that leveling is so slow. What I liked in Warband was that you could create a literal god. But getting skills above 100 is already a grind, and if you want to fully master a proficiency (get all perks), you have the grind for even more. I read somewhere that to increase smithing from 275 to 276 requires something in the thousands of times of creating smithing projects. I understand that getting a proficiency to level 275 should be really really late game, but maybe speed the exp you can get up with ~50-100 percent.
- Leveling up certain proficiencies is vague on how to do it, or kind of random. For example trade, or tactics. There needs to be some sort of consistent way to level these things up relatively quickly. Also if I want to make my companion better at a certain non-combat skill, I have a hard time wrapping my head on how to do that.
- This has also been said, but companions all have huge proficiencies and you barely ever level them up. I liked in Warband where you had companions that started at like level 1 and you could shape them however you liked.
Kind of a small thing, but I liked how you speed up your bow speed with increasing proficiency in Warband. Apparently this is gone in Bannerlord, while literally every other weapon gets increased speed with increasing proficiency. Why?
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Maybe also a chance for skill books to drop from bandit hideouts? Not sure on the authenticity of bandits keeping stolen books but might provide a slightly more organic way to speed up progression while discouraging the pure looter-farm approach. You could also have them drop later on from successful sieges or large armies so you could build a mini-stockpile for your heirs to further speed up the process next time around. Trainers dotted about the map also seems like a no-brainer.
Just little things to make the whole experience feel less draining than it does currently.
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