For me the biggest issue is how anticlimactic the entire system is. I basically get no benefit from leveling, just an opportunity to lift a potential skill limit. Playing second time arround I safely ignored almost entire leveling and just check once in a while whether I have reached a cap on some skills or not. That shouldn't be the point of leveling.
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Which leveling system do you prefer Warband or Bannerlord?
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I agree, it is a mix of some bad ideas from other games put together in a game where it does not belong.
And this is another problem, it's boring. Leveling your companions is boring. I never felt this way playing mount and blade, I might get bored getting bogged down in the late game, but never at the start.
The new system is far better, but it needs to be improved.
With the old system you could level up weapons you never use, which was just silly.
With the old system you could level up weapons you never use, which was just silly.
Roger_Dabbit
Recruit
Maybe part of this is that the system was built around giving you an attribute point every 3 levels, but that doesn't appear to work? Last I fired it up, the tooltip said I get an attribute point every 3 levels, but I was only getting one every 5 levels.
I haven't read through most of the responses so far, so I don't know if I am repeating anyone when I say this but...
This new system feels like a badly implemented KCD leveling system to me. I like the general idea of what they are going for - which is that you become progressively better at the things you actually do - but what throws it completely off is that they put hard caps on progression. It doesn't make much sense whether you look at it from a realism or gameplay perspective.
I think this system would be better off if the hard caps were entirely removed, and the focus points only did what their name suggests; increasing the learning rate for specific skills.
In addition, every so often (maybe once every two months or three in-game months) you should be able to completely reassign your focus points, as a player may want to change his general play style mid-playthrough. For example, someone can start a campaign with the intention of going sword & board all the way through, but at some point gets a bit bored of it and wants to change to focusing on mostly 2 handed or ranged gameplay. It would be in this game's best interest to allow players to play the way they want to, not only at the beginning, but all the way through a campaign. Most players don't enjoy missing out on potential bonuses that can increase the efficiency of their gameplay, so it would be much appreciated if focus points could be reassigned throughout a playthrough.
From the realism perspective, people absolutely have the ability to shift their main focuses in life.
The only reason I wouldn't advocate for focus points being able to be reassigned continuously at will throughout a playthrough would be that it could easily be cheesed. For example: right before someone is about to do anything smithing related, they could reassign all their focus points into smithing, do their smithing, and then reassign their focus points elsewhere immediately after they are done smithing, reaping all the benefits of the focus system without losing out on potential experience gain elsewhere. At that point, the game would be better off not having a focus system at all and development should be focused on creating a well paced, simple progression system, without any gimmicky learning rate boosting mechanic.
To answer the poll question specifically, I think the main idea driving Bannerlord's leveling system has the potential to be better than Warband's leveling system, as it has the potential to not lock anyone into a specific playstyle throughout an entire campaign. Right now though, Bannerlord's leveling system is so badly implemented, that the obvious answer is that Warband's system is currently better.
This new system feels like a badly implemented KCD leveling system to me. I like the general idea of what they are going for - which is that you become progressively better at the things you actually do - but what throws it completely off is that they put hard caps on progression. It doesn't make much sense whether you look at it from a realism or gameplay perspective.
I think this system would be better off if the hard caps were entirely removed, and the focus points only did what their name suggests; increasing the learning rate for specific skills.
In addition, every so often (maybe once every two months or three in-game months) you should be able to completely reassign your focus points, as a player may want to change his general play style mid-playthrough. For example, someone can start a campaign with the intention of going sword & board all the way through, but at some point gets a bit bored of it and wants to change to focusing on mostly 2 handed or ranged gameplay. It would be in this game's best interest to allow players to play the way they want to, not only at the beginning, but all the way through a campaign. Most players don't enjoy missing out on potential bonuses that can increase the efficiency of their gameplay, so it would be much appreciated if focus points could be reassigned throughout a playthrough.
From the realism perspective, people absolutely have the ability to shift their main focuses in life.
The only reason I wouldn't advocate for focus points being able to be reassigned continuously at will throughout a playthrough would be that it could easily be cheesed. For example: right before someone is about to do anything smithing related, they could reassign all their focus points into smithing, do their smithing, and then reassign their focus points elsewhere immediately after they are done smithing, reaping all the benefits of the focus system without losing out on potential experience gain elsewhere. At that point, the game would be better off not having a focus system at all and development should be focused on creating a well paced, simple progression system, without any gimmicky learning rate boosting mechanic.
To answer the poll question specifically, I think the main idea driving Bannerlord's leveling system has the potential to be better than Warband's leveling system, as it has the potential to not lock anyone into a specific playstyle throughout an entire campaign. Right now though, Bannerlord's leveling system is so badly implemented, that the obvious answer is that Warband's system is currently better.
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Levelling up is basically the video game idea of growing up. You sacrifice your potential as you grow up. You cannot simply switch focus without sacrificing something in return. This is why the cap is there. It's to prevent the character from turning into a complete Mary Sue once they tweak the rates later on. It's tied to the whole system.
It's fine if people want immersion but why keep the role-playing mechanics then?
It's fine if people want immersion but why keep the role-playing mechanics then?
Ted Striker
Veteran
No hard caps, focus points unlock perks, perks get rebalanced, and stats give bonuses instead of cap increases.
The idea of adding points to stats like Vigor and Endurance and getting no immediate benefit like +hp, +speed, +accuracy etc. rubs me the wrong way.
Maybe I'm just not used to this new system. I do love how we have to level skills by actually using them instead of just spending points, but gaining a character level in this system feels anti-climactic. Ooh I get another focus point, whoop dee freakin doo.
The learning by doing-system sounds nice, but it don't really works out in an RPG, it never did and never will.
As much as i like authenticity (spelled this right the first time, i am so proud), or like people tend to call it "realism", this is an RPG.
Give me Exp and let me develop my character.
The weapon profiencies of M&B was always a good addition.
To figure out this won't work for a single player RPG wasn't that hard.
It could work for MMos (Darkfall for an example), but there people rather afk-cheat or bot to bypass the systems.
I really like the smithing and trading and just exploring the world (because it is so beautiful :') ), but if you force the player to do this on every playthrough, you kill the replayability and that was the one thing that made M&B successful: you could play it for hundrets of hours and no 10 hours was the same.
Its not about "became a master of all", this utterly bull**** and if you ever did that in Warband you cheatet the **** out of it.
This is a single player RPG, you should be able to play whatever you enjoy most to level your character the way you like.
Well, and you should have the time to do so as long as you want without die of old age, because that system is bumming enough already in real life, but thats another story.
In the end, your clan has to be good in all aspects, thats why you level your companions and keep a party together.
As much as i like authenticity (spelled this right the first time, i am so proud), or like people tend to call it "realism", this is an RPG.
Give me Exp and let me develop my character.
The weapon profiencies of M&B was always a good addition.
To figure out this won't work for a single player RPG wasn't that hard.
It could work for MMos (Darkfall for an example), but there people rather afk-cheat or bot to bypass the systems.
I really like the smithing and trading and just exploring the world (because it is so beautiful :') ), but if you force the player to do this on every playthrough, you kill the replayability and that was the one thing that made M&B successful: you could play it for hundrets of hours and no 10 hours was the same.
Its not about "became a master of all", this utterly bull**** and if you ever did that in Warband you cheatet the **** out of it.
This is a single player RPG, you should be able to play whatever you enjoy most to level your character the way you like.
Well, and you should have the time to do so as long as you want without die of old age, because that system is bumming enough already in real life, but thats another story.
In the end, your clan has to be good in all aspects, thats why you level your companions and keep a party together.
Frost_
Recruit
I really like the concept of new system, but it totally broken right now.
The problem that i faced with is hard cap. So, i have character with 3-4-3-3-4-3 attribute points at 11 lvl and 23 focus points distrubuted.
The problem - i will not be able to get ANY of 275 talent.
At lvl 24 my character should stop lvling if I calcualted all right.
To get to lvl 275 talent you need Learning Limit at 280 for that skill.
5 Focus Points gives you only 150 Learning Limit. So you need 280-150=130 learning limit from attributes. Or 14 points in corresponding attribute.
So my character wasn't able to get any of lvl 275 talets from the start. Game over %) The only way to get one of those is to create character with at least 7 lvls in corresponding attribute and spend all additional attributes only in that stat. (It is possible to start with 8 AP in one stat character, but you still only limited to focus on skills that are connected to one attribute). And if you want to max two skills from different attributes? Not possible!
So, main problems i want to point:
- Lots of talents like +3% to speed/damage? We get speed and damage from leveling skill, talets should be more interesting.
- You have to create "focused" character with at least 7 AP and spend all additional AP in that stat to be able to get lvl 275 talent. Thats not abvoius at start.
- You can't focus on two skills from different attributes. Even with 8 AP start, you will have only 1 free AP for other stats. (If my math about max lvl is right).
- Also if you want to focus only on One Handed, you still "waste" you AP learning limit for 2H and Polearms. It is more frustrating when you try to focus on Steward, without Medicine and Engeneering for example.
- As Clan Leader you probably want to focus on social (leadership/trade) as you can assign Quartermaster, Surgeon, Engeneer and Scout roles to your companions. You still be able to get 160 skill in martial skills. Or you shoul focus on battle skills and stuck on 160 +- with other skills.
- "Legendary Smith" talent? rly?) At 24 lvl I could only be able to have 290 Learning Limit, 300 at lvl 25. If i put all AP into endurance - which is not best choice. Probably it should start work from 275 lvl smithing?
- You will be able to get only as high as 160 skill on other skills (5 FP + 2 AP) in 12 skills of you want to focus on one skill.
- Skill training inflation. There is much harder to lvl smth from 200 to 201, but you still get 1 skill point counted to your lvl as of you lvl some skill from 5 to 6.
So, my suggestions:
- As it was mentioned many times, system need some tunes in training speed of some skills and total reballance in perks.
- Remove Learning Limit from attribute points. Attribute points should give you better skill learning speed plus passive bonuses (I really like ideas about stats in quote below). It feels more natural - more strong or agile learns faster with melee or ranged skills.
- Remove learning speed from focus points. Each FP shoud give +60 learning limit. So at 5 FP you get 300 learning limit. But you need to think about how mich FP will be availible to character at max lvl if it would be hard capped.
- Skill training inflation. Game forces you to lvl skillls that are low, because it's easier and you need quantity, not quality to lvl up. I like how somewhat similar system realized at Tyranny. Character has XP there. When you lvl up your skill, you get part of XP for that lvl of skill added to your character XP. So to lvl high lvl skills is as profitable as low lvl skills. Also you can reward player with XP for quests/battles in addition to XP from skill ups.
- After this changes some tunes should be done at FP availible to prevent creating ultimate characters. It is 18 skills in game and to be able max 3-5 of them looks ok. But I want to have choice what to max and be able to do that, not limited to skills in one attribute tree.
The problem that i faced with is hard cap. So, i have character with 3-4-3-3-4-3 attribute points at 11 lvl and 23 focus points distrubuted.
The problem - i will not be able to get ANY of 275 talent.
At lvl 24 my character should stop lvling if I calcualted all right.I made google docs table:
docs.google.com
For each AP you can get 10*3=30 Learning limit.
For each FP you can get 30 Learning limit.
First AP gives zero Learning Limit.
You start with lvl 1 and need 5 sp more for each lvl to lvl up. (10 fro 3 lvl, 15 for 4...) - if nothing changes on higher levels.
I started with 2-4-3-2-4-3 AP character. Which gives 1*30+3*30+2*30+1*30+3*30+2*30=360 Learning Limit in total for AP.
You get 12 FP for creation and 1 FP at start, which gives you 13*30=390 Learning Limit for FP.
When you create character you get 210 (5 in each skill plus 120 for history choises) skill points already learned but you get no lvls from them.
Seems like i did little mistake for 30 skill points somewhere - cant find but main idea shoud be right.
So at lvl 24 my character should have 1440 Learning Limit in total, but to lvl up it needs 1500 skill points.
From this 24 lvls I can get only 7 AP in addition to what i had on start. So highest attribute i could get is 7+4=11.
M&B 2 Lvling
Лист1 lvl,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11,12,13,14,15,16,17,18,19 sp to lvl up,5,10,15,20,25,30,35,40,45,50,55,60,65,70,75,80,85,90,95 Learning Limit for AP +,30,30,30,30,30,30 Learning Limit for FP +,30,30,30,30,30,30,30,30,30,30,30,30,30,30,30,30,30,30,30 Learning Limit for AP,360,360,360,390,390,390,420
For each AP you can get 10*3=30 Learning limit.
For each FP you can get 30 Learning limit.
First AP gives zero Learning Limit.
You start with lvl 1 and need 5 sp more for each lvl to lvl up. (10 fro 3 lvl, 15 for 4...) - if nothing changes on higher levels.
I started with 2-4-3-2-4-3 AP character. Which gives 1*30+3*30+2*30+1*30+3*30+2*30=360 Learning Limit in total for AP.
You get 12 FP for creation and 1 FP at start, which gives you 13*30=390 Learning Limit for FP.
When you create character you get 210 (5 in each skill plus 120 for history choises) skill points already learned but you get no lvls from them.
Seems like i did little mistake for 30 skill points somewhere - cant find
but main idea shoud be right.So at lvl 24 my character should have 1440 Learning Limit in total, but to lvl up it needs 1500 skill points.
From this 24 lvls I can get only 7 AP in addition to what i had on start. So highest attribute i could get is 7+4=11.
5 Focus Points gives you only 150 Learning Limit. So you need 280-150=130 learning limit from attributes. Or 14 points in corresponding attribute.
So my character wasn't able to get any of lvl 275 talets from the start. Game over %) The only way to get one of those is to create character with at least 7 lvls in corresponding attribute and spend all additional attributes only in that stat. (It is possible to start with 8 AP in one stat character, but you still only limited to focus on skills that are connected to one attribute). And if you want to max two skills from different attributes? Not possible!
So, main problems i want to point:
- Lots of talents like +3% to speed/damage? We get speed and damage from leveling skill, talets should be more interesting.
- You have to create "focused" character with at least 7 AP and spend all additional AP in that stat to be able to get lvl 275 talent. Thats not abvoius at start.
- You can't focus on two skills from different attributes. Even with 8 AP start, you will have only 1 free AP for other stats. (If my math about max lvl is right).
- Also if you want to focus only on One Handed, you still "waste" you AP learning limit for 2H and Polearms. It is more frustrating when you try to focus on Steward, without Medicine and Engeneering for example.
- As Clan Leader you probably want to focus on social (leadership/trade) as you can assign Quartermaster, Surgeon, Engeneer and Scout roles to your companions. You still be able to get 160 skill in martial skills. Or you shoul focus on battle skills and stuck on 160 +- with other skills.
- "Legendary Smith" talent? rly?) At 24 lvl I could only be able to have 290 Learning Limit, 300 at lvl 25. If i put all AP into endurance - which is not best choice. Probably it should start work from 275 lvl smithing?
- You will be able to get only as high as 160 skill on other skills (5 FP + 2 AP) in 12 skills of you want to focus on one skill.
- Skill training inflation. There is much harder to lvl smth from 200 to 201, but you still get 1 skill point counted to your lvl as of you lvl some skill from 5 to 6.
So, my suggestions:
- As it was mentioned many times, system need some tunes in training speed of some skills and total reballance in perks.
- Remove Learning Limit from attribute points. Attribute points should give you better skill learning speed plus passive bonuses (I really like ideas about stats in quote below). It feels more natural - more strong or agile learns faster with melee or ranged skills.
- Remove learning speed from focus points. Each FP shoud give +60 learning limit. So at 5 FP you get 300 learning limit. But you need to think about how mich FP will be availible to character at max lvl if it would be hard capped.
- Skill training inflation. Game forces you to lvl skillls that are low, because it's easier and you need quantity, not quality to lvl up. I like how somewhat similar system realized at Tyranny. Character has XP there. When you lvl up your skill, you get part of XP for that lvl of skill added to your character XP. So to lvl high lvl skills is as profitable as low lvl skills. Also you can reward player with XP for quests/battles in addition to XP from skill ups.
- After this changes some tunes should be done at FP availible to prevent creating ultimate characters. It is 18 skills in game and to be able max 3-5 of them looks ok. But I want to have choice what to max and be able to do that, not limited to skills in one attribute tree.
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It was mentioned on the previous page, but I'll repeat it here: learning limit is not a hard cap. It is a soft cap, after which your XP multiplier for that skill is reduced significantly. You can continue to level the skill, just at a much slower rate. Steward is perhaps the eaisest skill to test this with, as it quickly levels up on its own when you have some troops and a variety of food. You can also verify this by reaching your skill cap for a skill & selecting it on the character page. Directly above the Add Focus Point button is the current multiplier for XP gains on that skill. Even at the cap this multiplier will not be 0.
That said, the system definitely needs some work. It takes too long to level skills to match the AI, and the differences between high and low values in combat skills are so dramatic that it's more sad than funny wondering how it got through internal testing.
That said, the system definitely needs some work. It takes too long to level skills to match the AI, and the differences between high and low values in combat skills are so dramatic that it's more sad than funny wondering how it got through internal testing.
Aelender
Veteran
The new system needs a lot of work and tweaks, but anything is better then having to essentially lock in 3 INT companions, 1 AGI companion, and the rest STR companions. How you mixed your followers may differ (I personally went with more INT monkeys for the training), but there was no flexibility in how you leveled them, you just picked the one and only stat you were going to level on a char/companion and that was it. The old system did not allow for 'splitting' up stats (unless you were intent on leveling people well past 30). As broken as the new system currently may be, I struggle to find a reasonable argument for why the old system was 'better'.
New system needs a LOT of work to be sure, much balancing needed for rate/growth/viability of skills (I think the snowball factor exacerbates much of the problem, when the game is essentially 'over' in a year or two), but ultimately it won't take much to be an improvement over the lack of variability in warband.
New system needs a LOT of work to be sure, much balancing needed for rate/growth/viability of skills (I think the snowball factor exacerbates much of the problem, when the game is essentially 'over' in a year or two), but ultimately it won't take much to be an improvement over the lack of variability in warband.
One in-game year is 80 in-game days.
I have about 30 hours of play time, and almost 300 days total.
300 days = 3,75 years.
That makes it about 8 hours per year, at least for me. Which would mean about 80h of play time until your character turns just 40 years old.
Also, some people think time passes way too fast. This is a perfect example of how you can't please everyone, and Talewords should just do what they want, and follow their vision.
This system especially fits the RPG style. It did in KCD, this just needs improvements and adjustments.
Proficiencies should improve on their own. Not by simply giving it a "point". You develop your character by actually doing it in the first place. Want to become an expert archer? Grab a bow and practice. Want to lead armies? Lead smal sized armies first. Thats how it should be and how it is right now. That is how an hardcore RPG should be. It was terrible in Warband, you kill hundreds with bow and raise your trade skill... yeah...
Every new character begins under similar circumstances, so it wont make difference you replay the game after completing it. New character = same grinding. Just take a different approach to certain things to avoid "sameness". It was worse in Warband, especially the early game. We all did same ***** things for 10 years, just admit it.
Yeah and thats how it is right now man, If you want to improve in certain stuff, just start doing it.
DryIce41
Recruit
Yes. New system has good bones. I agree, remove the cap, make upper tier perks reasonably attainable, increase ways to learn skills, and increase learning rate.
Ted Striker
Veteran
It never made sense to be able to increase your bow skill by using a sword all the time, or increase your trade skill through combat, or riding skill by running around on foot. In Warband my character would usually start out as a foot archer and by doing that all the time somehow would become a master rider.
Bannerlord has a much more intuitive system. Learning by doing is great. It just needs tweaking and balancing, like for instance the difficulty of increasing Charm or Leadership, or that terrible Smithing stamina mechanic. It's not a perfect system yet.
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