Where are the strong female heroines?

[Kentucky 『 ＨＥＩＧＵＩ 』 James]

I've seen this exact thread 4 times before this, and it always boils down to people who don't like the idea of imposing modern gender equality ideals onto premodernity, but then take it to an anti-intellectual extreme and deny historical consensus on something as harmless as the idea that there were women in some societies who sometimes fought.

 

[Orion]

I know the measuring technique is the same, because it's right. That said, I feel like something is being lost in translation here. Once a shooter's draw length is measured, then a bow of appropriate size is found for them. If a shooter's bow is too large, then they cannot fully draw it because they are limited by the size of their own body. If it is too short, it can be difficult to maintain consistent forward pressure on the bow with your bow arm because you have to bend it, and thus accuracy will suffer. I'm not saying that the type of bow you're using determines how long your own draw length is, I'm saying that bows come in different sizes to accommodate different draw lengths. Bigger bows are made to accommodate longer draw lengths for all styles of bows. You've said as much yourself, so it seems to me now that we're just coming to the same conclusion from different directions:

Wrong. Size of the archer determines draw length, which then determines size of the bow (inside it's type, longbow for the same draw length will be different size then Japanese bow for the same draw length which will be different size then Mongol recurve bow for the same draw length).

However, draw length for kyudo is not the same as draw length for western archery styles. Do you see where western archers reach full draw, and how it is measured? It's typically to a point on their jaw. Some shooters even draw to a point on their chin (commonly in Olympic archery, but also in Mongolian styles). Kyudo practitioners draw past their ear. Given a western bow, they would draw to a point on their jaw. Same archer, but different draw length for a different bow style & shooting technique.

My original point was also that bows of different heights have different string angles from the nock point when drawn, which is visible in the composite image you have provided. Longer bows have greater string angle from the nock point when drawn, and thus cover more of the chest area. Combined with a greater draw length as in kyudo, this means the string must pass over a much greater area of the chest when firing. Hence, kyudo chest guards cover the left and right sides of the chest.

 

[Mad Vader]

I've seen this exact thread 4 times before this, and it always boils down to people who don't like the idea of imposing modern gender equality ideals onto premodernity, but then take it to an anti-intellectual extreme and deny historical consensus on something as harmless as the idea that there were women in some societies who sometimes fought.

That level of effort (and the necessary intellectual dishonesty to go to extreme ends) points to a rather strong, activist motivation. You can even guess the nation.

 

[hruza]

Again, you are assuming they would compare the arms of non-mutilated vs mutilated and reach that conclusion, but we don't know what beliefs they held. I'm open-minded, which I think is important when approaching history. You on the other hand reject the existence of warrior women completely.

I couldn't care less about existence of warrior women. I am am not political correctness warrior. What I care about is history, the real one that actually existed, instead of gender or other agenda driven caricature. What I care about is that the real history don't gets misinterpreted in the culture, of which computer games are very much part of. And I don't buy in to "it's just an entertainment".  It's not. Whether it's intention of developers or not, their product is educating generation of the young people that believe in all sorts of nonsense as a result. Same with film industry which is guilty of this for much longer time. It ends with what you could see during last Olympic Games in Britain when British history representation was screwed on a institutional basis.

Now I don't think that MB is the worst offender here, quit the opposite, they did fairly good job of representing medieval society so far, when compared to some other games or films. But I definitely want that to stay that way and developers not to lower their standards. Better yet to improve them. Historical realism should remain one of the important attributes of the game and developers should know that's what their players appreciate. I do and many others clearly do as well.

Sure archeological evidence is up to interpretation, but you weren't the one studying the finds.

Yes it is, but you can't change interpretation for evidence and facts.

The particular women mentioned in the article had injuries etc. that were typical of battle. Now we could hypothesise that these were women slain by another Scythian tribe etc. and buried with weapons, however,

Or you can hypothesize that these were women warriors, as you do. That's the point. It's a speculation, not conclusive evidence. Could these women die fighting? Yes, but so they could have being slaughtered in a yurt by the raiders.

that doesn't explain why other women were buried without weapons or more typical male attire.

Why not? Many men were buried without weapons as well. Again, that means nothing and anything. It can mean that they were not part of the aristocracy. Or were of the class that was forbidden to carry weapons, say priests, or unfree class. Or those that buried them simply got greedy and decided not to bury weapons with them. And this is not just my opinion, this is opinion of many professional historians, one of whom I have quoted already.

I reject the Greek legend of the Amazons. However, I do not reject the existence of Scythian female warriors that inspired it. Big difference.

That's your opinion to which you are entitled. But when you are arguing about it, you need to back that up with some evidence. Weapon burials or presence of wounds are not conclusive evidence -as you just said yourself, it's open to interpretation.

My observation is, that you are narrow-minded and completely against the possibility of women being in battle. You are presented with evidence for Scythian warrior women, yet find any explanation that would make them non-combatants. Instead of saying 'yes being buried with weapons and wounds may support the existence of female warriors' you instead say 'it means nothing'... way to be unbiased.

I don't care what's your observation about me. I am not a SNIP and this is not high school sorority forum. I only care about arguments, facts and evidence you can bring to the discussion.

 

[Ruthven]

And I don't buy in to "it's just an entertainment".  It's not. Whether it's intention of developers or not, their product is educating generation of the young people that believe in all sorts of nonsense as a result. Same with film industry which is guilty of this for much longer time.

If this were true at all, then the existence of warrior women would be the LEAST of your concerns by far in this game. I wonder if you have some kind of bias here...

I don't care what's your observation about me. I am not a SNIP and this is not high school sorority forum.

i n t e r e s t i n g 

and developers should know that's what their players appreciate. I do and many others clearly do as well.

Players appreciate representation more than (extremely selectively applied) historical accuracy. As far as I can tell we all agree Taleworlds found a good solution, so what is even the point of this thread?

 

[Orion]

I don't care what's your observation about me. I am not a SNIP and this is not high school sorority forum. I only care about arguments, facts and evidence you can bring to the discussion.

Women don't have a monopoly on personality complexes, but being so particular in associating a gender to a mental disorder isn't going to convince anyone that you're coming from a position of genuine historical accuracy. You've toed this line before in this thread, and as a moderator I am telling you that this will not fly. Cut it out.

 

[Lord Brutus]

So, where are the strong female heroines?  Did we ever decide that?

 

[Rhugar]

So, where are the strong female heroines?  Did we ever decide that?

Not quite sure. But where ever they are, they may or may not be wearing leather chest rigs to shoot bows at the same effeciency. I think xD

 

[Noudelle]

So, where are the strong female heroines?  Did we ever decide that?

Nowhere to be found in human history apparently.

 

[Roccoflipside]

So, where are the strong female heroines?  Did we ever decide that?

Nowhere to be found in human history apparently.

I'm trying to figure out where the strong male heroines are. That sounds more interesting to me.

 

[Mad Vader]

So, where are the strong female heroines?  Did we ever decide that?

They are in my bed, strongly demanding breakfast.

Spoiler

It's a cat.

 

[Count Delinard]

While I'm always for fostering activity, indeed this thread has reached a point in which it no longer serves any meaningful purpose, the OP has also requested it to be locked as her original point was answered.

We did learn a thing or two about archery though