Wheel of Time

[Wellenbrecher]

Yeah.
Spoilers, obviously.

Spoiler: the bragging

"[...]What did you do to your hand by the way?"
"What did you do to your eye?"
"A little accident with a corkscrew and thirteen angry innkeepers. The hand?"
"Lost it capturing one of the Forsaken."
"Capturing?" Mat said. "You're growing soft."
Rand snorted. "Tell me you've done better."
"I killed a gholam," Mat said.
"I freed Illian from Sammael."
"I married the Empress of the Seanchan."
"Mat," Rand said, "are you really trying to get into a bragging contest with the Dragon Reborn?" He paused for a moment. "Besides, I cleansed saidin. I win."
[...]
"Sure," Mat said. "By the way, I saved Moraine. Chew on that as you try to decide which of the two of us is winning."
Mat followed Tuon, and behind him rose the laughter of the Dragon Reborn.

Such a beautiful chapter.

 

[Vieira151]

 

[Vissy]

That was an awesome chapter.

 

[Wellenbrecher]

Probably minor spoilers for Memory of Light ahead.

Ah Mat, never change:
Galad got new orders via raken during the last battle.

[the orders]
P.S. If you ever see any Trollocs with quarterstaffs, I suggest you let Golever fight them instead, as I know you have trouble with those types.
Mat
Galad sighed, showing the letter to Golever. The cipher authenticated it; the number twenty-two and the word "quarterstaff" were paired.

/edit
I have no doubt that the actual battle part was written by Sanderson. There's too much actual, in-detail fighting going on for this to be otherwise and there's stuff happening all the time.
But Rand's... duel must've been Jordan himself.
Rambling on and on and on about nothing, nothing and more nothing, sprinkled with a light but noticeable and annoying layer of "Jordan's Rand"'s usual whining about useless bull****. Bah.

 

[Vieira151]

As far as I'm aware, it was not. Sanderson talked a lot about how he approached the duel between Rand.

EDIT:

Spoiler: Book 14 Spoilers

Brandon on the notes:

QUESTION
Was it up to you to decide what the Dark One actually was? The revelation that the Dark One was a concept or idea rather than a person reminded me very much of Ruin from the The Hero of Ages. How did you make that decision?

BRANDON SANDERSON
I was left a lot of freedom on how to do that specific thing, and earlier in the first draft he wasn't so much like that. We felt the conflict wasn't working—it felt more like the Last Conversation than the Last Battle. Harriet sent back direction for something stronger. The revision included the dueling of possibilities. That is where the Dark One became more involved and so it evolved into that, but we weren't following anything specific Jim had said.

It's really hard at this point for me to even sometimes remember, because I've been working on it for five years now. But, a lot of the big touchstone moments, he had mentioned in his notes. Now, when I mention the notes, we have the 32,000 pages, that is obviously too much to work with. And most of that was notes for previous novels. The assistants came up with 200 pages for me, that were focused on this book. That became the core of what I worked with to make these three novels, or this book, because it's still kind of one book in my head.

And of those 200 pages, there were about a hundred pages of actual written material that he'd done. And about a hundred pages of Q&As with his assistants regarding scenes that needed to be written, or where characters needed to end up and things like that.

I would say in a given scene, there's me and there's Robert Jordan in basically everything. But, if you want something a little more specific, in Gathering Storm, Egwene's plot line, he had a lot done for. For Rand's plot line, it was more me. For Towers of Midnight, Mat's plot line he'd done a lot on, Perrin's plot line was more me. And for the last book, the beginning and the end, he'd done a lot of work on, and the middle was more me.

And if you are interested, Wellenbeeker:

QUESTION
Robert Jordan...did he lay out all the war tactics for you, because he is a war historian, or was...

BRANDON SANDERSON
Actually, David, no he didn't; he didn't have an opportunity to do that. He indicated that it was supposed to be a big, long battle for the last book—basically all battle—but he didn't give us much of the tactics. There are a few things that he put in there, that he told us to do. But what we did is, we went to several experts that Harriet knows, and asked them for suggestions, and then we relied on Alan Romanczuk, who is part of Team Jordan, and we had him outline the battle tactics, which I then used to tell the story.

 

[Wellenbrecher]

Wow, I genuinely would've expected the duel to be fully Jordan.
It fits his style in previous books to the letter.

But good to see I wasn't off with the actual battle


And yeah, I've seen that similarity to Ruin as well. It's a bit weird at times, really. Some of the phrases are so similar and all.

 

[Jec94227]

I think my favorite part of that book was

Spoiler

Lan dueling Demandred, because the whole time Demandred is just demanding to know who Lan is and all he says is "I'm the man who is going to kill you"

 

[Wellenbrecher]

Aaaaaaaaand done.
And it was... weird? Was that swap planned? Did they expect it? Was it just something that happened? Why? It just felt so incredibly random.
I would've loved a proper explanation as to the connection between Rand and Moridin as well, by the way.
Also "help him die" my ass.

Lastly, a hearty lol at all those utterly shell-shocked, PTSD'ed survivors straight up celebrating amongst the hundreds of thousands of mangled, burned and butchered bodies of their comrades and enemies.



The book dragged on for longer than it really needed to, in parts the "duel" was beyond annoying and there was too much deus ex machina, but I still really liked it.
Lotsa really good moments, few **** ones.
Good that it's over to be honest. Close to eight months (started in September oO) and fourteen books is long enough.

With that said:
Time to go back to the Malazan universe, which is to say Esslemont's "Assail", the 18th book in that universe for me.


/edit
Lest I forget:
Bela :c
And lol @ Cadsuane.

 

[Vieira151]

Spoiler: Spoilered response to Wellenbeeker

Bela :c
Rhuarc :c

See, I don't think there was a huge amount of deus ex machina. Nearly everything, unless added by Branderson, was foreshadowed at some point by Jordan. I can guarantee it. Including the body swap. People had been theorising that that would happen for years and years.

Should be noted that the 'help him die' was what main interpreted her viewings as, and even she sometimes cannot interpret her viewings well. Plus, there is probably some.metaphorical way she 'helped him die'.

I assume you agree with me that the battle could and probably should have been shortened and other plot points could have been resolved/expanded upon?

Brigitte being awesome, too.

 

[Vermillion_Hawk]

I would've loved a proper explanation as to the connection between Rand and Moridin as well, by the way.

Spoiler

He was the Dark One's direct response to the Dragon Reborn in the Pattern (or some such thing), he's supposed to be Rand's opposite in every way, and moreover as Ishamael/Ba'alzamon (or however you spell that, it's been a while) he linked himself directly with Rand through the wound he inflicted in the second book.

Time to go back to the Malazan universe, which is to say Esslemont's "Assail", the 18th book in that universe for me.

Spoiler

If you haven't read/finished it yet, prepare to be disappointed.

 

[Wellenbrecher]

I remember you posting about it before, yeah. But for now I just enjoy the fact that there isn't a single whiny piss-pot hick from nowhere pondering why the world is so unfair.
Well, there is Silverfox, but even there stuff actually happens between her whining.

As for the Moridin thing you two mentioned:
Yeah, I gathered that much. It had been alluded to before.
But come on, the switch was ridiculous!

Re: Deus ex machima
That doesn't change anything, Vieria, IMO. I mean it means I used the wrong expression but it's still:
"yeah lemme do this random thing and whoops! It works because prophecy."
"Oh no, I dunno what to do, whoops, prophecy, I did it."
Stuff like that irks me.

I agree about the battles. It was too much in the end.

And I'm saying that it was a piss-poor interpretation of the viewing.

 

[Vieira151]

Yeah. Thing is, Jordan create an in-universe mechanism for deus ex machina way early in the series. It shouldn't have really come as unexpected - as ta'veren, Mat, Rand and Perrin are practically subjected to deus ex machina constantly. It's clearly intended as a plot device, but I'm not saying it's a good thing. 

Foreshadowing plays a humungous part of his writing, and it's why a lot of people get a huge amount of enjoyment out of rereading. Not saying you should - I'm only 4 books into my first reread. But yeah. It's not necessarily prophecy that dictates events (viewings, ta'veren and obviousness plays parts too) all the time, but I understand you.

I should note that the whole Hinderstap thing was a Brandon/Harriet invention. Other random things were a little off putting too. To be honest, i'm more annoyed that Moiraine was brought back, did one thing of importance and then just played a side role (though Brandon acknowledges this, apparently).

Yeah, there is only so much, "...and he stabbed the Trolloc in the eye, turned on his heels and slices across another's throat!" you can have in one book.

Oh, I thought you were annoyed at the viewing, rather than her interpretation. 

I'm curious about a few things:

What did you think of Demandred's Duels? In fact, what did you think about Demandred and the people from SPOILER?
What was your view of Fain's story? (I read a cool thing about this that kind of changed my view of it)
Androl and Pevara. Thoughs on Androl as a BrandonCreation and their relationship?

 

[Wellenbrecher]

Oh yeah, this was something I wanted to write about anyway. I don't really see your problem with Androl, yeah it was weird to giver a new character that much time, but he fit in like one of the old cast. Guess that made it even more jarring though, if anything, if one was already irritated by him
And the Androl-Pevara story was nice, the more non-atrocious Aes Sedai the better.

Fain was just there all the time. I have no strong feelings either way.
His end felt shoved in and anticlimactic though, especially after all the build-up, but at that point it was six in the morning and I just wanted to get it over with.

Demandred was silly.
The description of what he did during the whole battle simply did not fit with what was going on. Like, if what he did was really THAT devastating and he kept doing it, the battle should've been over more or less right away. So why wasn't it? Oh yeah, 750 more pages to go.
And even though Mat kept saying how subtle and good of a commander he is, all we really see is a rambling, screaming, self-righteous, egotistical moron. When did he actually do all that subtle, clever manoeuvring? If he was in such large circle, why not just blast the whole area of the command post to get what he wants?
His end was weird, didn't expect that person to get him and it felt a bit shoved in to tie up loose ends. The duels themselves were just something that happened, kinda like Fain.



And I get the ta'veren bit. But using that in such a way that they magically can do random stuff that helps them in that specific instance and then never again is just silly.
With Rand it's sorta acceptable given his... condition. But come on...
That being said, what sorta Übermenschen does the Two Rivers breed, that two utterly untrained yokels are two of the most deadliest soldiers in the history of ever? Perrin and Mat that is. Again, Rand can be excused. And at least he has to learn the sword for a good while.
Yeah, having some quarterstaff training with your (equally yokel, never-left-home) dad or the strength of a smith is one thing, specifically learning to fight and kill and doing it for years another altogether.

 

[Vieira151]

Androl&Pevara: I thought it was a good story. Some of the whole One Power things they were doing felt a little awkward to me, but yeah. I liked Pevara as a character too. I was just annoyed that other characters weren't as present as he was, but it was someone forgiveable because of how decent the story was.

If you want to read the theory, somebody on reddit posted it. It's actually a couple of individual peoples ideas, and it's quite interesting. Here

Spoiler

An interesting concept. I hadn't considered the idea of Fain as Mat's nemesis. I had always thought of Fain as a wild card.
But that makes sense.
Yes, Rand and Elan Morin are linked souls. That has been apparent since at least Book 2 ("I win again, Lews Therin!"). Elan/Ishamael/Moridin is the Shadow's Dragon - Shai'tan's Nae'blis. They are opposite in a number of ways.
Slayer was always presented as Perrin's personal nemesis. There are a number of inverse parallels between them. Where Perrin fears losing himself to the Wolf, Slayer embraces his dual nature as both Luc and Isam. Where Perrin struggles to master control of the TAR, Slayer dominates it. Perrin's greatest mistake in TAR, nearly killing the deer when leading the hunt, is Slayer's greatest joy. Where Perrin laments killing, Slayer revels in it.
I had never thought of how Fain has the same parallels to Mat, but it makes sense. Fain, rather than being an embodiment of Fortune, is the embodiment of Misfortune. The man, the darkfriend, the Peddler, has the worst luck in the world. The terrible things that happen to him reflect the good things that happen to Mat, after a fashion. Where Mat has the holes in his memory filled by memories of battles, Fain's mind is pushed aside by Mordeth/Mashadar, and eventually Machin Shin. Mat is overcome but in control, where Fain is aware but completely dominated by the evil essences within him. His death was destined to be so anticlimactic.
An interest way to look at it.

I'd just kind of like to explain the Mat/Fain duality a bit better. I think you explained Fain pretty well in the fact that he causes chaos. More specifically he causes chaos out of order. In places where there was order before he turns everything on its head and makes things start spinning out of control.
Mat on the other hand does exactly the opposite. Chance, especially dice, is entirely random and is the very nature of chaos. There is no way to predict an outcome because that's what chaos is. Mat takes chaos and turns it into order. He does this subconsciously as he can't know what it is that he does but whenever he does it he takes a chaotic situation and the outcome always lands in his favor, even if it's not readily apparent (Losing a die roll to keep people from stabbing him is a good example). Cards have less of a random aspect to them and he self admittedly has less luck when playing cards so in situations that have less chaos associated with them he has less control of being able to order the event.
I thank you for this theory, I'd already realized the connection between Perrin and Slayer but I hadn't thought about how Fain/Mat were polar opposites as well. It makes sense since this series is very centered around duality and this makes very good sense.

Another way to look at it, is that over the course of the series, Fain became less and less of a player, less of an important person. The only person that thought he was important in the grand scheme of things was Fain himself. So it kind of made sense to make his death rather... anticlimactic.

Demandred could have been handled much better. His entrance was fantastic and it was something I expected as soon as I was told about the gates that opened. But I mean, I think that was a problem with the book in general - everyone was saying how clever and tactically astute all these generals and people are, and the things that happened didn't really reflect it. A lot of the tactical moves used by ALL of them, was pretty dumb at points. It's something a fair amount of people picked up on on some WoT forums, and it was quite noticeable. I think Branderson tried to play up his need to fight Rand one on one a little too much. It just made Demandred seem stupid. He was clearly meant to be crazy and a little delusional, but I don't think he was ever supposed to be this... stupid.

What I'm trying to say is that, Branderson was better at writing the fighting, but I think Jordan was better at detailing the tactics. If they were mixed together it would have been fantastic (hopefully).

A lot of fans suspected the duels were really just fan service - there had been debates for years over who was the best swordsman in the series. And what better way to let everyone know than to do what he did. 

Yeah. It is silly. I kind of like it. 

Ahahaha that again I think is to do with Ta'veren. If they were never going to be ta'veren, they likely would have been standard inbred yokels. Being ta'veren also gave them the benefit of the doubt - the pattern NEEDED them, so they all improved their skills much faster. Also know as plot armour.
There's also a lot attributed to the "old blood", as it were. Lots of the farmers in the Two Rivers turned out to be very capable hunters or longbowmen. You know, Manetheren etc etc yaddayadda 

If you are interested in any little tidbits and spoilery trivia you might have not noticed: Stuff

 

[Amagic]

I thought Mat got most of his fighting skills from those memories he got.

 

[Wellenbrecher]

Did he?
When he beats up Galand and Gawyn in the White Tower he says he learned his skill with the quarterstaff from his father.
Not talking about being a general.

 

[Delora Filth]

I trhink he had some initial skill. And Galad and Gawyn were only trained in sword dueling, and massively underestimated him due to his low birth. So it figures they'd be at a disadvantage against someone with a longer, faster weapon who had trained in fighting multiple opponents. But the überskills he shows later on, like taking on that gang of twenty or something guys in Maderin I'm fairly sure came from an amalgamation of the fighting skills of each man whose memories he got.

 

[Varalir]

Just started reading. More than ten books is great! I found the series while trying to look for more Forgotten realms books but stumbled on the first Wheel of Time. Didn't like the description but I was hooked from the start. I really love the "Farmboy who gets pushed into being a hero" type stories.

 

[Wellenbrecher]

Just started reading. More than ten books is great!

Well speak again when you're nine books in.

On a more serious note:
Enjoy the journey. Please share them here, now that I'm through with it I am quite interested to see my rambling and raging from an outside perspective.

 

[Vissy]

It's really a world of its own to fall into. I picked up the first book about 10 hours before a morning flight, and stayed up reading until I had to leave. The atmosphere is perfect.