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Rujasu

Archduke
M&BWBWF&S
I have the stupidest idea in my head about a forum game where combat is simulated in Morrowind. Another one of those "lots of setup work for a product of questionable value"-ideas, but simulating **** is fun.
 

Nodice83

Knight
WBWF&SNWVC
I thought Poland had a very tightly knit, and mostly favourable history with Jewish people.
Tightly knit - true. Favorable? Not quite, at least it is questionable. From 14th to 17th century indeed it was was the golden age and both groups lived together and worked in relative peace and harmony. Poland or rather the Polish - Lithuanian Commonwealth (which in fact was a huge multicultural concept) collapsed in the 18th Century which led to many divisions both on ethnic and economic fields. At that time anti-semitism has become the thing in Poland. Poles wanted to fight for independence but Jews minded their own business (it is partly true as some of the freedom fighters were of Jewish origin) and didn't want to meddle. Long story short - antisemitism reached its peak after Poland regained its independence in 1918-1921 and lasted until the war. 2nd WW just antagonized both nations even more. Poland was the main 'theatre' of the holocaust or shoah as Jews call it. Even though Poland did not collaborate with Nazis some Poles were eager to help in solving the 'problem'. Pogroms happened. Many Poles saved jews but many made their life even more miserable. Jews were mostly expelled from Poland in the late '60s through some communist manifesto - since that time there is almost no Jew diaspora in Poland. Many Jews hate Poles because they think we as their neighbors abandoned them entirely. Some Poles hate jews because they were told to do so.

A lot of oversimplification in this painful topic but that is how it goes.

Dialog has been started some time ago and if the politicians will not interfere - there is a chance we may again have our relationship normalized.
 
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kurczak

Section Moderator
WB
Normalizing relations you say?

*a random Israeli politician appears and uses the phrase "Polish death camps" 278 times in a five-minute interview"*

nothing personnel, kid
 

Nodice83

Knight
WBWF&SNWVC
Normalizing relations you say?

*a random Israeli politician appears and uses the phrase "Polish death camps" 278 times in a five-minute interview"*

nothing personnel, kid
Have the luck to know quite a few Israeli people and my wife works for an Israeli company. They seem to not give a **** about their own politicians saying this all over again. Same way as polish domestic politicians use LGBTQ and Islam and I don't give a **** either. I believe that notion is something that the average polish person should NOT spend a second thinking about - so never felt that was something personal.

By the way... @kurczak How do you feel ? :smile:
 
relationship-map-Europe.png
You can take solace in that at least Slovaks are more racist than you.

I think the main thing this shows is "is it socially acceptable to be publicly racist to X group" rather than what the person thinks in their head. All my my 3 white uncles faced a lot of sly, closed-doors opposition to their marriages (in the late 90s and 2000s). Councils and other institutions in the UK are still shockingly racist. They would never admit it of course, but on the other hand everyone east of Berlin is all too happy to tell you how much they hate X or Y group.

I think there is a kind of strange dialectic (at least outside America) with racist beliefs in the public and private sphere. There are so many different real examples of openly racist families suddenly accepting some black or Muslim or whatever fiancé, because the absurd, explicit racist stereotype in their head is so easy to break. Behave like a normal polite human being and they will literally throw their daughters at you. Meanwhile you are never going to dent the complex, completely internal racism of a Scandinavian or an Anglo, which they spend a lot of time trying to convince themselves they don't have.
 

Nodice83

Knight
WBWF&SNWVC
There are so many different real examples of openly racist families suddenly accepting some black or Muslim or whatever fiancé, because the absurd, explicit racist stereotype in their head is so easy to break. Behave like a normal polite human being and they will literally throw their daughters at you.
I think this will work only if you have had a chance to meet people outside of your 'cultural bloc' to simply see for yourself. I have an impression that some people (especially those living their lives in ubiquitous uniform environments) are afraid of this first contact and won't be willing to try.
but on the other hand everyone east of Berlin is all too happy to tell you how much they hate X or Y group.
That's an interesting thought. I am truly curious what you mean by that.
 

Nega-Brutus

Sergeant at Arms
@Kentucky 『 HEIGUI 』 James I never thought of it but I think you're right insofar as I understand you.

It doesn't sit well with me that you're guilty until proven innocent/white enough. It makes me sympathize with the American, black, urban counter-culture a lot because, unlike with Muslims in Europe perhaps, 'the promise of liberalism' is something that's deeply rooted in the black identity, and it's something that I relate a lot to. It's been very formative to how society is interpreted and how the promise is never kept. It's some mix of aspiration, resentment, sadness, hope, etc.
 
I think this will work only if you have had a chance to meet people outside of your 'cultural bloc' to simply see for yourself. I have an impression that some people (especially those living their lives in ubiquitous uniform environments) are afraid of this first contact and won't be willing to try.

When I went to rural (i mean remote villages on the tops of mountain ranges) china in 2014, initially people were pretty rude but within a few days they were saying "I love you" and some of the grandmas would stalk me to give me food. (This was like an NGO trip thing organised by a chinese development company after the earthquake in sichuan. None of the white people on the trip were treated remotely as well) Second time I went to china, on my own this time, the village grandmas tried to convince a girl to marry me. Other black people I know who have gone to China have said the same thing, that there is an explicit and unconcealed racism that is easy to dissolve.

Conversely, in England there is a veiled awkwardness with every (middle class) white person I interact with. People cross the road to avoid you or ask "politely" where you're going, institutions treat you with suspicion, and often times are person or organisation's very noticeable attempts to avoid saying anything racist around you are more dehumanising than them just being explicit.
 

Nega-Brutus

Sergeant at Arms
Tbf, I think west Europeans are just brought up with implicit notions of "exceptionalism", "greaterness" and, well, "whiteness". People derive actual confidence and value from believing they're special. Having a significant part of your population be Muslim or black advocating for egalitarianism is some sort of threat to those aforementioned notions of "we're special; we deserve better". Whereas no one in East Europe or China feels this superiority as much as west Europeans. For them it feels more like "life is a *****; but we're all struggling so whatever".

Still, I'm like 90% sure the Chinese middle class is classist and racist as well, because we like to deceive ourselves that we're better than someone doing worse than us because something something bootstraps. Truly, humanity is a miserable species.

I think the awkwardness comes from the internalized racism, but the internalized racism comes from these superiority complexes. The complexes can't be let go though because they derive value and confidence from it. Although, I could he wrong. There must be myriads of things to consider to make it more hollistic, really.
 
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Nodice83

Knight
WBWF&SNWVC
Conversely, in England there is a veiled awkwardness with every (middle class) white person I interact with. People cross the road to avoid you or ask "politely" where you're going, institutions treat you with suspicion, and often times are person or organisation's very noticeable attempts to avoid saying anything racist around you are more dehumanising than them just being explicit.
Sounds a bit familiar. I have had mixed feelings after my 6 months of temporary work in the UK n 2006. This was actually the first time I traveled abroad. That was a cultural shock for me especially that Notts is an academic city so it was full of all kinds of different ethnicities. But even there... was something conservative, superior, unspoken even a bit cringy about the locals that I felt in almost every situation and conversation: at work, at some offices, bus stop, etc. I met people of all different sorts... Not all of them of course were like that. I was perfectly aware of my countrymen's 'mixed' reputation (strangely I only heard extremes such as 'your people work really hard' or 'band of thieves and drunkards', no middle ground). But God, how strange it was when the person looked trapped sometimes when I finally revealed where I come from. Later in my life, I met mostly highly educated people from the UK, and it was always a good experience.

Obviously, I don't know how it is to face this irrational skin color discrimination. I find it deeply embedded in the cultural pattern, self-esteem, education, and maybe a bit of understanding what are the real values. I think I might be overly critical of poles but I still don't really see the level of cohabitation widespread - I would like to experience if I'd be from Senegal, Kenya, etc. As a nation, we are very much reluctant to give someone from outside full credit. And even if you do earn some trust and some people will love you whatever your homeland is there will still be people consciously or subconsciously mocking you, questioning your status, discriminating, or even occasionally verbally abuse (however this is rare).

My kids play with some black kids of the same age at the nursery school. I have never heard anything from them about anybody's skin color so far. We never raised that topic as something worthy of special attention. I just hope future education and their equals won't spoil it. I sometimes hear parents whispering and shushing their kids, "don't say this word - this is rude" (means: they heard it somewhere).
 
Whereas no one in East Europe or China feels this superiority as much as west Europeans.

I don't know about Eastern Europeans, but Chinese people have a sense of superiority that is far beyond what any European feels. It's probably the last country on earth that still has an unironic, completely internalised concept of the foreign barbarian. it's one of the reasons policy wonks in America have so much trouble making sense of China, because it's the only country where people are prouder than West Europeans. Almost everyone in China, from Mao-era boomers to Xi-oomers knows that their country is going to lead and define the 21st century. It's not just "I think / hope this will happen", it's "I know it will".

I think if you had talked to Europeans in 1815 - 1914 they might have said the same thing.

And even if you do earn some trust and some people will love you whatever your homeland is there will still be people consciously or subconsciously mocking you, questioning your status, discriminating, or even occasionally verbally abuse

Yeah, this is really blatant if you're black. It often manifests itself as a kind of backhanded reverse, for example you see articles with self-important headlines like "black student gets 3 A Levels" or "black CEO changing the face of business" which is basically 1 step away from saying that black people are incapable of these things.

Personally I actually like this aspect of racism. Every white suburbanite thinks you're stupid, so you get to prove them wrong easily, and thanks to all these "black people lifting themselves out of poverty!!!!!" stories, all the success in your life is attributed directly to you and not to your family or society at large or whatever. The truth is that the area I live in and people I interact with daily aren't that racist to black people at all, so I get the best of both.
 

Nodice83

Knight
WBWF&SNWVC
Yeah, this is really blatant if you're black. It often manifests itself as a kind of backhanded reverse, for example you see articles with self-important headlines like "black student gets 3 A Levels" or "black CEO changing the face of business" which is basically 1 step away from saying that black people are incapable of these things.
Yup, this is so sensation-oriented, typical headlines nowadays. The "black" can be easily exchanged for "women", which I find equally disrespectful.
Personally I actually like this aspect of racism. Every white suburbanite thinks you're stupid, so you get to prove them wrong easily, and thanks to all these "black people lifting themselves out of poverty!!!!!" stories, all the success in your life is attributed directly to you and not to your family or society at large or whatever. The truth is that the area I live in and people I interact with daily aren't that racist to black people at all, so I get the best of both.
Knowing that all the people are usually alike I wonder sometimes if black people tend to feel superior. If there are groups that genuinely cultivate that concept? Not through the reactionism to oppression from the whites - I mean just because of true belief. Practicing racism is clearly dominated by white people who even tried to rationalize that in history by looking at the ideal body proportion (sic!). Have black people ever came up with equally preposterous ideas?
Yeah, I'm alright, thanks. Not even any morning sickness, the lack even spooked me a little, but it's all good. It just sucks that after the governor-mandated lockdown, I'm on a obgyn-mandated lockdown and lie-down.

Cool, good to hear that.
 

Nega-Brutus

Sergeant at Arms
I'm just not sure I believe that the Chinese flexing as much as they do comes from a genuine place of superiority.

For example, I watched this big budget Chinese movie with my friend some weeks back and it had these themes of the humble Chinese man standing up to the taller, mean American. Or at another moment, being acknowledged and respected by some other white man. These things feel like they really come from a place of an insecurity. I think the Chinese sense of superiority is very much "screaming at yourself that you're better until you believe it".
 

Adorno

Bedroom Assassin
Archduke
WBNWM&BVC
... for example you see articles with self-important headlines like "black student gets 3 A Levels" or "black CEO changing the face of business" which is basically 1 step away from saying that black people are incapable of these things.
To me it sounds more like it's objectively unsusual (why else write a story about it?), which would make the story underline that black people are in fact not incapable of achieving those things.
 
"Black/woman/gay does something aspirational" is necessary promotion of positive role models for disadvantaged groups (including TO the general public, to erode stereotypes). It's far fetched to take it as a sarcastic burn or back-handed congratulations, but if you look to be offended, it kind of works. Sad!
I keep seeing interviews where someone disadvantaged as a kid was inspired by such stories and then went on to become something. Many such cases!
 
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