Whatever happened to that darned old 4th amendment?

[scootar]

The patriot act allows the government to arrest people without giving a reason.
Liberty is slowly being warped into tyranny.

 

[pesja]

But there is the flaw in your logic. The guilty persons punish the innocent by robbing and murdering them, whereas in the situation AA described the worst thing that can happen to them is their phone sex being tapped by the government.

Yes but still, having people taping your phone, going trough your pockets/backpack and what not, that is also a punishment against the innocent individual. There's no doubt about which punishment is the worst, it is ofcourse the one the bankrobber get's away with. But we can't start weighting things against eachother like that. I'm having a bit of a problem expressing what I'm thikning here due to my bad english. But the way I see it, I rather keep as much of my freedom as possible and have a few bankrobbers and druglords running around  with the same amount of freedom. Than loosing some of mine, so that the goverment can take all of theirs.. Do you catch the train I'm on?

 

[Sir Devlyn]

Oh the Bill of Rights isn't valid any more, it's the enemy of freedom by hampering the fight against terrorism.

If you support the Bill of Rights, the terrorists have already won!

I can only hope that I get a chance to finish school before the government starts putting CCTV cameras in my shower.

I hope so too, they would get in the way of my cameras.

PS  You should use more soap when showering. 

I'd rather have 20 guilty people not punished, than one innocent person punished.

"That it is better 100 guilty Persons should escape than that one innocent Person should suffer, is a Maxim that has been long and generally approved."
- Benjamin Franklin

read also Voltaire and Blackstone
http://www.bartleby.com/73/953.html

 

[CrazyEyes]

The patriot act allows the government to arrest people without giving a reason.
Liberty is slowly being warped into tyranny.

Hey, they're just following the lead of Abe Lincoln.

Of course, Lincoln knew what the **** he was doing...

 

[Archonsod]

If there is a crime, then there ought to be seen to be a punishment; if the punishment can involve the actual perpetrator of the crime then this is a happy state of affairs, but it is not essential. - Havelock Vetinari.

 

[Astor]

Course, I wouldn't try carrying a backpack if you're a foreigner.

I don't think that's a problem on it's own. Combined with riding the bus or a tube train, however, probably doesn't rank high on the list of wise things to do post 7/7.

 

[scootar]

7/7?

 

[Astor]

7/7?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/July_7th_bombings

That should work now.

 

[scootar]

Dead link, but I know what you're talking about. I thought you meant 9/11. The rest of the world cares more about 7/7.

 

[MountainBlade]

The Supreme Court has, perhaps unknowingly, perhaps not, opened a loophole which may be used by various law enforcement agencies in this country to unreasonably search anyone they want. Afterwards, they can simply claim that they "thought he had a warrant" and get off scot free, without any penalties for their actions.

This. I don't think it's unknowingly either unless the judge is a right dumb****.

 

[Temujin]

In Belgium they've released about 20 dangerous criminals in one week due to information obtained by illegal searches not being properly classified by some clerks. I'm not sure what situation I'd rather have. <:l

that happened in gent. apparently they interpret the laws and procedures slightly looser there.

west flandres allways was backward with a country mentality so i'm not surprised

 

[Gculk]

The Supreme Court has, perhaps unknowingly, perhaps not, opened a loophole which may be used by various law enforcement agencies in this country to unreasonably search anyone they want. Afterwards, they can simply claim that they "thought he had a warrant" and get off scot free, without any penalties for their actions. I'm rather concerned and I think you should be too. I can only hope that I get a chance to finish school before the government starts putting CCTV cameras in my shower.

Only if they can prove that they thought he had a warrant.  What happened here was, in my opinion (and opinion is exactly what it comes down to, considering the ambiguity), perfectly legal.

 

[Deyshawn]

Dead link, but I know what you're talking about. I thought you meant 9/11. The rest of the world cares more about 7/7.

Why do you say that?  Each were tragic events, but after 9/11, there were 2,974 dead, 24 missing and presumed dead and countless injured (90 people from foreign countries).  After 7/7, there were 52 dead and around 500 wounded.  7/7 was a tragic event, but saying the rest of the world doesn't care about 9/11 is sheer ignorance.

My figures:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/September_11,_2001_attacks
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/July_7th_bombings

 

[scootar]

Dead link, but I know what you're talking about. I thought you meant 9/11. The rest of the world cares more about 7/7.

Why do you say that?  Each were tragic events, but after 9/11, there were 2,974 dead, 24 missing and presumed dead and countless injured (90 people from foreign countries).  After 7/7, there were 52 dead and around 500 wounded.  7/7 was a tragic event, but saying the rest of the world doesn't care about 9/11 is sheer ignorance.

My figures:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/September_11,_2001_attacks
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/July_7th_bombings

That was from an American point of view, here we still use 9/11 as the "tragic" event. Most Americans don't pay attention and the ones that do dwell on 9/11.

 

[Sir Devlyn]

scootar, do you live in the UK?

 

[scootar]

I have lived all over the place, but for the last years of my life I've been enjoying drunken American bliss.

 

[Sir Devlyn]

I have lived all over the place, but for the last years of my life I've been enjoying drunken American bliss.

OMG, you're a zombie?! 

 

[scootar]

American slang I guess, last years as in the last few years. We tend to cut words.

 

[maw]

Any of you legal scholars actually read the ruling? Particularly ArabArcher? Or read anything other than the gut-reactive snappy AP fountain-of-fair-and-balanced news report?

The persons of the US are still protected by illegal search and seizure. The particular challenge before the USSC was not that issue.

The action is question was a search and seizure not conducted illegally, by one done legally under a premise in error. Other rulings have confirmed it in the past - that when a law enforcement professional discovers something illegal in the course of conducting another investigation, they are obligated not to ignore that illegality.

In this case, the law enforcement acting in good faith and under the law, served a warrent, and in doing so discovered additional illegalities, and had to act. That the warrant was in error was immaterial, and separate from the case brought before the court. There is another venue to challenge a warrant in error, but the state has been protected by such errors in the past - again, if acting under the law and in good faith. It is when a deliberate fraud of a false warrant occurs used to target a person in order to effect an arrest for another purpose not yet discovered.

So the 4th Amendment remains, and this topic really is a non-issue. maw

 

[italiano]

You are aware the Britain has had its Civill Liberties eroded thanks to anti terrorism, right?

The important thing over here is the police cannot force you to do anything until you're charged. You're not even obliged to provide the police with your name and address unless you're arrested.

Course, I wouldn't try carrying a backpack if you're a foreigner.

I'd like to hope that they will confirm the identity next time they think about shooting someone on the street like a dog.

That was from an American point of view, here we still use 9/11 as the "tragic" event. Most Americans don't pay attention and the ones that do dwell on 9/11.

Some obviously don't, considering a fair few can't even remember the date of 9/11 . 9/11 is much more important to the majority of the world, if only because of the consequences.