What Realistic Changes Could be Made to Make 'Late Game' Less of a Dumpster Fire?

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stevepine

Knight at Arms
So right now Mount and Blade feels a little bit like a Charlie Sheen house party... it starts really well but always ends up with the escorts in tears and half of your friends arrested for possession of cocaine.

More seriously....

We all know that TW will never implement major changes to make late-game good. Like all of us know that they will never make a diplomacy system for Bannerlord with any depth....

So ok, what are the changes COULD Taleworlds make in order to improve end-game? (Maybe smaller changes that wouldn't require months of coding and fresh design?)

- What would be the 'easy wins'?
 
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FizCap

Regular
WB
Mods will take care of all of mount and blade's problems and it's been like that since warband. The one thing they need to improve on is the campaign AI as they are arbitrary in their decision making 99% of the time which includes starting wars, policies and who to give fiefs to. They need to add calculations for all of it instead of having it be on a coinflip which is just a barbaric way to have a game run.
 

stevepine

Knight at Arms
Mods will take care of all of mount and blade's problems and it's been like that since warband. The one thing they need to improve on is the campaign AI as they are arbitrary in their decision making 99% of the time which includes starting wars, policies and who to give fiefs to. They need to add calculations for all of it instead of having it be on a coinflip which is just a barbaric way to have a game run.
Yes, couldn't agree more... the random and rapidly changing cycle of war and peace just makes the game feel quite ridiculous.
 

froggyluv

Grandmaster Knight
NW
They need to order the entire Dev team including Armagan to do a full playthru of THe Last Days followed by a long deep meeting about how their game stacks up on any level

TLD does everything right. Its got intrigue of map areas, very interesting factions, takes notice of where you are on the world map at all times and you literally feel the difference, makes you care about allied factions that are starting to falter to the extent you'd drop anything your doing to go help, has a real sense of ownership of everything including regional troops -the more you hang out in one area the more likely that area will donate troops to your cause -leave that area for too long -they want them back.....the progression of the great war, the great cut scenes when the Great War begins, interesting unique parties like The Lone Rider zipping around, absolutely gorgeous scenes and they matter that you fully investigate to again gain regional political points.

In short -i never thought id go back to Warband gameplay -but TLD just does so many things just right it makes me want to play thru the entire campaign and i just got it less than a week ago. Ive owned Bannerlord since inception and have barely started my own Kingdom and couldnt care less about the Nertzzees Foly plot. Obviously LOTR has a deep deep lore to draw from but look at Pendor, they developed tremendous Lore from scratch. And really its not just the lore -its the very engaging gameplay mechanics TLD offers,
 

Ask

Sergeant
One of the simpler changes they could do right now is speed up the leveling of skills. You already have to invest 5 focus points and at least 7 attribute points to hit level 275 on a skill but so many of them take such an unreasonably long amount of time to level up that if you're not cheesing it or really going out of your way and stop playing in a natural way you'll never hit it.

I've always wanted 275 in medicine for the final perk but I've never had the heart to start trading wounded soldiers with my companion parties to speed up the process or do some cheesy siege stuff either.

Essentially, the cool end game perks are all locked behind the I-already-got-too-bored-to-keep-playing late game. And then you're supposed to do it all over again once your main character dies and you play as your heir? LOL! I've never even gotten far enough into a single campaign to play as my own heir, and I'm sure as hell not going through all the pain in the ass that is to level all those skills back up again. If we're supposed to play with our whole dynasties the leveling should be faster not slower.
 
If we're supposed to play with our whole dynasties the leveling should be faster not slower.
The game needs to be slower. Or at least feel slower, but that just won't do without some major additions given how precious little there is to do in the game anyway.
Well damn, you could say you're in a bit of a uuh.. in a bit of a.. what's the scientific term for it- oh right: up **** ****ing creek.
 

CrazyElf

Sergeant
We all know that TW will never implement major changes to make late-game good. Like all of us know that they will never make a diplomacy system for Bannerlord with any depth....

There would have to be some type of deep diplomacy and intrigue. Think elements of CK3, if you will.

Another major change that could be added in is more extensive city and empire building.
 

Shaxx

Squire
1.) Finishing the dynasty and clan generation/regeneration system so you can not easily break the game by chopping heads off and so that late game does not become depopulated by old age/random battle deaths. Also, the few NPC's that are generated have a tendency to be extraordinarily low skilled, low level and they do not level up very fast if at all.

2.) Fixing the pace of the game so that you have actually have a reason to even interact with the marriage/offspring system other than to steal their auto generated gear. Which is to say you need to age faster or time needs to progress faster or both.

3.) Actually balancing smithing with the rest of the game's methods of making money, it is just weird and out of place (still).

4.) The pace of battles is too fast, just increase armor by x1.75

None of these are that hard, it is mind boggling we are 12 years into development and these extraordinarily basic features are not finished and/or fixed. Like many things there are mods that address these issues, but that is true for 90% of the issues this game has, and every tiny patch changing the stats on Mules breaks them.

Pathetic.
 
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froggyluv

Grandmaster Knight
NW
Its obvious these developers are all pigeon-holed in their little respective compartments and is only worried about making sure that little compartment is up to a minimum standard. What these team fails to realize is there needs to be an overall vision of the game -who is managing that? There seems to be no over-seer who has a vision and a standard of overall play. This is clearly visible if you followed the whole "Snowballing" attempt at balancing the game. Everyone was caught up with slightly adjusting this variable or that variable to equalize and homogenize everything -squeezing any little bit of character there was outta the game. Great Khuzaits arent the dominate faction anymore -now what? What does that mean for the overall story of this game? nothing. Its just adjusting a technical scale for parity sake. They close that case and forget about anything else once its resolved. Very corporate-like.
 

Ananda_The_Destroyer

Master Knight
Make the NPC lords have to do things *this means moving on the map spending time TW* and have real consequences *this means loosing something TW* for not doing them. If I hunt down an entire faction and carry them around in my prisoners for 5+ years they still have their fief in tact and plenty of money, they even get married and hire mercs while everyone's poisoner. It's so fake and cheaty 🏳️‍🌈👯‍♂️:poop:! They should be having rebellions everywhere, no tax payment from any thing, having absolute no money or man power if they're all in prison for too long. I want to see them completely ruined and unable to function being caught by looter as soon they spawn in thier ruined territory.
And absolutely nothing should happen for the AI npcs without them spending time and money, no remote hiring mercs or marriages or vassals changing faction.

Giving the AI endless cheat Band-Aids to prevent snowballing and pad the game is the worst change they've made.
TW promoted the game saying "NPC will behave just like the player" but then they actually made it much worse the warband, because in warband ruined lords would GO AWAY and some lord would volunteer to join you, neither happen in Bannerlord.

If you want the AI to be more challenging actually program them to be able to use good tactics and strategy.
If you want the game to last longer add more content.
DON'T just make the AI not use any of the game mechanics and have a pile of cheats, that goes against the whole point of playing a game like this.
 

Antaeus

Sergeant at Arms
To quote myself from the neighbour thread...

I'd like....
  • to be able to flag one of my parties to defend my fiefs and not be available to armies.
  • to be able to upgrade my caravans to survive better in the late game.
  • to have a 4th upgrade tier to my city buildings so I can upgrade them further.
  • looter and bandit frequency and size to be untied from player level and tied to fief security level.

Especially the last one...

To add to this... I'd also like for there to be more ease in hiring mercenaries. And yea... if lords actually addressed their issues, cleaned up their bandit caves, did some of their own quests...
 

kweassa

Sergeant at Arms
The game's generally serviceable as it is. It's not perfect, and there could be areas where more detail and polish would be desired, but still serviceable as a game format.

The only real areas that needs major attention, I'd say, would be the diplomacy part -- or lack thereof, both internal and external -- including the utter drag of having to interact personally every time, strife and rivalries of clans being nonexistent, and the flawed end-game phase where it just becomes mandatory for everyone else to declare war on you.

So, no, I wouldn't say this game's a dumpsterfire, since 2 years of these sort of constant rhetoric makes not just the devs feel tired (probably), but actually keeping objective attitude on it as well.
 

five bucks

Knight
So right now Mount and Blade feels a little bit like a Charlie Sheen house party... it starts really well but always ends up with the escorts in tears and half of your friends arrested for possession of cocaine.

More seriously....

We all know that TW will never implement major changes to make late-game good. Like all of us know that they will never make a diplomacy system for Bannerlord with any depth....

So ok, what are the changes COULD Taleworlds make in order to improve end-game? (Maybe smaller changes that wouldn't require months of coding and fresh design?)

- What would be the 'easy wins'?
Biggest layups that would make the most improvement to the soulless, repetitive lategame grind for the least effort:

* Fix armor so that it provides more sensible protection. The current state of armor seriously damages the enjoyment of the game's tactics and combat, and makes engaging in blobfests where you sit at the back feel like a chore. There are mods out there which make armor much more satisfying with just a relatively small amount of code changes. If TW wants to do it more complicated and model lots of variables that's great, but a simple solution that works is also fine as well.

* Make the AI take a bit longer to come back with armies after they have been defeated and released/escaped captivity.

* Reduce the amount of chasing people around (finding clan leaders and mercenary clans so you can convince them to join you or marry your clan members to; going to your many tens of fiefs to do issue quests) the player has to do in the late game. One immersive way of doing this would be to add a minister in the Lord's Hall who can send messages for you to people. Warband had lords actually come visit your court but if that's too hard for TW a message system would be easy, as modders have shown.

* In addition to the above point, change the encyclopaedia so it tells you where the AI was last seen *heading towards* instead of the last place they were seen! Again, Warband did this and it made tracking people down much easier.

* Add a cooldown on AI proposing a war/peace vote repeatedly while the player is ruler. It is incredibly unfun for the AI to constantly drain the player's Influence as we try to stop them making dumb strategic decisions while already at war.

* Forcibly dissolve an AI kingdom after it has held no fiefs for 20 days. All its clans join other factions, or go "into exile outside Calradia" (disappear permanently). Defeated enemies nipping at your heels for eternity raiding your fiefs with small armies they don't actually have the income to afford is very annoying.

* Make Engineering skill easier to acquire and have more effect on the rate of siege camp setup/tower construction. Although many skills need looking at, Engineering is one of the biggest offenders, as with the many sieges the player must do to conquer Calradia in the lategame, there is an enormous amount of time wasted waiting for siege camps to build. If I put focus points into Engineering, then by the lategame it should be very quick and easy to build a siege camp even if I'm not in an army and just have 300 guys.

* Five out of eight factions in the game field very similar army compositions. Make the troop trees more distinct from each other with more clearly defined strengths and weaknesses, so the player has to change their tactics when invading different countries!

There are plenty of other problems which affect the early/mid game but the above are some of the biggest offenders in making the lategame an unfun, boring, dragged out experience. And some of them could be fixed by just changing a single number, e.g. Engineering.



Finally, onto the daydreaming. If TW wanted to make the lategame really fun and satisfying, they could:

* Change the campaign route to be less grindy and drawn out, and more climactic. Instead of painting the whole map in the campaign you should be able to fight one really big, difficult battle in the last stage of the campaign, and have the remainder of the factions surrender to you if you win.

This will make the lategame fun for people who want a shorter and not repetitive RPG-like experience.

* Add some form of internal large-scale civil wars or external foreign invasions to the game for sandbox, for players who want to experience a long game and make use of dynastic mechanics and stuff. Give them a credible threat which is there permanently.

This will make the lategame fun for people who want a long lasting Crusader Kings-style experience.
 
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bunions

Regular
Sadly this feels like its very applicable.
The question remains is patch 1.7 the beginning of Taleworld's "pivot" or the end of it?
 
If you play on "realistic" ,the players NEEDS SMART AI and TOUGH AI

IF the player does the Banner Quest, then once the player gets the Dragon Banner there should be a FINAL - WORLD WAR, of all Banner kingdoms V all non-Banner Kingdoms. Once this war is won / lost, then the game ends.

.
 

CrazyElf

Sergeant
* Forcibly dissolve an AI kingdom after it has held no fiefs for 20 days. All its clans join other factions, or go "into exile outside Calradia" (disappear permanently). Defeated enemies nipping at your heels for eternity raiding your fiefs with small armies they don't actually have the income to afford is very annoying.

If you think about it, when clans are facing a faction in rapid decline, they should join you rather than you having to recruit them.

Maybe their traits should count for who defects sooner.
 

five bucks

Knight
If you think about it, when clans are facing a faction in rapid decline, they should join you rather than you having to recruit them.

Maybe their traits should count for who defects sooner.
Yes! This is what you see in many cases in history, for example steppe tribes choosing to join the Mongols after their leadership was defeated.
 

lukkyb

Sergeant
Make the NPC lords have to do things *this means moving on the map spending time TW* and have real consequences *this means loosing something TW* for not doing them. If I hunt down an entire faction and carry them around in my prisoners for 5+ years they still have their fief in tact and plenty of money, they even get married and hire mercs while everyone's poisoner. It's so fake and cheaty 🏳️‍🌈👯‍♂️:poop:! They should be having rebellions everywhere, no tax payment from any thing, having absolute no money or man power if they're all in prison for too long. I want to see them completely ruined and unable to function being caught by looter as soon they spawn in thier ruined territory.
And absolutely nothing should happen for the AI npcs without them spending time and money, no remote hiring mercs or marriages or vassals changing faction.

Giving the AI endless cheat Band-Aids to prevent snowballing and pad the game is the worst change they've made.
TW promoted the game saying "NPC will behave just like the player" but then they actually made it much worse the warband, because in warband ruined lords would GO AWAY and some lord would volunteer to join you, neither happen in Bannerlord.

If you want the AI to be more challenging actually program them to be able to use good tactics and strategy.
If you want the game to last longer add more content.
DON'T just make the AI not use any of the game mechanics and have a pile of cheats, that goes against the whole point of playing a game like this.
while i agree with this it shouldnt be so bad that an empire can be crippled the whole game by sending them into an economic death spiral they should while at peace and as you said with a bit of time be able to fix most of the rebellion issues and money issues.

im not saying they should be as strong as before but it shouldnt be one good war and bam that faction is out game over otherwise we have snowball 2.0
 
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